159 réponses à ce sujet

[Asante81]

If you think about it... that codex entry of Anora in combination with Loghains paranoia should have ended in him having her executed for treason... you know, being admired by the Empress...

[Darth_Trethon]

Curlain wrote...

Have read it, and it was Maric who began initating peace with the Orlaisians (who was there right with Loghian fighting them). The darkspawn threaten everyone, if they take over in Ferelden, then Orlais will be next, so it has just as much reason to see the darkspawn gone. With the Felerden army around them, and other forces throughout Ferelden I don't see the Orliasn force on it's own taking over Ferelden. But Loghain in his grown paranoia saw everything as an Orlaisian plot (even the Grey Wardens), he was never able to get over the rape and murder of his mother, and for him even the remote possiblity of Orlais re-occupation took precidence over everything, even the actual, very real and worse threat of the Blight occuring in the middle of Ferelden

The point is their rulers are worse than dwarven politics. Plust they tried another takeover of Ferelden in The Calling when Loghain stopped them again. Do the darkspawn threaten everyone? Yes....but the riscs of the orlesians trying an invasion right arfter the blight is too high and having them inside watching your back is like begging them to backstab you. Orlesians are wose than Loghain and Howe combined a dozen times over.....at least all their rulersv are and their rulers would control whater "helping" troops they would send.

[Darth_Trethon]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

I'm not involved in this whole debate but I am tired of you and your circle jerking.

No where in the ending I got for him imply that he doesn't rule. It says that doesn't like it. Nowhere does it say that only the commoners like him. It said he was popular. That could mean everyone. That could mean the rats. It does say the commoners said he ruled with a common touch.

Unwilling to govern=doesn't rule....simple as that. Plus he has no noteworthy achievements beyond visiting paesants.

[Asante81]

@ Darth_Trethon: All right, one last thing to that matter. I actually wanted to stop that before and just ignore it, but I thought a bit about it and came to the conclusion that I should maybe explain something.

What upset me about your refusal to question Anoras actions is the simple fact, that you simply ignore any further tought that might besmirch your opinion of her. You see, as a German, there's one thing I learnt at school/in my life: never take anything like that for granted without questioning it. Because simply accepting things like that leads to... I bet you remember... terrible things. And this isn't something only we should learn, but everyone. Staying silent and being inactive is what makes tyrants successful. Do I compare you to someone like that? No, I don't. All I wanted to explain was, why I was infuriated about it. And yes, I do know it's just a game. But you cannot turn something like that simply off. And you shouldn't. (BTW: the first year of the game is a good example for that... people staying silent, including Anora resulted in Loghain playing tyrant.)
So. I was thinking a bit more about Anora (for the last time ). And to be fair: she isn't the worst that could happen to Ferelden. (Yes, I still know it's just a game. Blame the developers to making it so captivating...) I still don't like her lying and backstabbing. I still think she isn't the great person certain aspects of the game make you want to believe. I still don't believe everything stated ingame about her and her reasons. Just because I'm a person who questions things and tries to look behind everything. And she is fishy. Period. I would still choose Alistair over her anytime. And if it is for the single reason of him NOT wanting to become king. And I would still want the option to execute her, for the single reason of "realism". Imagine becoming king and having your rival still sit around somewhere without having renounced any rights to the throne for herself and her children. Not very realistic...
The only thing I wanted was that you admit, that she isn't the perfect manifestation of the Chant's virtues and the best queen/person ever. She is more the slightly evil Warden, referring to the usage of Blood Magic, doing "everything necessary" to get the job done.
I still think it's a convenient excuse for her to say "I couldn't have done anything *innocent girl smile*". If you want to stand up against something, even if it means your death, you can do it.
And I admit, that her thinking that Alistair would be a bad king is in somewhat good intentions, since she doesn't know him. That does not mean he really IS a bad king. That's something you should accept, to be fair

So... done with that now... going back to listening to the creepy selfish woman...

EDIT: making her queen gave me about the same feeling as letting Isolde sacrifice herself for Connor. Not the best thing to do, but not the worst either. Still giving me the feeling of "not having done my best"

Modifié par Asante81, 10 décembre 2009 - 01:33 .

[Thiefy]

I'd love the option to kill anora. actually wasn't this addressed before in another thread. someone asked why there wasn't a cutscene or option for it and someone from bioware gave the resposne there was enough time or resources to include it. while it wasn't as important as killing loghain, it was definately something they were considering.



what bugs me about anora is that it's her way or ....well there is no "or", she will just have it her way and she will do what she deems necessary to get it. doesn't make it 'right' but being morally right isn't her concern. i mean really, who is to say that if you don't make alistair king she couldn't be a trusted advisor like arl eamon? sure he might be whiney, but alistair is not an unreasonable man, nor is he irresponsible. as queen she's had absolute power for 5 years because her husband wasn't interested in governing. instead of doing the right thing and trying to educate him or make him grow up, she just seizes control herself. instead of abdicating even a little power and settling for a position just *slightly* lower than king, if only temporarily to end the blight (alistair could still die after all, or get, i dunno, called off to the grey warden command center), she won't have it, and won't listen to anything than her own opinion. maybe she does truely want what is best for ferelden, but just because she's queen doesn't mean she is always right.

[Ulyn]

"largely unwilling to involve himself in matters of governing" =/= "largely unwilling to involve himself in matters of rule," much less your more ambitious semantic equivalency there. Words matter when all we're doing is parsing text.



The implied criticism here is faint faint stuff unless it's coupled with some actual indication that there was any negative consequence whatsoever to his choice; throughout the history of European monarchy, "uninvolved" kingship meant precisely nothing out of context; it could mean that the King or Queen didn't meddle with their excellent favourite/minister, a Robert Walpole, or it could mean practically the death of the country as a power, as in late-Habsburg Spain under Charles II.



The "Alistair avoids court" end-text is paired up with "Eamon runs the country" text IIRC. That's central. And "Alistair" is one person, whether he's hardened or not, whether he's married to Anora or not. He's got his flaws and the Landsmeet Logain fit reflects poorly on him, but he's dutiful, honourable, earnest, and far less silly and foolish than his humour and that of others imply. (All of the characters suffer from "plot requires that I be dumb/unreasonable syndrome" sometimes; that should be viewed in its context.)



To get that endtext to mean "misrule," you have to assume that the in-game Alistair and the "excellent co-rulers" Alistair are somehow drastically removed from the iteration who visits a lot of towns. For example; with Eamon running things and the land prospering, Alistair could afford to neglect matters of state without consequence. That doesn't imply that, were things going badly, he wouldn't do his duty.



(And, yes, clearly I did like the Alistair character, with some caveats. But even if I didn't, as in the case of Anora, I'd still disagree on principle.)

[Cyberpunk]

I agree with the above poster 100%. If the PC liked Anora so much. Maybe there is a way to side with her in this DLC. We can execute Arl Eamon/Alistair in the end then...

[Xandurpein]

I know I have been part of the Anora vs Alistair debate myself before, but it is getting a bit out of hand I think. Honestly, there is enough things we do not know, to make it impossible for anyone to decide which of them would actually would be the best ruler, even if the unlikely thing happened that we could agree on some sort of yardstick to determine what is a "best ruler". Neither of them could govern Ferelden alone. Which advisors did they have for example?

I have the greatest respect for those who wish to imagine Alistair becoming a wonderful King, either married to the MC, mourning her death forever, or something else. I do not see why facts could forbid it. I would imagine that if King Alistair does not want to involve himself with politics, then he would need some decent advisors to run daily business. Sure, it's a fault in him that could lead him to be open to manipulation, but I don't see why it HAS to end up badly, especially not with a intelligent MC as advisor/spouse/mistress to make up for it.

Conversely, I don't see any evidence that contradicts those who wish to imagine their MC marries Anora and after a rocky start finds respect, love and happiness guiding Ferelden to a bright future together with her. Sure, her somewhat ruthless desire to be queen is a fault in her, but that doesn't have to end up badly. She could even mature, especially with a loving Consort/King/advisor at her side.

I contend that it is perfectly possible to imagine both and that neither expressly contradict facts in the game. Both Alistair and Anora have flaws that could lead to very bad things, under certain circumstances. Both of them also have it in them to become great, even legendary monarchs, under certain circumstances.

It would be a lot easier if we tried to get less defensive, just because someone else's private fantasy of how it actually ended, clashes with your. Otherwise this debate becomes like arguing over whether the MC dies at the end of the game or not.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 10 décembre 2009 - 09:52 .

[Xandurpein]

And for the record. If I played a DLC like this I would probably run around using my maxed coercion to try to defuse the whole situation and make sure no one had to be beheaded at all...

[DarkSpiral]

The OP has an interesting idea. It's unlikely, in the extreme, to become a DLC, as the events would happen after the end of the game, whereas the game clearly states that any future DLC will technically occur inbetween the night the MC and Morrigan (might) conceive a child, and the battle in Denerim with the Archdemon.



But I'd be pleased with a mod that lets us explore the possibility, if that's possible within the game.