742 réponses à ce sujet

[morten n86]

I found her boering in ME1
Strangly she was one of my favorites in ME2 (might be becaus she was the only one with Garrus from ME1.
In ME3 i think she is allright.
but then again i like all the squad m8`s.

[Erield]

Gterror2 wrote...

Weird thing tho, really liked Tali in ME1 and ME2, but in ME3 i find her dull, no offense.

I really liked Tali in ME1, I really liked Tali in ME2, and I also really liked Tali in ME3


@OP:  Out of all of the ME2 squaddies that aren't Mordin, Jack is the one that I'd like to see more of in ME3.  This would not be the case if it weren't for Grissom.  I never had a playthrough in ME2 where I did a full romance of Jack, so my impression might be different if I had, but she seemed fairly simple: tortured and angry at everyone and everything.

In Grissom, she's badass, looking awesome, kicking ass, and has managed to harness her anger into a tool that she uses, instead of something that uses her.  Leashed rage done well is always awesome to see, and I would have loved to see more of it with her as a squaddie.

Here's hoping for a Jack DLC?

[Arlionis]

xsdob wrote...

Why not have both? Tali is actually jack in an enviromental suit, get to work deviant art.

In an ideal world the ME3 squad would have covered all our previous allies, but we live in an non-ideal world and we got a very reduced cast in order to increase the interactions with our crew. In that reduced cast a character that already had two (in my opinion wasted) opportunities to develop was included and many characters that had only one opportunity to develop were left behind. The lack of Jack and Samara really hurt me. 

[OGWS]

Threads like this make me sad

[Unholyknight800]

OGWS wrote...

Threads like this make me sad

Reading other people's opinions and watching people disagree with them makes me sad.

[xsdob]

Arlionis wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Why not have both? Tali is actually jack in an enviromental suit, get to work deviant art.

In an ideal world the ME3 squad would have covered all our previous allies, but we live in an non-ideal world and we got a very reduced cast in order to increase the interactions with our crew. In that reduced cast a character that already had two (in my opinion wasted) opportunities to develop was included and many characters that had only one opportunity to develop were left behind. The lack of Jack and Samara really hurt me. 

Sorry you feel that way but I actually didn't mind how those characters were handled.

I just want to see them at the final battle for earth to see them in action.

[Arlionis]

Iwillbeback wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

Meh Jack was s**t.
Tali is better aside from retarded image used.

Miranda, Samara, Morinth, Legion, Grunt, Wrex, Kasumi and Zaeed all deserved that spot more than Jack.
Jack == Jacob

It's funny how opinions work, I find Tali to be the most boring member in the entire franchise. Jack on the other hand is intriguing, and although she was shown for like a nanosecond in ME3 she showed more development and character progression in those few minutes than Tali during her three games. 

Jack is highly uninteresting.
She's crazy and likes bondage, big deal.
Unlike Tali jack has nothing to add to the story.

Yep, that was the shield ME2 Jack used to try to scare Shepard away, yet in ME3 she showed an amazing personal progression from that point of her life to the one where she actually did a 180º turn and used her own traumatic experience and life to help people like her. That's light years more interesting that: "I'm a talking Codex entry" --> "I'm a desperate virgin nerd" --> "I'm the same than in the other two games". 

Modifié par Arlionis, 15 mai 2012 - 07:32 .

[OGWS]

Unholyknight800 wrote...

OGWS wrote...

Threads like this make me sad

Reading other people's opinions and watching people disagree with them makes me sad.

Okay

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I'm alright with Tali. But I find her character arc to be lacking. I feel like she's basically the same person as she was between all three games, when there could have been an opportunity for her to "mature" in a way similar to Jack in ME3. In the end, I feel like they just didn't do anything with her.

Issues I had with her in ME3: she's still just a follower. In ME2, she joins you despite Cerberus, even if you've been rude to her (and unlike Liara, how you treated Tali previously is actually carries over between ME1 & 2). You see her lose all the soldiers under her command on two different missions. She continues to go along with Shepard if you rat out her father.

And in ME3 it's more of the same. She's an admiral, but not really. She herself thinks she's not ready to lead, doesn't believe in herself even while someone like Admiral Raan tells her she capable. No, you have to settle a dispute between her and Admiral Xen for her.

And the way she tries to call off the quarian fleet is a little embarassing. "This is Admiral Tali'Zorra, all units hold fire." ... really Tali? You think they'll just listen to you over Gerrell? To settle the matter, it's Shepard to the rescue. Again. Of course, that's if you can settle it. Otherwise, she goes and falls off a cliff to her death.

I'd say it's even rather sad that they make her join up with Shepard yet again in the Rannoch peace resolution. You were just about to run her people through the buzzsaw in favor of glorified security-mechs, and she still trusts you! I get that loyalty is part of her character but there's a point at which it's just ridiculous of her, if you ask me.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 15 mai 2012 - 07:33 .

[Noelemahc]

Am I the only person in the universe who has no issues with the interestingness of squadmates, both past and present, only that there wasn't nearly enough screentime devoted to some of them?

Jack is highly uninteresting.
She's crazy and likes bondage, big deal.

She doesn't like bondage, she has mental trauma.

From a fate perspective, she's the nega-Miranda: they both were artificially shaped to be the perfect human biotic. Miranda was engineered into it and fails. Jack was hammered into it and succeeds... at least as a biotic. Miranda is constantly doubting herself because of her "perfection". Jack prefers to vent everything into hatred and use the hatred to channel biotic energies. Neither had a successful personal life (outside of Shepard, let's assume for a second that our Schrodinger's Shepard romances both of them at the same time without them noticing each other).

With Shepard, Miranda becomes more sure of herself, more determined to fight for a future of her own.

Jack doesn't need to be sure of herself - she coped in the traditional human fashion, with abrasiveness and tattoos (there've been many great analyses written on the fact that she is, with a few overgeneralisations, a picture perfect image of the behaviour of a rape/abuse victim coming to terms with having to continue living in a body that has been violated), Shepard instead provides her with the ability to accept human company -- or any company for that matter -- again. There's a reason hers is the most innocent of finishable romances in ME2 (because, popular opinion to the contrary, having a one-night-stand with her is not the correct way), as it doesn't even carry any sexual undertones or overtones, or whatnot. Garrus's ME2 romance has more sex than Jack's.

So, sorry, I find her to be a well-written interesting character with a sad life.

[Iwillbeback]

Erield wrote...


Here's hoping for a Jack DLC?

It would need to be pretty cheap much like Jack.
I probably would not even even buy it, hell I'd complain to Bioware it is a waste of resources that could go on a better squadmate or character story.

Modifié par Iwillbeback, 15 mai 2012 - 07:33 .

[garrusfan1]

Iwillbeback wrote...

Erield wrote...


Here's hoping for a Jack DLC?

It would need to be pretty cheap much like Jack.
I probably would not even even buy it, hell I'd complain to Bioware it is a waste of resources that could go on a better squadmate or character story.

how dare you LOL nah I would pay a good amount for jack cause she rules

[dublin omega 223]

I liked Tali's character overall, not boring in my opinion and I think that there should have been a lot more squadmates in ME3. Maybe 15 or 16 at most as a combo of ME1, 2 and 3 squadmates. Sadly that did not happen.

[mauro2222]

Jack is ****ing crazy, and actually she's a psychopath. But I love her.
Tali screams "I'm you're cute little princess nerd-boy, take me". But I love her.

[Someone With Mass]

I laugh when people suggest that BioWare should have made every single squadmate a part of the team.

That's about 16 different characters who would all need dialogues in several missions, on the Normandy and a logical reason to go back to the Normandy and a way to get there without it feeling contrived.

The whole game would have been about recruiting squadmembers in that case (just like ME2), and I don't really see how a bunch of people like that can stop the Reapers on their own.

[Iwillbeback]

Arlionis wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

Meh Jack was s**t.
Tali is better aside from retarded image used.

Miranda, Samara, Morinth, Legion, Grunt, Wrex, Kasumi and Zaeed all deserved that spot more than Jack.
Jack == Jacob

It's funny how opinions work, I find Tali to be the most boring member in the entire franchise. Jack on the other hand is intriguing, and although she was shown for like a nanosecond in ME3 she showed more development and character progression in those few minutes than Tali during her three games. 

Jack is highly uninteresting.
She's crazy and likes bondage, big deal.
Unlike Tali jack has nothing to add to the story.

Yep, that was the shield ME2 Jack used to try to scare Shepard away, yet in ME3 she showed an amazing personal progression from that point of her life to the one where she actually did a 180º turn and used her own traumatic experience and life to help people like her. That's light years more interesting that: "I'm a talking Codex entry" --> "I'm a desperate virgin nerd" --> "I'm the same than in the other two games". 

The only thing I seen her do was joining a school to take care and teach kids.
Now she seems to want a family that she wants to take care of and look after which she did not have in her youth.
Interesting.

Don't even compare her to Tali.
Tali has class.

Modifié par Iwillbeback, 15 mai 2012 - 07:39 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

This thread is blasphemous and wrong.

[mauro2222]

Noelemahc wrote...

Am I the only person in the universe who has no issues with the interestingness of squadmates, both past and present, only that there wasn't nearly enough screentime devoted to some of them?

Jack is highly uninteresting.
She's crazy and likes bondage, big deal.

She doesn't like bondage, she has mental trauma.

From a fate perspective, she's the nega-Miranda: they both were artificially shaped to be the perfect human biotic. Miranda was engineered into it and fails. Jack was hammered into it and succeeds... at least as a biotic. Miranda is constantly doubting herself because of her "perfection". Jack prefers to vent everything into hatred and use the hatred to channel biotic energies. Neither had a successful personal life (outside of Shepard, let's assume for a second that our Schrodinger's Shepard romances both of them at the same time without them noticing each other).

With Shepard, Miranda becomes more sure of herself, more determined to fight for a future of her own.

Jack doesn't need to be sure of herself - she coped in the traditional human fashion, with abrasiveness and tattoos (there've been many great analyses written on the fact that she is, with a few overgeneralisations, a picture perfect image of the behaviour of a rape/abuse victim coming to terms with having to continue living in a body that has been violated), Shepard instead provides her with the ability to accept human company -- or any company for that matter -- again. There's a reason hers is the most innocent of finishable romances in ME2 (because, popular opinion to the contrary, having a one-night-stand with her is not the correct way), as it doesn't even carry any sexual undertones or overtones, or whatnot. Garrus's ME2 romance has more sex than Jack's.

So, sorry, I find her to be a well-written interesting character with a sad life.

And now, I love you.

[Baa Baa]

Arlionis wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

Meh Jack was s**t.
Tali is better aside from retarded image used.

Miranda, Samara, Morinth, Legion, Grunt, Wrex, Kasumi and Zaeed all deserved that spot more than Jack.
Jack == Jacob

It's funny how opinions work, I find Tali to be the most boring member in the entire franchise. Jack on the other hand is intriguing, and although she was shown for like a nanosecond in ME3 she showed more development and character progression in those few minutes than Tali during her three games. 

Jack is highly uninteresting.
She's crazy and likes bondage, big deal.
Unlike Tali jack has nothing to add to the story.

Yep, that was the shield ME2 Jack used to try to scare Shepard away, yet in ME3 she showed an amazing personal progression from that point of her life to the one where she actually did a 180º turn and used her own traumatic experience and life to help people like her. That's light years more interesting that: "I'm a talking Codex entry" --> "I'm a desperate virgin nerd" --> "I'm the same than in the other two games". 

Tali isn't the same in all three games. She matures a lot between ME1 and ME2. But yes she is the same in 2 and 3, but then again only 6 months have passed. I wouldn't expect someone's personality to normally change in that time frame.

[Noelemahc]

I feel like she's basically the same person as she was between all three games, when there could have been an opportunity for her to "mature" in a way similar to Jack in ME3. In the end, I feel like they just didn't do anything with her.

There is progress in ME2. She desperately wants to be a better person, but she doesn't have the guts for it. Her first command (on Freedom's Progress) ends with her squad disobeying her orders and dying. Second command? Haestrom. You know as well as I do how that one ends.

She lives in constant pressure from her father's position - she hates him not only for that but, as of ME2, for his experiments and what they did to her internal morality compass. She vents that frustration onto Shepard if you expose her father, remember? "You couldn't understand... human." Or, if you romanced her, when she gets drunk in ME3. "My father would have HATED you."

Sure, she's one of ME's gazillions of father-issues-provide-personal-backstory characters, but most of them have a unique spin because of who the father was.

As for her uselessness as an Admiral, it all boils down to her uncertainty of herself. Being on Shepard's crew hasn't taught her life lessons like it did Garrus (who becomes Turian Shepard whenever he's off the Normandy - either as Archangel or as Special Consultant Vakarian, Reaper Killer Extraordinaire), it only taught her to depend on Shepard to provide the decisions. It's a bit sad, but that's what she is, and that's what makes it a great story - it's believable, because I've known real people who were like that. Sure, she's kind, caring, totally insane about Shepard (seriously, if you're in a love triangle that involves her or take her to Cronos Station, she turns on "clingy jealous" mode very suddenly sometimes; about the only person she doesn't fight is Kaidan, because she can't compete with that, mwahaha), but she's also a bit pathetic in the fact that she genuinely doesn't know what to do with her life.

That said, I still love her. Sure, she's flawed and a bit frelled in the head, but so is everyone else who ever set foot on the Normandy. Vega is, for now, the sanest squad member we've ever had. Jacob used to be there too, until "horny male" set into his brain. It's actually funny how the "sanest squad member" gets de-sane-itized in the sequels. Kaidan, who fulfilled the role for ME1, is crazy about Shepard of EITHER gender in ME3 in a slightly stalkerish way.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 15 mai 2012 - 07:48 .

[Arlionis]

Iwillbeback wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

Meh Jack was s**t.
Tali is better aside from retarded image used.

Miranda, Samara, Morinth, Legion, Grunt, Wrex, Kasumi and Zaeed all deserved that spot more than Jack.
Jack == Jacob

It's funny how opinions work, I find Tali to be the most boring member in the entire franchise. Jack on the other hand is intriguing, and although she was shown for like a nanosecond in ME3 she showed more development and character progression in those few minutes than Tali during her three games. 

Jack is highly uninteresting.
She's crazy and likes bondage, big deal.
Unlike Tali jack has nothing to add to the story.

Yep, that was the shield ME2 Jack used to try to scare Shepard away, yet in ME3 she showed an amazing personal progression from that point of her life to the one where she actually did a 180º turn and used her own traumatic experience and life to help people like her. That's light years more interesting that: "I'm a talking Codex entry" --> "I'm a desperate virgin nerd" --> "I'm the same than in the other two games". 

The only thing I seen her do was joining a school to take care and teach kids.
Now she seems to want a family that she wants to take care of and look after which she did not have in her youth.
Interesting.

Don't even compare her to Tali.
Tali has class.

Yep, that's called character progression, Jack progressed, Tali was shoved into my face during the last three games and she did not progress even an inch, in ME3 she was still the "genius engineer" and now "precocious admiral" Mary Sue character she was from the very beginning. 

[garrusfan1]

mauro2222 wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

Am I the only person in the universe who has no issues with the interestingness of squadmates, both past and present, only that there wasn't nearly enough screentime devoted to some of them?

Jack is highly uninteresting.
She's crazy and likes bondage, big deal.

She doesn't like bondage, she has mental trauma.

From a fate perspective, she's the nega-Miranda: they both were artificially shaped to be the perfect human biotic. Miranda was engineered into it and fails. Jack was hammered into it and succeeds... at least as a biotic. Miranda is constantly doubting herself because of her "perfection". Jack prefers to vent everything into hatred and use the hatred to channel biotic energies. Neither had a successful personal life (outside of Shepard, let's assume for a second that our Schrodinger's Shepard romances both of them at the same time without them noticing each other).

With Shepard, Miranda becomes more sure of herself, more determined to fight for a future of her own.

Jack doesn't need to be sure of herself - she coped in the traditional human fashion, with abrasiveness and tattoos (there've been many great analyses written on the fact that she is, with a few overgeneralisations, a picture perfect image of the behaviour of a rape/abuse victim coming to terms with having to continue living in a body that has been violated), Shepard instead provides her with the ability to accept human company -- or any company for that matter -- again. There's a reason hers is the most innocent of finishable romances in ME2 (because, popular opinion to the contrary, having a one-night-stand with her is not the correct way), as it doesn't even carry any sexual undertones or overtones, or whatnot. Garrus's ME2 romance has more sex than Jack's.

So, sorry, I find her to be a well-written interesting character with a sad life.

And now, I love you.

if she was your LI in me2 she becomes more mature with you

[Iwillbeback]

Arlionis wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

Iwillbeback wrote...

Meh Jack was s**t.
Tali is better aside from retarded image used.

Miranda, Samara, Morinth, Legion, Grunt, Wrex, Kasumi and Zaeed all deserved that spot more than Jack.
Jack == Jacob

It's funny how opinions work, I find Tali to be the most boring member in the entire franchise. Jack on the other hand is intriguing, and although she was shown for like a nanosecond in ME3 she showed more development and character progression in those few minutes than Tali during her three games. 

Jack is highly uninteresting.
She's crazy and likes bondage, big deal.
Unlike Tali jack has nothing to add to the story.

Yep, that was the shield ME2 Jack used to try to scare Shepard away, yet in ME3 she showed an amazing personal progression from that point of her life to the one where she actually did a 180º turn and used her own traumatic experience and life to help people like her. That's light years more interesting that: "I'm a talking Codex entry" --> "I'm a desperate virgin nerd" --> "I'm the same than in the other two games". 

The only thing I seen her do was joining a school to take care and teach kids.
Now she seems to want a family that she wants to take care of and look after which she did not have in her youth.
Interesting.

Don't even compare her to Tali.
Tali has class.

Yep, that's called character progression, Jack progressed, Tali was shoved into my face during the last three games and she did not progress even an inch, in ME3 she was still the "genius engineer" and now "precocious admiral" Mary Sue character she was from the very beginning. 

How many Mary Sue's can you have in a game.
Tali is her own person and if you don't like her why don't you just kill her off.
Nothing stopping you from doing that, apart from the Freedom's progress I think it may be possible to skip her completely.


She was not shoved onto you.

Modifié par Iwillbeback, 15 mai 2012 - 07:48 .

[Noelemahc]

How many Mary Sue's can you have in a game have.
Tali is her own person and if you don't like her why don't you just kill her off.
Nothing stopping you from doing that, apart from the Freedom's progress I think it may be possible to skip her completely.

Ayup, she's skippable in ME2, just as Garrus and Wrex are in ME1 (you have to pick one of them, but you don't need to have both).

And, AFAIK, the MEverse is good at tearing their Mary Sues a new one every time they get too Suey. Miranda has her world fall apart on her, the infertility is just icing on the cake of woes. Tali is, as I've outlined above, purposeless; Ashley is eaten by paranoia; Liara can be abused in ME1 (go to Therum after Virmire, if you hate Liara, you'll get your rocks off, I promise, although that will make you miss the "Mother, what would you have me do?" monologue, which is AWESOME and vindicates her character seven ways to Sunday) and Thessia is one big series of gut punches for her, especially if Javik is in your party.

I have no issues with character writing for squadmates, really. Well, except for the ridiculous reasons Joker gives for why you can't romance HIM, but hey, we can't have everything.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 15 mai 2012 - 07:53 .

[Someone With Mass]

Arlionis wrote...

Yep, that's called character progression, Jack progressed, Tali was shoved into my face during the last three games and she did not progress even an inch, in ME3 she was still the "genius engineer" and now "precocious admiral" Mary Sue character she was from the very beginning. 

Okay, Tali is far from being a Mary Sue. She's fanservice. As every other character.

She progressed from being a naive pilgrim to a woman with a better understanding of people and certain events.

While I don't think everything about her progression is flawless, it's still moving.