742 réponses à ce sujet

[Unschuld]

I think Jack was lost on the suicide mission at a high ratio for other reasons. Reasons which may or may not have been intentional.

[Bocks]

You should be angry that they didn't have Jack in regardless of Tali being in or not.

[alec1898]

Kaelef wrote...

This will all end in tears, I just know it.

Expected.

Whatever, guy's entitled to his opinion. At first the fanboi in me was like "No wai, RAAAAAAAAAAAGEEE"

But then the realist took over and I mean, people will have their opinions, and I respect them. Whether or not I agree with them is moot. That's what makes it a good debate.

OT: In my honest opinion, this is all because BW didn't want to spend time on bringing back characters to the squad, so you get less time with them ME2 squaddies. It's so stupid, the reasons they couldn't be on the Normandy were total cop-outs by Bioware.

[Arlionis]

Unschuld wrote...

I think Jack was lost on the suicide mission at a high ratio for other reasons. Reasons which may or may not have been intentional.

They're about the same (1:4 death ratio), the amount of character deaths in ME2 was released in the iOS app The Final Hours of ME3. Jacob survived in almost 95% of the saves. 

[incinerator950]

ReXspec wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

No, Javik has no greater purpose now, they cut that out. Now he's just a recycled novelty character.

Outside of Shepard and Liara, who of the ME3 squadmates actually HAS a greater purpose?

None of them.  EDI and Garrus have one mission each where they have significance, and Tali has two because she's forced to help you.  Hell, Xen made a better character contribution then Tali for the short time you could use her.

Well, that's a great point, not only was Xen a much more useful as a squad member (Xen has Overload, Cryo Blast, and Sticky Grenades and also she uses a Sniper Rifle and Shotguns) but she's also more interesting as a character. For example, both, Xen and Tali, are disturbingly racist, both of them hate the Geth to irrational levels, yet while Tali tries to hide it (and fails misserably at it, like when she gets angry because you call legion "him" instead of "it" in ME3) Xen doesn't even care, and she's way too honest about her hatred and motives to the point she convinced herself she has the moral highground. The way she laughs everytime she kills a prime is even scary. That adds a lot more depth to her character. 

Xen is obsessed and has shown no signs of character development, whereas Tali turned from a typical Quarian attitude of blatantly hating the Geth, to seeing them in a completely different light.

Take the scene on Rannoch, for example:

Legion:  "Do you remember the question that we asked at that beginning? 'Does this unit have a soul?'"

-after much dialogue and man-tears-

Tali:  "...The answer to your question... is yes."

That shows character development on quite a dramatic level.  To call her "disturbingly racist" is entirely unfair.  Especially after adding further insult to injury by comparing her to Daro'Xen who is borderline INSANE.

What?  Xen wasn't shown to be insane in ME 2 at all.  In ME 3, she is labled eccentric but necisary.  You won't find out how insane she is because that was cut from the game.  Also, Tali is still Racist.  She admits she would have killed the Geth without a second thought.  She might agree with Legion, but she'll still label them as untrustworthy AI's when given the chance.  

Tali is like Ashley, only given a little more chance because of the Talimancers, she's not even supposed to be here. 

[ReXspec]

alec1898 wrote...

Kaelef wrote...

This will all end in tears, I just know it.

Expected.

Whatever, guy's entitled to his opinion. At first the fanboi in me was like "No wai, RAAAAAAAAAAAGEEE"

But then the realist took over and I mean, people will have their opinions, and I respect them. Whether or not I agree with them is moot. That's what makes it a good debate.

OT: In my honest opinion, this is all because BW didn't want to spend time on bringing back characters to the squad, so you get less time with them ME2 squaddies. It's so stupid, the reasons they couldn't be on the Normandy were total cop-outs by Bioware.

Respecting opinion is one thing, but making wild assumption while ignoring evidence is entirely another and makes me grind my teeth, to say the least.

[Swimming Ferret]

I would have preferred Jack over EDI/VS. :|

[ReXspec]

incinerator950 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

No, Javik has no greater purpose now, they cut that out. Now he's just a recycled novelty character.

Outside of Shepard and Liara, who of the ME3 squadmates actually HAS a greater purpose?

None of them.  EDI and Garrus have one mission each where they have significance, and Tali has two because she's forced to help you.  Hell, Xen made a better character contribution then Tali for the short time you could use her.

Well, that's a great point, not only was Xen a much more useful as a squad member (Xen has Overload, Cryo Blast, and Sticky Grenades and also she uses a Sniper Rifle and Shotguns) but she's also more interesting as a character. For example, both, Xen and Tali, are disturbingly racist, both of them hate the Geth to irrational levels, yet while Tali tries to hide it (and fails misserably at it, like when she gets angry because you call legion "him" instead of "it" in ME3) Xen doesn't even care, and she's way too honest about her hatred and motives to the point she convinced herself she has the moral highground. The way she laughs everytime she kills a prime is even scary. That adds a lot more depth to her character. 

Xen is obsessed and has shown no signs of character development, whereas Tali turned from a typical Quarian attitude of blatantly hating the Geth, to seeing them in a completely different light.

Take the scene on Rannoch, for example:

Legion:  "Do you remember the question that we asked at that beginning? 'Does this unit have a soul?'"

-after much dialogue and man-tears-

Tali:  "...The answer to your question... is yes."

That shows character development on quite a dramatic level.  To call her "disturbingly racist" is entirely unfair.  Especially after adding further insult to injury by comparing her to Daro'Xen who is borderline INSANE.

What?  Xen wasn't shown to be insane in ME 2 at all.  In ME 3, she is labled eccentric but necisary.  You won't find out how insane she is because that was cut from the game.  Also, Tali is still Racist.  She admits she would have killed the Geth without a second thought.  She might agree with Legion, but she'll still label them as untrustworthy AI's when given the chance.  

Tali is like Ashley, only given a little more chance because of the Talimancers, she's not even supposed to be here. 

Xen considers the Geth little more then tools, and she wants to restore the Geth back to servitude--she even STATES this in ME2 and implies it in ME3.  Tali wants to go to war with the Geth in ME2, but changes her tune in ME3.  She MOURNS Legion, for Christ sake.  Not like Xen who would probably mourn Legion in the same way a carpenter mourns the loss of his favorite hammer.

[JyrikGauldy]

Some of tali's dialouge almost seems left over from when she wasnt a squaddie, like when shepard tried to convince her "to join his cause"......even though she was already on my team...

[RADIUMEYEZ]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

I would have preferred Jack over EDI/VS. :|

I'll agree with that I don't think even used EDI once other than the Cerberus headquarters mission.

[Arlionis]

ReXspec wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

No, Javik has no greater purpose now, they cut that out. Now he's just a recycled novelty character.

Outside of Shepard and Liara, who of the ME3 squadmates actually HAS a greater purpose?

None of them.  EDI and Garrus have one mission each where they have significance, and Tali has two because she's forced to help you.  Hell, Xen made a better character contribution then Tali for the short time you could use her.

Well, that's a great point, not only was Xen a much more useful as a squad member (Xen has Overload, Cryo Blast, and Sticky Grenades and also she uses a Sniper Rifle and Shotguns) but she's also more interesting as a character. For example, both, Xen and Tali, are disturbingly racist, both of them hate the Geth to irrational levels, yet while Tali tries to hide it (and fails misserably at it, like when she gets angry because you call legion "him" instead of "it" in ME3) Xen doesn't even care, and she's way too honest about her hatred and motives to the point she convinced herself she has the moral highground. The way she laughs everytime she kills a prime is even scary. That adds a lot more depth to her character. 

Xen is obsessed and has shown no signs of character development, whereas Tali turned from a typical Quarian attitude of blatantly hating the Geth, to seeing them in a completely different light.

Take the scene on Rannoch, for example:

Legion:  "Do you remember the question that we asked at that beginning? 'Does this unit have a soul?'"

-after much dialogue and man-tears-

Tali:  "...The answer to your question... is yes."

That shows character development on quite a dramatic level.  To call her "disturbingly racist" is entirely unfair.  Especially after adding further insult to injury by comparing her to Daro'Xen who is borderline INSANE.

What?  Xen wasn't shown to be insane in ME 2 at all.  In ME 3, she is labled eccentric but necisary.  You won't find out how insane she is because that was cut from the game.  Also, Tali is still Racist.  She admits she would have killed the Geth without a second thought.  She might agree with Legion, but she'll still label them as untrustworthy AI's when given the chance.  

Tali is like Ashley, only given a little more chance because of the Talimancers, she's not even supposed to be here. 

Xen considers the Geth little more then tools, and she wants to restore the Geth back to servitude--she even STATES this in ME2 and implies it in ME3.  Tali wants to go to war with the Geth in ME2, but changes her tune in ME3.  She MOURNS Legion, for Christ sake.  Not like Xen who would probably mourn Legion in the same way a carpenter mourns the loss of his favorite hammer.

She doesn't change anything, she actually shows having no personality or will of her own by voting in favour of going to war if you supported it in ME2, or voting against going to war if you didn't support it in ME2. A character without any self resolve and personality of its own is a boring character. 

[JyrikGauldy]

Unschuld wrote...

I think Jack was lost on the suicide mission at a high ratio for other reasons. Reasons which may or may not have been intentional.

Its because settling the dispute between her and miranda is extremly difficult, and most people would choose to side with miranda

Modifié par JyrikGauldy, 15 mai 2012 - 09:39 .

[RADIUMEYEZ]

[Swimming Ferret]

ReXspec wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...



What?  Xen wasn't shown to be insane in ME 2 at all.  In ME 3, she is labled eccentric but necisary.  You won't find out how insane she is because that was cut from the game.  Also, Tali is still Racist.  She admits she would have killed the Geth without a second thought.  She might agree with Legion, but she'll still label them as untrustworthy AI's when given the chance.  

Tali is like Ashley, only given a little more chance because of the Talimancers, she's not even supposed to be here. 

Xen considers the Geth little more then tools, and she wants to restore the Geth back to servitude--she even STATES this in ME2 and implies it in ME3.  Tali wants to go to war with the Geth in ME2, but changes her tune in ME3.  She MOURNS Legion, for Christ sake.  Not like Xen who would probably mourn Legion in the same way a carpenter mourns the loss of his favorite hammer.

Uh, Tali quite bluntly says she would have killed all the geth with no regrets if you speak to her after making peace between the geth and the quarians on the normandy. That's not really changing her tune.

Modifié par Swimming Ferret, 15 mai 2012 - 09:40 .

[ReXspec]

Arlionis wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

No, Javik has no greater purpose now, they cut that out. Now he's just a recycled novelty character.

Outside of Shepard and Liara, who of the ME3 squadmates actually HAS a greater purpose?

None of them.  EDI and Garrus have one mission each where they have significance, and Tali has two because she's forced to help you.  Hell, Xen made a better character contribution then Tali for the short time you could use her.

Well, that's a great point, not only was Xen a much more useful as a squad member (Xen has Overload, Cryo Blast, and Sticky Grenades and also she uses a Sniper Rifle and Shotguns) but she's also more interesting as a character. For example, both, Xen and Tali, are disturbingly racist, both of them hate the Geth to irrational levels, yet while Tali tries to hide it (and fails misserably at it, like when she gets angry because you call legion "him" instead of "it" in ME3) Xen doesn't even care, and she's way too honest about her hatred and motives to the point she convinced herself she has the moral highground. The way she laughs everytime she kills a prime is even scary. That adds a lot more depth to her character. 

Xen is obsessed and has shown no signs of character development, whereas Tali turned from a typical Quarian attitude of blatantly hating the Geth, to seeing them in a completely different light.

Take the scene on Rannoch, for example:

Legion:  "Do you remember the question that we asked at that beginning? 'Does this unit have a soul?'"

-after much dialogue and man-tears-

Tali:  "...The answer to your question... is yes."

That shows character development on quite a dramatic level.  To call her "disturbingly racist" is entirely unfair.  Especially after adding further insult to injury by comparing her to Daro'Xen who is borderline INSANE.

What?  Xen wasn't shown to be insane in ME 2 at all.  In ME 3, she is labled eccentric but necisary.  You won't find out how insane she is because that was cut from the game.  Also, Tali is still Racist.  She admits she would have killed the Geth without a second thought.  She might agree with Legion, but she'll still label them as untrustworthy AI's when given the chance.  

Tali is like Ashley, only given a little more chance because of the Talimancers, she's not even supposed to be here. 

Xen considers the Geth little more then tools, and she wants to restore the Geth back to servitude--she even STATES this in ME2 and implies it in ME3.  Tali wants to go to war with the Geth in ME2, but changes her tune in ME3.  She MOURNS Legion, for Christ sake.  Not like Xen who would probably mourn Legion in the same way a carpenter mourns the loss of his favorite hammer.

She doesn't change anything, she actually shows having no personality or will of her own by voting in favour of going to war if you supported it in ME2, or voting against going to war if you didn't support it in ME2. A character without any self resolve and personality of its own is a boring character. 

If you understood the political reasons WHY she voted going for the war, or listened to her when she was explaining WHY she did it, she didn't want to divide the fleet in a time where a fleet division could mean the difference between survival or extinction of the entire Quarian race.  She knew the war would lead to the extinction of her people--and she didn't want the war in the first place because Legion showed her a new perspective on the Geth as sapient beings.  She states this.  Where were you during the whole course of that conversation?  Fantasizing on how Tali would look after she made the jump off the cliff?

Modifié par ReXspec, 15 mai 2012 - 09:42 .

[incinerator950]

Arlionis wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

No, Javik has no greater purpose now, they cut that out. Now he's just a recycled novelty character.

Outside of Shepard and Liara, who of the ME3 squadmates actually HAS a greater purpose?

None of them.  EDI and Garrus have one mission each where they have significance, and Tali has two because she's forced to help you.  Hell, Xen made a better character contribution then Tali for the short time you could use her.

Well, that's a great point, not only was Xen a much more useful as a squad member (Xen has Overload, Cryo Blast, and Sticky Grenades and also she uses a Sniper Rifle and Shotguns) but she's also more interesting as a character. For example, both, Xen and Tali, are disturbingly racist, both of them hate the Geth to irrational levels, yet while Tali tries to hide it (and fails misserably at it, like when she gets angry because you call legion "him" instead of "it" in ME3) Xen doesn't even care, and she's way too honest about her hatred and motives to the point she convinced herself she has the moral highground. The way she laughs everytime she kills a prime is even scary. That adds a lot more depth to her character. 

Xen is obsessed and has shown no signs of character development, whereas Tali turned from a typical Quarian attitude of blatantly hating the Geth, to seeing them in a completely different light.

Take the scene on Rannoch, for example:

Legion:  "Do you remember the question that we asked at that beginning? 'Does this unit have a soul?'"

-after much dialogue and man-tears-

Tali:  "...The answer to your question... is yes."

That shows character development on quite a dramatic level.  To call her "disturbingly racist" is entirely unfair.  Especially after adding further insult to injury by comparing her to Daro'Xen who is borderline INSANE.

What?  Xen wasn't shown to be insane in ME 2 at all.  In ME 3, she is labled eccentric but necisary.  You won't find out how insane she is because that was cut from the game.  Also, Tali is still Racist.  She admits she would have killed the Geth without a second thought.  She might agree with Legion, but she'll still label them as untrustworthy AI's when given the chance.  

Tali is like Ashley, only given a little more chance because of the Talimancers, she's not even supposed to be here. 

Xen considers the Geth little more then tools, and she wants to restore the Geth back to servitude--she even STATES this in ME2 and implies it in ME3.  Tali wants to go to war with the Geth in ME2, but changes her tune in ME3.  She MOURNS Legion, for Christ sake.  Not like Xen who would probably mourn Legion in the same way a carpenter mourns the loss of his favorite hammer.

She doesn't change anything, she actually shows having no personality or will of her own by voting in favour of going to war if you supported it in ME2, or voting against going to war if you didn't support it in ME2. A character without any self resolve and personality of its own is a boring character. 

If she becomes an Admiral, she'll actually side with Koris.  This is probably if you convince her and Legion to work out their differences.  However, mourning or no, she doesn't change, and if you explicitely ask her about the Geth after peace, she will state she would kill them without a second thought if Shepard hadn't intervened.  

Again, Shepard is the defining presence that makes an impact in the game, the other characters only add to it, or not.

[incinerator950]

JyrikGauldy wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

I think Jack was lost on the suicide mission at a high ratio for other reasons. Reasons which may or may not have been intentional.

Its because settling the dispute between her and miranda is extremly difficult, and most people would choose to side with miranda

Really?  ME 2 is exceptionally easy for a Renegon playthrough.

[Wulfram]

My only problem with Tali is that she really doesn't convince as an Admiral.  She never makes that title much of a reality, which makes her look weak.  I much prefer when she's been exiled - without the burden of the inappropriate title you can see her strength.

Swimming Ferret wrote...

Uh, Tali quite bluntly says she would have killed all the geth with no regrets if you speak to her after making peace between the geth and the quarians on the normandy. That's not really changing her tune.

And she also says that she'd have been wrong.

Modifié par Wulfram, 15 mai 2012 - 09:51 .

[Apathy1989]

Go look at the romance forum. Tali is the most popular character. Personally I think she is also one of the most interesting throughout the series, showing good character development.

Jack also has alot of good character development though, I would have liked to have her as a squaddie. Just let me leave Vaga on earth and take Jack.

[ReXspec]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...



What?  Xen wasn't shown to be insane in ME 2 at all.  In ME 3, she is labled eccentric but necisary.  You won't find out how insane she is because that was cut from the game.  Also, Tali is still Racist.  She admits she would have killed the Geth without a second thought.  She might agree with Legion, but she'll still label them as untrustworthy AI's when given the chance.  

Tali is like Ashley, only given a little more chance because of the Talimancers, she's not even supposed to be here. 

Xen considers the Geth little more then tools, and she wants to restore the Geth back to servitude--she even STATES this in ME2 and implies it in ME3.  Tali wants to go to war with the Geth in ME2, but changes her tune in ME3.  She MOURNS Legion, for Christ sake.  Not like Xen who would probably mourn Legion in the same way a carpenter mourns the loss of his favorite hammer.

Uh, Tali quite bluntly says she would have killed all the geth with no regrets if you speak to her after making peace between the geth and the quarians on the normandy. That's not really changing her tune.

If you were put in her position, who would you choose?  The survival of the Geth?  Or the survival of your own race?  The Admiralty bottlenecked her into a political situation that forced a kill or be killed attitude on her behalf.  Would she kill the Geth without a second thought?  Yes.  She has to.  Hesitation means extinction for her race.  Does she regret it?  Of course.  She has already expressed it.

Modifié par ReXspec, 15 mai 2012 - 09:52 .

[Apathy1989]

JyrikGauldy wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

I think Jack was lost on the suicide mission at a high ratio for other reasons. Reasons which may or may not have been intentional.

Its because settling the dispute between her and miranda is extremly difficult, and most people would choose to side with miranda

I don't understand why anyone would side with Miranda. She is an annoying cerberus cheerleader until after the collector base.

[Arlionis]

incinerator950 wrote...

JyrikGauldy wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

I think Jack was lost on the suicide mission at a high ratio for other reasons. Reasons which may or may not have been intentional.

Its because settling the dispute between her and miranda is extremly difficult, and most people would choose to side with miranda

Really?  ME 2 is exceptionally easy for a Renegon playthrough.

Indeed, I found that out during my second run with ME2. 

[grey_wind]

Why on earth are we fighting over characters from previous games who are all loved by different sections of the fanbase and who all deserved to return?
Why the hell is nobody complaining that two potential spots on the squad were given to James "I treat everybody as though they have amnesia" Vega (who gets 0 character development in ME3) and the goddamn Sexbot? Or Javik, a stellar character but one whose presence is contrived at best and contributes absolutely nothing to the plot?

[Pekkan]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

Uh, Tali quite bluntly says she would have killed all the geth with no regrets if you speak to her after making peace between the geth and the quarians on the normandy. That's not really changing her tune.

If you actually side with quarians and geth are destroyed she says this
http://www.youtube.c...y8NrFd0#t=4m45s 
My people are celebrating. It's all one perfect victory for them. And all we had to do was murder an ally. A... friend. 

Modifié par Pekkan, 15 mai 2012 - 09:57 .

[Apathy1989]

grey_wind wrote...

Why on earth are we fighting over characters from previous games who are all loved by different sections of the fanbase and who all deserved to return?
Why the hell is nobody complaining that two potential spots on the squad were given to James "I treat everybody as though they have amnesia" Vega (who gets 0 character development in ME3) and the goddamn Sexbot? Or Javik, a stellar character but one whose presence is contrived at best and contributes absolutely nothing to the plot?

Fact is that if everyone dies, including the VS, then vaga and EDI are all you have left.

Biowares mistake was making everyone die on the suicide mission. Should have made it so either failure, or half survive - and this half can be developed in ME3 as squaddies.