294 réponses à ce sujet

[Johcande XX]

To the OP; do you actually think that game devs anywhere will give up the freedom they have from zero accountability to fans?

As it stands right now, these devs have accountability to their bosses, who are accountable to their shareholders who only see revenue a franchise can potentially bring in. Us, as individuals, are nowhere in that equation, only our money is.

Your asking that devs also become accountable to the fanbase for the parts of a franchise that each of them are directly responsible for. It isn't going to happen, and any attempt of devs to show their hand in other companies are just trying to show how "in-touch" with the fanbase they are.

[FodoSatoru]

Zuka999 wrote...

FodoSatoru wrote...

Bathaius wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The same people responsible for Tuchanka plot are working on the EC.

Have a little faith.

It is hard to have faith in an extended cut which has been stated to change nearly nothing that caused to outrage against the original ending in the first place.

Many people are upset because the endings are cryptic and without much visual variety. They are going to change that. Also, there is a good chance they will include some scenes with war assets in action, which is another aspect fans complain about.

How can this possibly fix the things they did at the end which can only be explained by magic and handwaving? How can this make up for the terrible presentation of the Catalyst? Unless they change those things drastically they will always be terrible. The worst thing about it is that this was written exclusively by Mac and Casey without input, and now the team has to work around it and try to make it make sense somehow. You don't do that with writing, you always start with a good foundation and build around that. 

If they can pull off fantastic writing based around a terrible foundation, I will be amazed.

Oh, if you are creative, you can work around the sh** and make it interesting. For example, look what Avellone managed to do with SW franchise in KotOR2. I wouldn't be so categorical to claim they are hopeless in their efforts to improve the ending. Sure, it is most probable they will fail, but we don't know that just yet.

[crimzontearz]

we will hear from them when they blog about being assigned to a new project

[NoSpin]

Baa Baa wrote...

They are being hunted down by the Expendables as we speak

I have it on good authority that Chuck Norris romanced Tali AND Liara in ME3. And he wants some damn closure.

[Sublyminal]

crimzontearz wrote...

we will hear from them when they blog about being assigned to a new project

This, they will announce that they're on another project etc.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sublyminal wrote...

Dunno about you but the warning at the top of my page said March 2nd was the date they changed the forum rules, not March 6th or thereafter. So they knew what was about to happen the whole time. They knew the type of ****storm they were starting.

The ****-storm had already started when they made the rule change about making personal attacks on developers. That issue was a reactive, not predictive, rule change.

Here's an idea, hope off their nuts and wipe their spunk out of your eyes and maybe, just maybe you'll be able to see what we see. Damn brown-noser.

Yes, because if someone disagrees, they much be a sycophant for the big bad corporation. It can't be because they actually were on the forums at the time. It has to be sexual submission and degredation.

Sex-obsessed kids.

[crimzontearz]

Sublyminal wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...we will hear from them when they blog about being assigned to a new project

This, they will announce that they're on another project etc.

I would not be surprised in the slightest

[Dean_the_Young]

Johcande XX wrote...

To the OP; do you actually think that game devs anywhere will give up the freedom they have from zero accountability to fans?

As it stands right now, these devs have accountability to their bosses, who are accountable to their shareholders who only see revenue a franchise can potentially bring in. Us, as individuals, are nowhere in that equation, only our money is.

Your asking that devs also become accountable to the fanbase for the parts of a franchise that each of them are directly responsible for. It isn't going to happen, and any attempt of devs to show their hand in other companies are just trying to show how "in-touch" with the fanbase they are.

Considering that 'the fanbase' has tendencies to over-exagerate to the extreme, engage in willful denialism and conspiracy theories, is perpetually in a state of presumed offense, and is so self-contradictory that it can't even agree on what it wants, 'your money' is the best role for you in the equation.

[Muhkida]

They'll say something when the noise is all over. Probably several months to a couple of years when they're talking about their next project

[Sublyminal]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sublyminal wrote...

Dunno about you but the warning at the top of my page said March 2nd was the date they changed the forum rules, not March 6th or thereafter. So they knew what was about to happen the whole time. They knew the type of ****storm they were starting.

The ****-storm had already started when they made the rule change about making personal attacks on developers. That issue was a reactive, not predictive, rule change.

Here's an idea, hope off their nuts and wipe their spunk out of your eyes and maybe, just maybe you'll be able to see what we see. Damn brown-noser.

Yes, because if someone disagrees, they much be a sycophant for the big bad corporation. It can't be because they actually were on the forums at the time. It has to be sexual submission and degredation.

Sex-obsessed kids.

Kids? I assure you son, I am at least 10 years your senior. But enough with that, don't need to feel any older. You have been brown-nosing the **** out of EA and BW since all of this came out.  They knew damned well on March 2nd when they updated the rules, that there was going to be some massive backlash. 


They even tested the goddamn endings with test audiences who said it sucked. (I'm quite sure this is why the changed the rules)  And yet, here you are white knighting them as if they're a princess that needs saving. 


I'm by no means saying don't have an opinion, but to say that we basically had no right to complain by spamming the forums with HTL crap is utter non-sense.

[Sublyminal]

Muhkida wrote...

They'll say something when the noise is all over. Probably several months to a couple of years when they're talking about their next project

More like when they're looking for a new company to join, because they single handedly killed Bioware. 

[4stringwizard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Johcande XX wrote...

To the OP; do you actually think that game devs anywhere will give up the freedom they have from zero accountability to fans?

As it stands right now, these devs have accountability to their bosses, who are accountable to their shareholders who only see revenue a franchise can potentially bring in. Us, as individuals, are nowhere in that equation, only our money is.

Your asking that devs also become accountable to the fanbase for the parts of a franchise that each of them are directly responsible for. It isn't going to happen, and any attempt of devs to show their hand in other companies are just trying to show how "in-touch" with the fanbase they are.

Considering that 'the fanbase' has tendencies to over-exagerate to the extreme, engage in willful denialism and conspiracy theories, is perpetually in a state of presumed offense, and is so self-contradictory that it can't even agree on what it wants, 'your money' is the best role for you in the equation.

The fan base is very clear on what it wants: they want the developers to fulfill the promises that they made (and broke).  If you're fine with being lied to and paying for an inferior product, good for you.  

[Taboo]

Mass Effect is essentially a piece of commercial art. The developers should have taken into consideration what a mainstream audience wanted to see, that included their fanbase.

They have every right not to do it but they should certainly expect a fallour from their nonsense.

The ending is a result of faulty logic, hubris and an inability to realize that everyone on the team matters.

It is THEIR fault that the game turned out this way.

It is the fans fault for the outrage.

But who is more responsible?

[crimzontearz]

Sublyminal wrote...

Muhkida wrote...They'll say something when the noise is all over. Probably several months to a couple of years when they're talking about their next projectMore like when they're looking for a new company to join, because they single handedly killed Bioware. 

here's something I wrote the other day about "restraining" staff on next projects"

now, here is how I see it. Casey and Mac are two of the individuals who need to be restrained, why? Because number 1 they are the leads, number 2 they undoubtedly LIED about a number of things knowingly and lastly I firmly believe' like many others, that yes that alleged post from a Bioware writer condemning the ending was genuine.

Now...let us assume for a moment that Mac and Casey are NOT the sole responsible for the ending, let us assume that there was peer review. Either the majority of the writers were OK with the ending then...I don't know I'd LOVE to know their modus pensandi behind them OR a few people (or most) lifted their hands up and said "uh...guys....this feels like giving a middle finger to the fans" and they were promptly ignored by the leads.

let us add also that at a certain point someone at BW thought it was a GOOD IDEA to sell to EA.....ever heard the saying "historia magistra vitae"?...THOSE people flat out need to be fired...honestly, if anything because they chose to sell to a company that would turn a studio that was the equivalent of the finest Italian gourmet restaurant into a MacDonald's chain."

Modifié par crimzontearz, 16 mai 2012 - 12:34 .

[Sublyminal]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Mass Effect is essentially a piece of commercial art. The developers should have taken into consideration what a mainstream audience wanted to see, that included their fanbase.

They have every right not to do it but they should certainly expect a fallour from their nonsense.

The ending is a result of faulty logic, hubris and an inability to realize that everyone on the team matters.

It is THEIR fault that the game turned out this way.

It is the fans fault for the outrage.

But who is more responsible?

Had they not screwed the ending, the reaction would have never happened. Newton's Law comes into play here.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sublyminal wrote...

Kids? I assure you son, I am at least 10 years your senior.

You sound quite confident about that, when you don't even know my gender.

But enough with that, don't need to feel any older. You have been brown-nosing the **** out of EA and BW since all of this came out.

Since I've repeatedly and regularly criticized them, your definition of brownnosing is so broad as to be meaningless.

 They knew damned well on March 2nd when they updated the rules, that there was going to be some massive backlash.

The backlash had already started. Fans had already started making personal attacks and even threats on various developers by then.

They even tested the goddamn endings with test audiences who said it sucked. (I'm quite sure this is why the changed the rules)

Your memory is faulty: test audiences were mixed on the ending, and not uniformly negative by any means.

And yet, here you are white knighting them as if they're a princess that needs saving.

If your definition of white knighting them is saying that the fanbase was a boiling cauldron incapable of a reasonable discussion at the time, you need to update your definition.

I'm by no means saying don't have an opinion, but to say that we basically had no right to complain by spamming the forums with HTL crap is utter non-sense.

And when you're done tilting at strawmen, perhaps you can address something I've actually said for once?

[Sublyminal]

crimzontearz wrote...

Sublyminal wrote...

Muhkida wrote...They'll say something when the noise is all over. Probably several months to a couple of years when they're talking about their next project

More like when they're looking for a new company to join, because they single handedly killed Bioware. 

here's something I wrote the other day about "restraining" staff on next projects





"now, here is how I see it. Casey and Mac are two of the individuals who need to be restrained, why? Because number 1 they are the leads, number 2 they undoubtedly LIED about a number of things knowingly and lastly I firmly believe' like many others, that yes that alleged post from a Bioware writer condemning the ending was genuine.





Now...let us assume for a moment that Mac and Casey are NOT the sole responsible for the ending, let us assume that there was peer review. Either the majority of the writers were OK with the ending then...I don't know I'd LOVE to know their modus pensandi behind them OR a few people (or most) lifted their hands up and said "uh...guys....this feels like giving a middle finger to the fans" and they were promptly ignored by the leads.





let us add also that at a certain point someone at BW thought it was a GOOD IDEA to sell to EA.....ever heard the saying "historia magistra vitae"?...THOSE people flat out need to be fired...honestly, if anything because they chose to sell to a company that would turn a studio that was the equivalent of the finest Italian gourmet restaurant into a MacDonald's chain."

As I said for $600 million which is what the rumored buy-out was, I'd sell my soul to EA too.

[Kusy]

The game aside... I support the OP's idea that Walters and Hudson should tell us why they simply lied in the media, or (what I believe is possible) why they released information and assured us that it's true, when they themselves were not sure?

It's no longer about the ending. Nobody will even again believe in a single word from any interview with those two guys. They are burnt, they are not reliable sources of information for any fan or gamer who was even mildly interested in the Mass Effect 3 drama. Any statement, any word, anything from Mac Walters or Casey Hudson is the first thing that will raise a bull**** flag for anyone who knows what this is about, and we're not talking our beloved vocal minority, Kotaku, Metacritic, Escapist and many more places made sure we are talking any conscious gamer.

[Taboo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And when you're done tilting at strawmen, perhaps you can address something I've actually said for once?

I have and if you're going to pretend that you are innocent in this debace please, tell us how.

All I have seen from you is an attempt to argue with someone is irrational and in doing so you reveal quite a bit.

The ending is a failure in marketing, artistry and structure.

[Johcande XX]

4stringwizard wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Johcande XX wrote...

To the OP; do you actually think that game devs anywhere will give up the freedom they have from zero accountability to fans?

As it stands right now, these devs have accountability to their bosses, who are accountable to their shareholders who only see revenue a franchise can potentially bring in. Us, as individuals, are nowhere in that equation, only our money is.

Your asking that devs also become accountable to the fanbase for the parts of a franchise that each of them are directly responsible for. It isn't going to happen, and any attempt of devs to show their hand in other companies are just trying to show how "in-touch" with the fanbase they are.

Considering that 'the fanbase' has tendencies to over-exagerate to the extreme, engage in willful denialism and conspiracy theories, is perpetually in a state of presumed offense, and is so self-contradictory that it can't even agree on what it wants, 'your money' is the best role for you in the equation.

The fan base is very clear on what it wants: they want the developers to fulfill the promises that they made (and broke).  If you're fine with being lied to and paying for an inferior product, good for you.  

I'm all for acountability and transparency, and in a perfect world it would be there.  We could look into the credits or post a question to the forum to see who wrote the last 20 lines of dialogue and why they chose that direction.  

I'm just saying that it'll never happen.  Dean isn't entirely wrong, there are far too many people with too many opinions for the system to work; and I would be worried to throw an indivdual to the wolves like that at the risk of their job or worse.

Modifié par Johcande XX, 16 mai 2012 - 12:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

4stringwizard wrote...

The fan base is very clear on what it wants: they want the developers to fulfill the promises that they made (and broke).

The fanbase also can't agree on what the promises mean: exageration of premise has always been a cornerstone of the Mass Effect advertising for all the games, and people have frequently given Bioware a pass for past ones. What actually matters to people differs by the person, the same as what they felt they were 'lied' about.

Collective issues sound all unified and have solidarity when they're broad, but they quickly fracture under differentiation. You also saw the problem in the Hold the Line movement, which fractured when people couldn't agree what the line actually was: as soon as the Extended Cut was announced, people who had been holding the line for an entirely different ending were suddenly alone as many people were satisfied.

If you're fine with being lied to and paying for an inferior product, good for you. 

Besides that hype-literalism didn't pan out in the first two games either?

[crimzontearz]

[quote]Sublyminal wrote...[quote]As I said for $600 million which is what the rumored buy-out was, I'd sell my soul to EA too.[/quote]





I'd have walked my ass to The MS headquarters and asked them to match it

[Sublyminal]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

*****SNIP****

Forgive me for not quoting you in all the responses, I'm much much much too lazy and hate quote chains.

My reading comprehension is fine, I can pretty much read a statement and know exactly what you really meant by it. So yes even though you never said it in so many words, or in those words to be exact this is exactly what you meant. 


The 95% of the fanbase has been extremely reasonable with these devs, it's pro-enders and people that still have their blinders on and feel the need to defend bioware no matter what. Bioware is not the same company it was when it made BG, or ME1. You can take the blinders off, your posts reek of fanboyism. 

From what I read, a good majority of the test audience thought it downright sucked. So unless you can provide another source, which I will gladly read. Then I have no choice but to go by the one that I read months back. 

Okay, fine maybe not a complete brown-noser but a blind fanboy/girl yes, def. 

[Sublyminal]

[quote]crimzontearz wrote...

[quote]Sublyminal wrote...[quote]As I said for $600 million which is what the rumored buy-out was, I'd sell my soul to EA too.[/quote]





I'd have walked my ass to The MS headquarters and asked them to match it[/quote]


AFAIK they never got the chance to ask anyone else because John Riccitiello, ran the company that owned Bioware to begin with.

[Dean_the_Young]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And when you're done tilting at strawmen, perhaps you can address something I've actually said for once?

I
have and if you're going to pretend that you are innocent in this
debace please, tell us how.

I don't make sexual insinuations as a
first response towards people I disagree with, to start with. I also never claimed that people shouldn't complain about the ending.

All I have seen from you is an attempt to argue with someone is irrational and in doing so you reveal quite a bit.

The ending is a failure in marketing, artistry and structure.

I have never denied such, or claimed otherwise.

I have
disagreed on what the issues are, but have never claimed the endings
were anything but flawed and have even written extensively on what I consider better alternatives for not just the ending, but the game as a whole.

The difference I bring to people is that the issues many of them claim are neither new or unusual: anger about advertising conveniently forgets the over-stated promises of ME1 and ME2, for example, while ignorring issues such as the matters of definition between advertisers and consumers expanding hype on their own.