Beocat wrote...
@RN - While you do have some good points, I think you should step back for a minute and realize that this is video game art, not your standard art that you would see in a gallery. While for some artists, runs of 500 is a low number (for many others it is their standard), in the subset of video game art a run of 500 is actually quite high. I can’t think of any other company off the top of my head that has released an art run of prints to or past this number (statues and the like generally will have much larger but still limited runs). Please, correct me if I am wrong on that as I am always interested in seeing more video game art and it is unlikely that I have seen it all.
Furthermore, the artbook provides proof that the concept art did not include the Normandy. This is similar to saying that you want to buy a print of one of Picasso’s works (or you can insert your favorite modern artist there instead) but someone has cut and paste a picture of Obama or the Galactica or the laughing baby right in the middle of it and signed it Picasso. You begin to look around this gallery and realize that all the art is exactly like a “Where’s Waldo?” picture, because this character (whether it is Obama, or whatever) has been placed into every one of them. Knowing Picasso didn’t draw that originally, would you really still be gung ho about buying the print? We have no information on who or why the concept art was modified, but the fact that it was modified after the fact (proven by the artbook – nifty little book) really means to many people that it is no longer actual concept art. Since it isn’t original art and it isn’t concept art, in theory it is less valuable than if they had just left it as it was. Now, considering value and the easy reproducibility of the lithographs (easy to make your own with access to the right resources) at some point you have to question truly how much you are willing to spend on an item like this. Everyone’s point of no sale is different and each individual has limits to what they are willing to tolerate on an image. You may have less limits than others and that’s okay. I think that what saige was trying to say was that anyone could reproduce a high quality image of the original – it would only lack a signature. The print itself is cheap. What makes these lithographs valuable are the signatures, which in this case we cannot confirm that the man who signed the art is the same man who touched up the image and added some extras in. If it wasn’t, then you are paying for only half an appropriate signature which is unsettling to people.
Who cares if its video game art? Subject matter has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about and I have already stated, I am not going to debate people's subjective opinions on the art itself. The fact that you feel that video game related art is somehow below other art subjects is 100% purely subjective and I couldn't possibly disagree more. Video games and comics are EASILY two of my favorite subjects in regards to art and collecting prints and lithographs. I would estimate that 40% of my collection deals with those 2 subjects alone. In fact, the original work and prints/lithographs I own from Michael Turner alone probably makes up 30% of my entire collection. He is easily my single favorite artist and it was actually his work that really turned me into a serious collector. In other words, my opinion of the art that these 2 fields produce couldn't possibly be more at odds with the opinion you have expressed. That is why its best to just leave subjective feelings/opinions on the art itself at the door. Its utterly pointless debating subjective opinion as everyone has one and everyone is entitled to that opinion. There is no right and there is no wrong when talking about subjective opinion. By the way, you do realize that there is currently an art show going on at the Smithsonian American Art Museum entitled "The Art of Video Games" and that this show actually has art from Mass Effect in it. The Smithsonian is one of the most respected museums in the world and they currently have Mass Effect art hanging on thier walls. So I would keep that in mind when you state that video game art is somehow below regular "gallery" art. Video game related art is a VERY new field of art and it has grown considerably the last 6-7 years, in regards to establishing itself as legitimate an art form as any other. I guarantee this trend will not only continue, it will also continue to speed up. This show at the Smithsonian is just the beginning. Photography once had to endure the same stigma and steroetypes that video game art is now dealing with and look where it is now.
As for the size of the print run, who cares what other video game companies are doing in regards to the size of their print releases. Again, the entire field of video game art is so new that to try and gauge anything as "normal" is completely pointless. There are only a few video game companies even producing prints and lets face it, most haven't been very successful, hence the smaller size of the prints runs. So comparing Bioware's edition sizes to that of other video game companies that are producing prints doesnt make any sense at all. I actually emailed Gearbox Software like 4 weeks back and asked them why they didn't make the edition size larger in regards to their latest print (Claptrap & Lilith) and the response I got was simply that they had no idea that they were going to be that popular. They based the edition size off of the sales they had seen from previous prints, which is completely understandable. They also stated that they will most likely be doubling the size of the next release, in direct response to the success that they had with this latest print. I guarantee that had the prints released from these other gaming companies been as popular as the Mass Effect prints, they too would have edition sizes of at least 500 at this point. Bioware has EASILY been the most successful company thus far in regards to releasing prints and I see absolutely nothing wrong with increasing edition size in direct response to increased demand. I honestly cant believe that there are people out there that have a problem with an edition size of 500 especially given the fact that were talking about a fan base that numbers in the millions. Even the M8 Assault Rifle (Mass Effect replica weapon) that was created by Triforce, which are FAR more expensive ($650.00) and aimed at a much smaller collector base, had an edition size of 500. Mass Effect 2 sold roughly 4.5 million copies for the Xbox, PS3 and PC. So in regards to the ME2 lithos, thats 1 lithograph for every 9000 copies of the game sold. Of course, had it been a bad move, it would have caused print prices to drop and that clearly didn't happen. Even at 500, it was still extremely difficult to get one and the demand was there so again it had no negative effect on prices. It was the right move to make and I agree with Bioware's decision 100%. 300 was simply too small when one looked at the overall level of demand. Changing the edition size to 500 wound up being a positive thing for both Bioware and the collectors.
Proper edition size is a tricky balance that hinges on rarity and demand and there are very clear signs when an improper edition size has been struck. If you make too many prints then it floods the market, which causes a decline in prices and most likely a decline in demand. If you don't make enough prints than they become too hard to get. They get sucked up into people's collections and can actually disappear from the marketplace entirely. This can cause prices to become excessive which can actually shut out a good portion of the collecting population. People simply except that they will never have one as they are too expensive and too hard to come by and they move on to other, more obtainable pieces. You collect prints long enough and you see all of these things first hand. There are also very clear signs when a proper edition size has been struck. First, the prints sell out in a timely manner. If prints are available for too long a period, from the main artist or production company, then there isn't enough demand for the number they produced. Prices stagnate and will most likely wind up decreasing in value. The last 4 prints released for ME2 are a perfect example as they are still available and are now selling at a discounted price. 2nd, prices increase naturally (based on popularity and demand). 3rd, prints are neither too easy to obtain nor too hard to obtain. If your determined to get a print, especially if you are willing to pay a bit extra, you should be able to get one. In regards to the ME2 prints, every aspect of these prints points to the fact that 500 was without question, a proper edition size for the market. In fact, given the prices that we were seeing at the height of thier popularity, one could have easily made the argument that the edition size was too small.
As for the pasting of the Normandy in the picture. You go ahead and get proof that this image was changed without the consent of the original artist and I will unquestionably agree with your position. If it was changed by the artist or with the artists consent, which I guarantee was the case, then I disagree completely with such a position. You yourself correctly referred to the images in the art book as CONCEPT art. Concept art is just that, a concept and MANY concept pieces do in fact change from the concept phase to the final image. Again, I am a big collector of comic based art and I cant even tell you how many concept drawings there are available in the marketplace that are different from the final renderings in the actual comics themselves. In fact, almost every concept piece I own has at least one or two details that are different from the final image that was approved for production. This is a clear case of simply not understanding what a concept piece really is. It is NOT a final work of art. It may wind up becoming that if the artist doesn't make any changes but that is rarely the case. I dont see anywhere on Bioware's site where they suggest that these lithographs are unedited concept drawings. Once again, if this were the case then I would agree with your position 100%. It however is not the case.
Picasso? Here you are claiming that this is JUST video game art yet your now comparing it to a Picasso. Make up your mind. You cant have it both ways. You cant argue that this is just video game art, and thus should be held to a different standard, and then jump in with Picasso comparisons. And for the record, if the changes were made by Picasso himself then I would have no problem buying the images. I am not one of these George Lucas haters that think an artist should never alter his or her own work, especially if that work is just a concept piece. They are the artists and if they feel the need to change a piece....well, who am I to say differently? I may wind up not liking the changes but that doesnt change the fact that its the artists work and he and he alone has the right to do what he wants with it. I don't judge a piece of art based on such criteria. I look at the final piece and if i like it, I buy it. How the artist got to that final image is completely inconsequential to me. And as I stated earlier, I actualy prefer the image with the Normandy. Without it you have no scale to the image whatsoever. The Normandy is the key ship in the entire ME series so it doesnt bother me that its present in many of the images.
As for your final part, about the quality of the image. I completely disagree. Given the massive increase in technology we have seen over recent years, in regards to printers, and the huge drop in prices we have seen recently, anyone out there can obtain the equipment to make high quality prints. I myself own such equipment. In fact, I just purchased a slightly used Epson GS6000 back in December so I now have the ability to make extremely high quality prints that are up to 64" wide. So what? Just because a certain technology is readily avilable doesnt make it cheap. Again, I have been collecting lithographs and prints for over 15 years and I can unequivically tell you that the Mass Effect lithographs are not cheap. They are roughly middle of the road prints. You can get MUCH MUCH cheaper in quality and you can also get significantly higher in quality. Again you cant have it both ways. Here you are arguing that these are just video game prints yet your somehow expecting them to be printed on Japanese Washi paper. According to this line of thinking, someone can go and create the highest quality print possible today. They can use the best handmade papers available the world around, the best quality inks available but if they dont sign the print itself, it suddenly becomes a cheap print. No offence but that is simply not the case.
Dont get me wrong, I agree 100% on the signature issue. Having a signature makes the prints more sought after and they unquestionably add value. I would VASTLY prefer that Bioware release nothing but signed prints. That said, to say that its the signature and only the signature that makes prints valuable is absurd. Yes, they add to the value, sometimes significatnly so, but they are not the sole source of value. There are actually many artists out there who refuse to sign thier work. Many of thier pieces are not only highly sought after but also extremely valuable. Some of the Michael Turner prints that have been released by Aspen MLT dont have signatures, obviously because he died a few years back at the age of 37. Those prints still bring in prices that are comparable to the signed prints. Bioware obviously have thier reasons for not including signatures on the initial ME3 prints. A company doesnt release 25+ signed prints and then suddenly shift to unsigned prints for no reason and I am not going to let that one thing stop me from buying prints I enjoy. I own many prints that dont have signatures. Sure, its preferable to have them but its not a prerequiste for me. First and foremost I collect based off of the image itself and whether or not its a limited edition (I dont collect open edition prints). Everything else, including whether or not a signature is present, is secondary. I am perfectly aware that there are people out there that feel differently and they have just as much right to thier opinion as I have with mine. Nobody is forcing them to buy anything. They can buy the prints they like and pass on the ones they dont like.
iamsaige wrote...
I really don't know what to say to you RighteousNixon...
No
point in arguing with someone that can't understand what your point,
especially on the "internet" as you like to state so much.
I
won't bother explaining it more since Beocat explained it in an other
way, but I'll like to confirm that I have eight of the ME lithos on my
wall and all the rest (other than the recent unsigned ones) in a
portfolio. All originally bought from Treehouse. I very much appreciate
them for what they are, but for me at least, they're no cultural
treasure of the human race.
There is really no need to say anything. The fact that you expressed the opinion you did and then followed that opinion up with a post that openly admits that you own the entire collection of Mass Effect litho's (Except the unsigned prints) says everything. Really, nothing more needs to be said.
As for the last statement, lol. Thats a good one! I dont remember saying anything about Mass Effect prints being cultural treasures of the human race but its all good. I understand perfectly why people play the "putting words into other people's mouths" card. Unfortunatly its an all too common tactic on internet forums to try and appear witty.
Modifié par RighteousNixon, 23 mai 2012 - 06:50 .
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