235 réponses à ce sujet

[Mahrac]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

1. Except that the Turian fleet is not all that superior to the Asari/Salarians. Even if they are not tremendous advantages, they are advantages nonetheless. 
2. Holding a bunch of figureheads without power is more or less irrelevant. The real government is on Thessia and Sur'Kesh.
3. Except that they are not going to be winning every battle, especially against foes which are not much weaker. I've said it once, I'll say it a million times, having a superior military does not mean that you can conquer enemies of near equal strength, or even lesser stength given the correct circumstances, without essentially destroying yourself. It did not work for the Roman Empire, it did not work for France, or Spain, or Austria it did not work for the British nor the Germans, it did not work for the United States, it did not work for the Soviet Union. 

Being the strongest doesn't mean that you can completely dominate your enemies entirely. 

1. They are very superior to the Asari and Salarians

2. Political hostage is Political hostage

3. Given philosophies in war, numbers, ect. the Turians could get them to the point where they would surrender, and win most battles, without destroying themselves. Might continue this tomorrow, might not. night.

[Catamantaloedis]

Mahrac wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

1. Except that the Turian fleet is not all that superior to the Asari/Salarians. Even if they are not tremendous advantages, they are advantages nonetheless. 
2. Holding a bunch of figureheads without power is more or less irrelevant. The real government is on Thessia and Sur'Kesh.
3. Except that they are not going to be winning every battle, especially against foes which are not much weaker. I've said it once, I'll say it a million times, having a superior military does not mean that you can conquer enemies of near equal strength, or even lesser stength given the correct circumstances, without essentially destroying yourself. It did not work for the Roman Empire, it did not work for France, or Spain, or Austria it did not work for the British nor the Germans, it did not work for the United States, it did not work for the Soviet Union. 

Being the strongest doesn't mean that you can completely dominate your enemies entirely. 

1. They are very superior to the Asari and Salarians

2. Political hostage is Political hostage

3. Given philosophies in war, numbers, ect. the Turians could get them to the point where they would surrender, and win most battles, without destroying themselves. Might continue this tomorrow, might not. night.

1. How much superior is very superior? Please estimate how superior they are, and from where you get these estimates. You can't just say "very superior" without any proof. .
2.If I take the mayor of Cincinnati hostage, will that affect the war in Afghanistan?
3. Except the turians don't have superior numbers, and a military which is superior, but not by much. Even if they were greatly superior, still doesn't mean that they can dominate their enemies, or even win. And this is about a war of conplete conquest, not merely achieving a strategic victory. They would also be on the offensive in such a war, which would give a natural advantage to the Council races. 

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 16 mai 2012 - 02:03 .

[alec1898]

Y'all don't know you're reasoning with Mr. Unreasonable himself.

[TheClonesLegacy]

alec1898 wrote...

Y'all don't know you're reasoning with Mr. Unreasonable himself.

Oh believe me I know I just am so Amused by him 

[Catamantaloedis]

alec1898 wrote...

Y'all don't know you're reasoning with Mr. Unreasonable himself.

Except I've refuted every point they made, such that they respond with the likes of "They are very superior".

[II JazB x]

Shanxi was a failure. It was pretty much a human fleet versus a turian scout/patrol force. If the asari and salarians didn't intervene your human-centric self would see first hand Turian Total War.

Regarding your point about how having a better army doesn't mean you dominate, compare the asari's performance on Thessia compared to Palaven. The Turians managed to hold their planet right? Whereas the Asari.....

A better trained army is a huge advantage. You can have all the fleets you want but unless your troops have that determination and resolve in them to fight and cope then those Ships might as well be piloted by baboons. The Turians are the most dominant military-wise simply because their culture is militaristic and as such have better trained and regimented armies, which shows by their performance against the reapers.

Modifié par II JazB x, 16 mai 2012 - 02:15 .

[Catamantaloedis]

II JazB x wrote...

Shanxi was a failure. It was pretty much a human fleet versus a turian scout/patrol force. If the asari and salarians didn't intervene your human-centric self would see first hand Turian Total War.

Cool story? 

That was before humanity's First Contact. We're now considered one of the strongest races in the galaxy, so I don't know what you're suggesting.

[garrusfan1]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

II JazB x wrote...

Shanxi was a failure. It was pretty much a human fleet versus a turian scout/patrol force. If the asari and salarians didn't intervene your human-centric self would see first hand Turian Total War.

Cool story? 

That was before humanity's First Contact. We're now considered one of the strongest races in the galaxy, so I don't know what you're suggesting.

all right we get it your pro cerberus

[Catamantaloedis]

garrusfan1 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

II JazB x wrote...

Shanxi was a failure. It was pretty much a human fleet versus a turian scout/patrol force. If the asari and salarians didn't intervene your human-centric self would see first hand Turian Total War.

Cool story? 

That was before humanity's First Contact. We're now considered one of the strongest races in the galaxy, so I don't know what you're suggesting.

all right we get it your pro cerberus

How long did it take you to figure that out? I thought that the pic of the Illusive Man with the check mark might have clued you in.

[justafan]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

They were only driven to take extraordinary measures because of the massive stupidity on the part of the rest of the galaxy.

True but it doesn't excuse stupidity on Cerberus' part in ME3.  They would lose nothing by operating in secret and letting Shepard build his grand alliance.  If they end up controlling the reapers, who cares how many krogan can reproduce?

I for one blame indoctrination, because the TIM I knew in ME2 would always see the big picture, and realize that why he brought Shep back was to end the Reaper threat and ensure humanity's survival.  He would have realized that had he been unable to control the reapers for whatever reason, then Shepard and his fleets would have been the ultimate failsafe, and would maximize humanity's chances.

[garrusfan1]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

II JazB x wrote...

Shanxi was a failure. It was pretty much a human fleet versus a turian scout/patrol force. If the asari and salarians didn't intervene your human-centric self would see first hand Turian Total War.

Cool story? 

That was before humanity's First Contact. We're now considered one of the strongest races in the galaxy, so I don't know what you're suggesting.

all right we get it your pro cerberus

How long did it take you to figure that out? I thought that the pic of the Illusive Man with the check mark might have clued you in.

yeah but I didn`t expect it to last this long and I just hate that kai leng

[Catamantaloedis]

I agree somewhat. It would have been better to cure the genophage, take control of the Reapers, and then wipe the Krogan out.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

alec1898 wrote...

Y'all don't know you're reasoning with Mr. Unreasonable himself.

Except I've refuted every point they made, such that they respond with the likes of "They are very superior".

Didn't refute my point yet, just saying

[feliciano2040]

silentassassin264 wrote...

My thoughts on Cerberus are incomplete because of the character assassination that was done in ME3 just for the sake of making them the bad guys. I loved Cerberus from ME2. ME3 invokes a massive face_plain for the completely spastic and terrible writing.

Or maybe it was a commentary on power and control, and of the limits to which both extend, Cerberus in Mass Effect 3 is a metaphor on what the phrase "whatever the cost" really means.

If one wants to see everything in a negative light, everything will seem like utter s***.

Modifié par feliciano2040, 16 mai 2012 - 02:22 .

[garrusfan1]

justafan wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

They were only driven to take extraordinary measures because of the massive stupidity on the part of the rest of the galaxy.

True but it doesn't excuse stupidity on Cerberus' part in ME3.  They would lose nothing by operating in secret and letting Shepard build his grand alliance.  If they end up controlling the reapers, who cares how many krogan can reproduce?

I for one blame indoctrination, because the TIM I knew in ME2 would always see the big picture, and realize that why he brought Shep back was to end the Reaper threat and ensure humanity's survival.  He would have realized that had he been unable to control the reapers for whatever reason, then Shepard and his fleets would have been the ultimate failsafe, and would maximize humanity's chances.

yeah but if he was indoctrinated why would the reapers attack sanctuary that was always my question because he helps the reapers by making it harder for shepard but they were kinda worried about santuary or horizon

[Catamantaloedis]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...
A whole galaxy was shouting at him causing him to believe that his rational actions were evil. A man can only take so much universal criticism before he begins to doubt himself. The only sad part, is that the Illusive Man was so close. Literally, a few feet from ascending humanity from the pits to the command of the universe.

Good thing my Shepard eventually chose the correct choice.

If the whole neighborhood is telling you not to jump off a roof when you're convinced you can fly it's not because you're a visionary who dared to dream, it's because you're likely to break something.

Their protest would not be the first time that a whole neighborhood, or even an entire world has been wrong.

Missing the point, which is humans can't fly, not on our own anyway. The difference between gods and humans is that humans are mortal and flawed. We are limited and somethings are just beyond our capability despite our force of will or ambitions. To assume that us being in charge of everything would mean wonderous things for the galaxy is foolhardy at best. We make mistakes and somethings are out of our reach or capabilty, you seem to be confusing humans for gods.

Being in control of the Reapers, means eternal peace, wiith humanity at the helm. There is no need for war after all the Council races have been subdued, and pay fealty to humanity. A human representative body can rule the galaxy with an iron resolve, and all resistance will be exterminated.

Point refuted. 

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 16 mai 2012 - 02:22 .

[II JazB x]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

II JazB x wrote...

Shanxi was a failure. It was pretty much a human fleet versus a turian scout/patrol force. If the asari and salarians didn't intervene your human-centric self would see first hand Turian Total War.

Cool story? 

That was before humanity's First Contact. We're now considered one of the strongest races in the galaxy, so I don't know what you're suggesting.

all right we get it your pro cerberus

How long did it take you to figure that out? I thought that the pic of the Illusive Man with the check mark might have clued you in.

And yet we still got our arse handed to us. The Asari held their colonies much longer than we did. Only the Batarians got pwned worse than us and they didn't even know what was happening (Whereas Hackett knew full well from Arrival onwards). You don't see any other species losing two and a half fleets and practically half of their territory so quickly. Heck within a few missions humans pretty much loses nearly all of the Skyllian Verge and about 3/4 of its space

[Impulse and Compulse]

Well, I mean, you can doom an entire race to extinction for some scientist support, shooting your best friend in the back and another in the face in the process.

And you can do it TWICE.

Why not?

[Catamantaloedis]

II JazB x wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

II JazB x wrote...

Shanxi was a failure. It was pretty much a human fleet versus a turian scout/patrol force. If the asari and salarians didn't intervene your human-centric self would see first hand Turian Total War.

Cool story? 

That was before humanity's First Contact. We're now considered one of the strongest races in the galaxy, so I don't know what you're suggesting.

all right we get it your pro cerberus

How long did it take you to figure that out? I thought that the pic of the Illusive Man with the check mark might have clued you in.

And yet we still got our arse handed to us. The Asari held their colonies much longer than we did. Only the Batarians got pwned worse than us and they didn't even know what was happening (Whereas Hackett knew full well from Arrival onwards). You don't see any other species losing two and a half fleets and practically half of their territory so quickly. Heck within a few missions humans pretty much loses nearly all of the Skyllian Verge and about 3/4 of its space

 
Because the Reapers focused their efforts on humanity and Earth. I don't see how the Asari fared much better since Thessia fell completely within hours.

I don't see how any of this is relevant to the topic at hand.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...
A whole galaxy was shouting at him causing him to believe that his rational actions were evil. A man can only take so much universal criticism before he begins to doubt himself. The only sad part, is that the Illusive Man was so close. Literally, a few feet from ascending humanity from the pits to the command of the universe.

Good thing my Shepard eventually chose the correct choice.

If the whole neighborhood is telling you not to jump off a roof when you're convinced you can fly it's not because you're a visionary who dared to dream, it's because you're likely to break something.

Their protest would not be the first time that a whole neighborhood, or even an entire world has been wrong.

Missing the point, which is humans can't fly, not on our own anyway. The difference between gods and humans is that humans are mortal and flawed. We are limited and somethings are just beyond our capability despite our force of will or ambitions. To assume that us being in charge of everything would mean wonderous things for the galaxy is foolhardy at best. We make mistakes and somethings are out of our reach or capabilty, you seem to be confusing humans for gods.

Being in control of the Reapers, means eternal peace, wiith humanity at the helm. There is no need for war after all the Council races have been subdued, and pay fealty to humanity. A human representative body can rule the galaxy with an iron resolve, and all resistance will be exterminated.

Point refuted. 

There will always be some form of resistence from the aliens or from humans, you can't even get this forum behind your idea, you expect all of humanity to just blindly follow, I sure wouldn't. Also, "eternal peace"? Remember how I mentioned things beyond our capabilities? Don't be dense.

[garrusfan1]

II JazB x wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

II JazB x wrote...

Shanxi was a failure. It was pretty much a human fleet versus a turian scout/patrol force. If the asari and salarians didn't intervene your human-centric self would see first hand Turian Total War.

Cool story? 

That was before humanity's First Contact. We're now considered one of the strongest races in the galaxy, so I don't know what you're suggesting.

all right we get it your pro cerberus

How long did it take you to figure that out? I thought that the pic of the Illusive Man with the check mark might have clued you in.

And yet we still got our arse handed to us. The Asari held their colonies much longer than we did. Only the Batarians got pwned worse than us and they didn't even know what was happening (Whereas Hackett knew full well from Arrival onwards). You don't see any other species losing two and a half fleets and practically half of their territory so quickly. Heck within a few missions humans pretty much loses nearly all of the Skyllian Verge and about 3/4 of its space

yeah how did we do so bad

[II JazB x]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

II JazB x wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

II JazB x wrote...

Shanxi was a failure. It was pretty much a human fleet versus a turian scout/patrol force. If the asari and salarians didn't intervene your human-centric self would see first hand Turian Total War.

Cool story? 

That was before humanity's First Contact. We're now considered one of the strongest races in the galaxy, so I don't know what you're suggesting.

all right we get it your pro cerberus

How long did it take you to figure that out? I thought that the pic of the Illusive Man with the check mark might have clued you in.

And yet we still got our arse handed to us. The Asari held their colonies much longer than we did. Only the Batarians got pwned worse than us and they didn't even know what was happening (Whereas Hackett knew full well from Arrival onwards). You don't see any other species losing two and a half fleets and practically half of their territory so quickly. Heck within a few missions humans pretty much loses nearly all of the Skyllian Verge and about 3/4 of its space

 
Because the Reapers focused their efforts on humanity and Earth. I don't see how the Asari fared much better since Thessia fell completely within hours.

I don't see how any of this is relevant to the topic at hand.

Relevant in that your ideas about Humans must be supreme in ME are flawed, as we are quite clearly not when you compare us to the other species in the galaxy. And I said Asari Colonies. Pretty much everyone lost their homeworlds as soon as the Reapers arrived tbh. The Asari still fared longer than we did in protecting their borders (they last pretty much for about 4/5ths of the game) than we did. Heck after Earth fell the Alliance's job was to evacuate and protect the remaining colonies and they still failed (Benning, Terra Nova, Eden Prime)

[garrusfan1]

II JazB x wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

II JazB x wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

II JazB x wrote...

Shanxi was a failure. It was pretty much a human fleet versus a turian scout/patrol force. If the asari and salarians didn't intervene your human-centric self would see first hand Turian Total War.

Cool story? 

That was before humanity's First Contact. We're now considered one of the strongest races in the galaxy, so I don't know what you're suggesting.

all right we get it your pro cerberus

How long did it take you to figure that out? I thought that the pic of the Illusive Man with the check mark might have clued you in.

And yet we still got our arse handed to us. The Asari held their colonies much longer than we did. Only the Batarians got pwned worse than us and they didn't even know what was happening (Whereas Hackett knew full well from Arrival onwards). You don't see any other species losing two and a half fleets and practically half of their territory so quickly. Heck within a few missions humans pretty much loses nearly all of the Skyllian Verge and about 3/4 of its space

 
Because the Reapers focused their efforts on humanity and Earth. I don't see how the Asari fared much better since Thessia fell completely within hours.

I don't see how any of this is relevant to the topic at hand.

Relevant in that your ideas about Humans must be supreme in ME are flawed, as we are quite clearly not when you compare us to the other species in the galaxy. And I said Asari Colonies. Pretty much everyone lost their homeworlds as soon as the Reapers arrived tbh. The Asari still fared longer than we did in protecting their borders (they last pretty much for about 4/5ths of the game) than we did. Heck after Earth fell the Alliance's job was to evacuate and protect the remaining colonies and they still failed (Benning, Terra Nova, Eden Prime)

actually palaven hadn`t really fell to the extent of earth or thessia so in that way turians are way superior in that way

[mauro2222]

Interesting.

They are imperialist = bad.
We are imperialist = good.

They want dominance = bad.
We want dominance = good.

They want power = bad.
We want power = good.

It seems more like the attitude of a selfish ****** who wants to control everything with their love of power, than fear of being destroyed.

Modifié par mauro2222, 16 mai 2012 - 02:37 .

[garrusfan1]

mauro2222 wrote...

Interesting.

They are imperialist = bad.
We are imperialist = good.

They want dominance = bad.
We want dominance = good.

They want power = bad.
We want power = good.

It seems more like the attitude of a selfish ****** who wants to control everything with their love of power, than fear of being destroyed.

yep exactly