205 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow_Viper]

If you believe potions make this game too easy, then the solution is simple. Don't use them, or set yourself a time limit between usages.



It's amazing what people will find to whine/complain/nitpick/cry about.



IFSW.

[Bibdy]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Ok Bibdy, instead of not using potions, howabout not making them? Or buying them? Or looting them? Way I see it, what you're saying is since they're there you HAVE to use them so they should be taken away to eliminate your ability to use them and Bioware MUST do this because you can't do it yourself as it would be wrong and you'd be lying to yourself.

I gotta admit...I'm glad I just play games to have fun! If I put that much thought into it I'd probably be popping tums by the handfull.

I play games to have fun, too, but self-imposing limits to make what should be a challenging encounter, actually a challenge, DETRACTS from the fun. It doesn't add to it.

I can beat a big bad monster by chain-chugging health potions. That's boring. I could beat it by NOT chain-chugging health potions, instead chain-chugging mana potions and using tons of heal spells, instead. That's also boring. Finding a way to beat it, that doesn't involve chugging health or mana potions, but instead find some silly tactic which prevents me taking any damage (because if I don't use health or mana potions AT ALL, I'm just going to slowly die without any kind of healing...basic math)...like maybe getting multiple mages and chaining Curse of Misdirection or something...that's just a waste of time.

What exactly did I prove? That my characters can barely beat this thing by the skin of their teeth, slowly dying if I don't pop any potions at all and having to use a cheesey tactic to win? Whoop-de-doo? The encounter would be fun AND challenging if it was balanced in a way that, despite my best efforts to keep everyone alive, through liberal potion use (as much as has been imposed on me), throwing out damage and healing up the wah-zoo, and my characters feel like they're under constant threat of death, not getting low and cycling between lesser and normal Health Poultices every few seconds. In order to threaten them, the big bad monster would have to output INSANE amounts of damage. If the current system was in place with being able to chain-chug potions, but bosses were pumping out RIDICULOUS amounts of damage to compensate, then it would still feel like a challenge, even if it does look lame that the guy is popping potions like Pez. But, Hard and Nightmare don't do that. They add tiny amounts of damage/resistances/reduced healing around the place that are pretty trivial across the board.

The middle ground is what I'm seeking here, where I can use potions as intended, but still feel threatened with death and really, explain to my why its such a big concern of yours if this feature was put in for Hard or Nightmare difficulties only? If I play Hard or Nightmare I expect a challenge, not "the same game, but combat takes a little longer to complete because my characters do a little bit less damage and the enemies have a little bit more resistances"

Once again, the sense of accomplishment is more REAL when its intended by the designers. If you don't understand that, then ignore this thread and keep playing your Easy/Normal modes as they are. Let those of us who want a challenge turn what is supposed to be a challenging part of the game into an ACTUAL CHALLENGE. Thanks.

Modifié par Bibdy, 09 décembre 2009 - 11:17 .

[O113]

[quote]Bibdy wrote...

[quote]Wolfva2 wrote...

Ok Bibdy, instead of not using potions, howabout not making them? Or buying them? Or looting them? Way I see it, what you're saying is since they're there you HAVE to use them so they should be taken away to eliminate your ability to use them and Bioware MUST do this because you can't do it yourself as it would be wrong and you'd be lying to yourself.

I gotta admit...I'm glad I just play games to have fun! If I put that much thought into it I'd probably be popping tums by the handfull.

I play games to have fun, too, but self-imposing limits to make what should be a challenging encounter, actually a challenge, DETRACTS from the fun. It doesn't add to it.

I can beat a big bad monster by chain-chugging health potions. That's boring. I could beat it by NOT chain-chugging health potions, instead chain-chugging mana potions and using tons of heal spells, instead. That's also boring. Finding a way to beat it, that doesn't involve chugging health or mana potions, but instead find some silly tactic which prevents me taking any damage (because if I don't use health or mana potions AT ALL, I'm just going to slowly die without any kind of healing...basic math)...like maybe getting multiple mages and chaining Curse of Misdirection or something...that's just a waste of time.

What exactly did I prove? That my characters can barely beat this thing by the skin of their teeth, slowly dying if I don't pop any potions at all and having to use a cheesey tactic to win? Whoop-de-doo? The encounter would be fun AND challenging if it was balanced in a way that, despite my best efforts to keep everyone alive, through liberal potion use (as much as has been imposed on me), throwing out damage and healing up the wah-zoo, and my characters feel like they're under constant threat of death, not getting low and cycling between lesser and normal Health Poultices every few seconds. In order to threaten them, the big bad monster would have to output INSANE amounts of damage. If the current system was in place with being able to chain-chug potions, but bosses were pumping out RIDICULOUS amounts of damage to compensate, then it would still feel like a challenge, even if it does look lame that the guy is popping potions like Pez. But, Hard and Nightmare don't do that. They add tiny amounts of damage/resistances/reduced healing around the place that are pretty trivial across the board.

The middle ground is what I'm seeking here, where I can use potions as intended, but still feel threatened with death and really, explain to my why its such a big concern of yours if this feature was put in for Hard or Nightmare difficulties only? If I play Hard or Nightmare I expect a challenge, not "the same game, but combat takes a little longer to complete because my characters do a little bit less damage and the enemies have a little bit more resistances"

Once again, the sense of accomplishment is more REAL when its intended by the designers. If you don't understand that, then ignore this thread and keep playing your Easy/Normal modes as they are. Let those of us who want a challenge turn what is supposed to be a challenging part of the game into an ACTUAL CHALLENGE. Thanks.

[/quote]

What is all this discussion about "proving" something? And why is it reducing your fun solving something that's so easily solved that obviously is interfering with the enoyment of the game? And why on earth is the sense of accomplishment more real if it fits into the hand of the designers?

Again, you say you want a challange and then grief on players that play on easy/normal while tugging potions like never before on harder difficulty?

Here's a simple, down and dirty solution: don't buy or create potions yourself - stick to the ones you can loot.
In no way does this interfere with actual gameplay and if anything, it's going to reduce time spending at vendors.
If you still find the game to throw to many potions at you, here's another suggested fix: never carry more than 4 of each type. Or maybe never use anything better than lesser potions.

Yeah, I hate to break it to you, nothing in this world is perfect and from time to time, you have to think out solutions for yourself and your own enjoyment.

Personally, I find a much greater satisfaction knowing that I have thought out a challenge for myself and spent time creating new challenges for myself than what I could ever feel for haxxing out an obvious flaw in any game. If I wanted to cakewalk everything by just spamming potions (Fable, I am looking at you too), I'd just cheat.
Just as I opt not to cheat, I can opt not to use certain classes or items. Or whatever have you.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

@Bibdy

So I assume you want the developers to design the game for your prefered character build and pary make up and your style of play? Play on nightmare. Don't craft or steal or extort people for higher quest rewards and only use the potions you can find or buy and I'm sure you'll not be complaining about being able to potion spam.

See, if you extort money for higher quest rewards or if you steal you will have a lot more money than people who are playing good characters. So you'll have an easier time buying stuff.

I played through on hard with a good character (no stealing, no coersion for quest rewards.) I did not spam potions. I also tried to conserve pots deliberately becasue in not stealing and not extorting money from others I did not have money flowing out my ears.

I'm not opposed to a little higer cooldown on potinos. But what you have to understand is not everybody plays with your party builds and make up. And the more you play the game, thje easier it is because you knkow the locations of all the vendors, what they sell, and where to get the good items. Now, if loot and vendors were more randomized, that would take care of part of that problem.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 09 décembre 2009 - 11:44 .

[Bibdy]

There's the thing, I HAVEN'T bought or created potions, and its still easy. I'm not chain chugging the things all the time, but when I feel threatened with death, its a quick, easy fix to just pop a potion on a guy.

I'll put this in a nice succinct manner:

If Hard and Nightmare modes aren't challenging the people who expect to find a challenge in those modes anywhere near enough, what exactly is the POINT in Hard and Nightmare modes?

Maybe its not potions that's the problem, but its a pretty easy scapegoat when output/input damage are barely touched by the difficulty setting you're running. If my characters were taking more damage, and they weren't putting out as much (fights last longer, while taking more damage per hit), then chain chugging potions might feel like a necessity, I'd blow through a lot of them every fight, I'd run low on cash, wouldn't be able to buy all the super-items I want every vendor I reach and the game would be challenging...great!

But...then how much fun is chain-chugging potions? Isn't that a little bit Action RPG-y? This is a tactical/strategy RPG, not Diablo 3, isn't it?

The chain-chugging thing is a pretty poor limitation on the game system. The only way to make it a challenge is to ramp up damage so much that chain-chugging becomes mandatory, at which point you're playing a kind of Action RPG, not so much a tactical RPG.

Modifié par Bibdy, 09 décembre 2009 - 11:47 .

[Matthew Young CT]

diablo 3 is getting rid of potions actually

[menasure]

this is not one of those predefined games where you follow a set game ... it's half a sandbox.

you can stock up your whole inventory with potions if you want or you can not use them at all... there is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to play it because dragon age origins is intended as a role playing game so complaining about too many potions is about as futile as it gets unless you're playing a character with a severe pot drinking problem lol.

[Bibdy]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

diablo 3 is getting rid of potions actually

Touche, sir.

[Pocketgb]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

diablo 3 is getting rid of potions actually

They just renamed them to health orbs.

[Matthew Young CT]

health orbs have a slightly different functionality to potions. they do a similar thing admittedly, but without the tedium of stocking up on potions and whatnot

[Jensonagain]

Sleeping_Dragon wrote...

I find the biggest drawback to this game, is that potion cooldown is too low.
This allow player to chug down lots of potion during combat and making the game entirely too easy.

They should have put more thought into this..which would have made the game so much more memorable.
What should have happen is that cooldown on potions should increase with game difficulty.

Yea I came to the same conclusion.

Here is what I do.  I play on easy mode but I don't use any kind of heals either by magic or heal potions.

The game has become completely new and more strategic.

[borelocin]

I never tire of "I overuse something so Bioware should nerf it to stop other people from using it because I can't stop myself" threads. Oh wait, yes I do.

[Pennoyer]

I'm beginning to not mind potions as much now. If they were not available as is, a no mage party would be near impossible.

[Bibdy]

borelocin wrote...

I never tire of "I overuse something so Bioware should nerf it to stop other people from using it because I can't stop myself" threads. Oh wait, yes I do.

So, in order to make difficulty settings named HARD and NIGHTMARE give a game experience that comes even remotely close to the common ideals of HARD or NIGHTMARE, we're also supposed to inflict extreme self-limitations on ourselves. That makes sense to you?

Seriously, isn't it common knowledge that difficulty settings are introduced into games to cater to the video game industry's VERY wide range of player ability? If not, then tell me what's the freaking point in difficulty settings?

I find Hard mode's difference over normal mode utterly trivial and by no measure do I consider myself totally elite, hardcore strategist gamerguy. So am I wrong in wanting harder difficulty settings to offer me even the slightest challenge over Normal mode, and one another, WITHOUT having to download a mod with an extreme amount of changes (changes that I don't necessarily agree with game-balance wise) and WITHOUT having to self-mutilate my gaming experience and play as my own judge, jury and executioner if I jump outside those boundaries for even a moment?

Modifié par Bibdy, 10 décembre 2009 - 01:02 .

[ClayMeow]

borelocin wrote...

I never tire of "I overuse something so Bioware should nerf it to stop other people from using it because I can't stop myself" threads. Oh wait, yes I do.

QFT.

Biddy, the only thing you're proving in your posts is that you lack self-control. I understand and am sure there are several people out there like you that need a developer like BioWare dictating exactly how you play a game, but I for one appreciate flexibility.

[Bibdy]

ClayMeow wrote...

QFT.
Biddy, the only thing you're proving in your posts is that you lack self-control. I understand and am sure there are several people out there like you that need a developer like BioWare dictating exactly how you play a game, but I for one appreciate flexibility.

I have more than enough self-control to play through that way, but I refuse to because its NOT FUN to play that way. Tell me if that's too difficult to understand.

I no like do things that is not fun.

Challenge, fun. Self-imposed limitations for the sake of challenge, not fun.

Again, if Hard isn't hard and Nightmare isn't Nightmarish, what is the point in Hard and Nightmare?

There's a serious case of fanboyism in this 'just don't use those potions' argument. Its a straight-up logical thought process where you read a difficulty setting that says hard, and expect a challenge, what do you do when that difficulty setting disappoints by a long shot?

Is there really NOTHING you can say negatively about the game on these forums without somebody giving you some half-assed reason why "The game is 100% fine, you're just wrong"?

I love the game myself, but christ, people. Wake up.

Modifié par Bibdy, 10 décembre 2009 - 01:20 .

[ClayMeow]

Hard is harder than Normal and Nightmare is harder than Hard. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact, and just because potion restrictions don't change doesn't change that fact.

[Kaosgirl]

Bibdy wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Ok Bibdy, instead of not using potions, howabout not making them? Or buying them? Or looting them? Way I see it, what you're saying is since they're there you HAVE to use them so they should be taken away to eliminate your ability to use them and Bioware MUST do this because you can't do it yourself as it would be wrong and you'd be lying to yourself.

I gotta admit...I'm glad I just play games to have fun! If I put that much thought into it I'd probably be popping tums by the handfull.

I play games to have fun, too, but self-imposing limits to make what should be a challenging encounter, actually a challenge, DETRACTS from the fun.

Sounds like a personal problem to me.

Bibdy wrote...
If the current system was in place with being able to chain-chug potions, but bosses were pumping out RIDICULOUS amounts of damage to compensate,

Then we'd have a different crowd of complainers talkign about the ridiculous jump between standard encounters and boss encounters.  And a few instances where the massive damage put out by the boss would make potions irrelevant - you can't chug for recovery if you're put down from a one-hit kill.  Which is what would happen to people who neglected Con in order to max their class-effectiveness stats.

One of the most frustrating things in an RPG is getting to a point where a sudden jump in encounter difficulty makes you realize that the characters you've built according to the lessons of the previous encounters are just Not Viable At All against this one.

Bibdy wrote...
The middle ground is what I'm seeking here, where I can use potions as intended, but still feel threatened with death and really, explain to my why its such a big concern of yours if this feature was put in for Hard or Nightmare difficulties only?

i don't know how the coding they did to implement the difficulty scale works, exactly, but I'm guessing based on past experience that doing what you've asked for would require almost a complete re-write so that this feature doesn't impact casual or normal games.

Bibdy wrote...
Once again, the sense of accomplishment is more REAL when its intended by the designers.

Why?

Bibdy wrote...
If you don't understand that, then ignore this thread and keep playing your Easy/Normal modes as they are.

Condescension is fun, but it's not a convincing argument.

Modifié par Kaosgirl, 10 décembre 2009 - 01:47 .

[Pocketgb]

ClayMeow wrote...

Hard is harder than Normal and Nightmare is harder than Hard. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact, and just because potion restrictions don't change doesn't change that fact.

The peak just isn't that hard to reach, for some. Oh well...

[Kaosgirl]

1varangian wrote...

c) rebalanced the hardest fights accordingly (some of the human bosses do have ridiculous amounts of HP compared to the PC "heroes" so I would not mind seeing them toned down to believable levels as well)

That's to simulate the boss's own potions, without clogging up the database and gameplay with having him go through the motions of using them

1varangian wrote...
Potions do feel like cheating since the enemy doesn't get to use them.

Sure they do, just behind the scenes

[Bibdy]

ClayMeow wrote...

Hard is harder than Normal and Nightmare is harder than Hard. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact, and just because potion restrictions don't change doesn't change that fact.

Well done. Here's your freaking medal for stating the obvious.

Now, how about addressing that hard isn't HARD ENOUGH and nightmare isn't NIGHTMARE enough.

Seriously. Man up and face that fact for a second. Suppress your inner desire to make instant excuses for each one of the game potentially minor flaws. I love this game, but my god some of you people are blinded by the sun or something.

The problem isn't with me, I assure you. I'm getting my ass handed to me on Hardcore in Mass Effect at the moment, but its still somewhat fun. I found BG2's hardmodes quite a challenge because the difference in incoming damage etc was HUGE and forced me to play very differently.

Hard/Nightmare in DA:O? Nothing. Haven't changed a thing. Play through the exact same way I have in Normal and the differences are trivial.

Please, explain that without resorting to "well you're just supposed to make the game harder on yourself, duh!".

You can't. Its just a flaw with the game. Not the end of the world, nothing's perfect, but for crying out loud, don't sit there and tell me I'm supposed to inflict such absurd notions of self-mutilating my own gameplay experience to hide the fact that the developers kinda screwed up on the difficulty setting side of things.

If we resort to 'well just do absurd notion X' or 'play completely different like Y' to every single little flaw in the game, then DA:O 2 is going to have the same flaws, because everyone's too fanboyish to admit them.

[Kaosgirl]

Bibdy wrote...

There's the thing, I HAVEN'T bought or created potions, and its still easy. I'm not chain chugging the things all the time, but when I feel threatened with death, its a quick, easy fix to just pop a potion on a guy.

I'll put this in a nice succinct manner:

If Hard and Nightmare modes aren't challenging the people who expect to find a challenge in those modes anywhere near enough, what exactly is the POINT in Hard and Nightmare modes?

I would say that if they're challenging 50% + 1 or more of the people who expect said challenge, they're serving their function.  For those who still feel unchallenged:  congratulations, you're better than the rest of us. Take some damn pride in your accomplishment instead of ****ing out the guys who gave us a good experience for not catering to your vocal minority at our expense.

Is DA:O meeting that benchmark?  I dunno, but I wouldn't use the contents of this forum to figure that out.  Those who feel unsatisfied are more likely to **** & moan than those who are happy, setting up an obvious sample bias.

[Bibdy]

Kaosgirl wrote...

Why?

Because playing my own judge, jury and execution i.e. working myself through a VIDEO GAME, there's something kinda fundamentally wrong with the whole 'fun' part of the experience.

Is it really that hard to understand? Where's the self of fulfilment in beating the game, forcing yourself to not use potions, or only use one every 30 seconds? What does that prove, exactly?

Or to think of it another way, beating the intended hard or nightmare-modes should feel like an accomplishment. They shouldn't feel like Normal mode, with some +/- 5% modifiers here and there to drag fights out a teeny, eeny weeny bit longer.

The modifiers for Hard and Nightmare just need to get ramped up. Maybe a little, maybe a lot. That's the simple solution. No massive rewrite. Just increase incoming damage, lower output damage, lower healing even more etc. etc.

The potion thing, probably a bad idea, but like I said before, its an easy scapegoat to a pretty big flaw in the whole difficulty thing. And while it remains in the game, even if they do ramp up Hard/Nightmare mode, the game's going to enter Action RPG territory, but I'm okay with that. The tactical part is still there, its just that potions are going to become a pretty big deal and feel a bit Diablo 2 (not 3...) ish.

[Shadow_Viper]

Bibdy wrote...

There's the thing, I HAVEN'T bought or created potions, and its still easy. I'm not chain chugging the things all the time, but when I feel threatened with death, its a quick, easy fix to just pop a potion on a guy.

So then don't "pop a potion on a guy" and problem solved, the game is now less easy for you.

Honestly.....this isn't rocket surgery.

IFSW

[Bibdy]

Kaosgirl wrote...

I would say that if they're challenging 50% + 1 or more of the people who expect said challenge, they're serving their function.  For those who still feel unchallenged:  congratulations, you're better than the rest of us. Take some damn pride in your accomplishment instead of ****ing out the guys who gave us a good experience for not catering to your vocal minority at our expense.

Is DA:O meeting that benchmark?  I dunno, but I wouldn't use the contents of this forum to figure that out.  Those who feel unsatisfied are more likely to **** & moan than those who are happy, setting up an obvious sample bias.

There's no sense of accomplishment when its utterly trivial...hurray, I can ride a bicycle, with training wheels on, at 26 years old. Good for me.

My point is MOST people would find Hard/Nightmare easy if they just played it. The differences are TINY. Stop thinking of Hard/Nightmare in this game as actually difficult. Stop it. Its NOT what you would consider Hard/Nightmare to be. If I get my ass-kicked in Mass Effect on Hardcore, jump over to DA:O and breeze through Hard without a second thought (and these are games made by the same company, if not the same team), the problem isn't with me.