205 réponses à ce sujet

[imukka]

Lets get rid of lyrium, potions

Modifié par imukka, 10 décembre 2009 - 02:20 .

[Shandorin]

Dont' use them, then.

[Aesir Rising]

Wolfva2 wrote...
See, that's what I don't understand.  Why are people DEMANDING that someone ELSE impose limits on them?  I would much rather have self imposed limits then someone else telling me what I can or can not do.  Potions are an option; instead of demanding that we have fewer options why not just...opt out voluntarily?  

That's easily answered: even though this is a single-player game, there is still competition.  Players want to have a seemingly objective 3rd party (like the devs) serve in an officiating capacity.  Otherwise, how do you compare one player to the next?  By height?

Don't believe this is a competitive game?  Check Bioware's own significant efforts to provide success metrics for everyone to see.  In-game achievements, content unlocks, screenshot milestones to serve as 'proof' of those achievements.  They all serve as measures of success.  And look to the forums themselves to see the competitive atmosphere - ever notice how some posters feel compelled to mention that they play on hard mode and that it's too easy - whether or not game difficulty settings have anything to do with the topic at hand or not.

Your suggestion - to opt-out voluntarily - would only gain steam if there was an 'official' in-game setting that limited or disabled potion use.  A setting or achievement unlock ("Achievement: 20pts for Completing Ostagar without Potions")  that could be paraded around the forums for other players to see.

I'm sure someone will crawl out of a crack someplace to say that they don't need to be competitive to enjoy the game.  But that's the exceptional case, not the proven rule.  And insofar as this 'rule' can be 'proven' I'll just refer you to the obvious and clear examples of real development dollars spent to ensure players can measure their own success against both themselves, as well as against other players - in this single player game.

Modifié par Aesir Rising, 10 décembre 2009 - 02:34 .

[Matthew Young CT]

Who would object if Bioware made nightmare harder, and why?

[sandboxgod]

jivebeaver wrote...

I just open up the ABI base gda and change potion cooldown to 30,60,90, and 120s for each level
ez fix, makes them less of a crutch and the game more fun

How come the OP didn't respond to this post? Just open up the file and fix it for yourself. Done

Maybe people still think they are playing World of Warcraft or something. This is a *single player game*. If you are not happy with something, then you or the community can fix it yourself.

It goes without saying that most people are already happy with the way things are paced right now

[Wolfva2]

Good point Aesir. Opting out really is only an option to those of us who just play the game for fun and really couldn't care less about achievements, scores, or bragging rights. But if someone lives for the ability to crow to the world that he was able to accomplish X achievement in a game...well, yeah, I guess he'd want as structured a 'competition' as possible.



I'll crawl out of the crack and say people don't need to be competitive. There are probably hundreds of thousands of people playing this game who don't even log onto the website, much less update their characters. But then again, they're playing a single player game, as opposed to the people you're talking about who would be playing a multi-player competition game.

[soteria]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
...
Oh yeah, I notinced in your self-imposed limits you did not stop stealing. Stop stealing, stop crafting, and stop asking for quest rewards/extorting money and you'll then not have the money to buy tons of pots so you'll not be complaining about pots.

...

Coming from someone accusing other people of not enjoying RP, suggesting people not use the crafting skills, steal, or extort money is kinda rich.  I guess if you want a challenge, you can only RP "lawful good" characters who are stupid about staying alive.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Aesir Rising wrote...
That's easily answered: even though this is a single-player game, there is still competition.  Players want to have a seemingly objective 3rd party (like the devs) serve in an officiating capacity.  Otherwise, how do you compare one player to the next?  By height?

Don't believe this is a competitive game?  Check Bioware's own significant efforts to provide success metrics for everyone to see.  In-game achievements, content unlocks, screenshot milestones to serve as 'proof' of those achievements.  They all serve as measures of success.  And look to the forums themselves to see the competitive atmosphere - ever notice how some posters feel compelled to mention that they play on hard mode and that it's too easy - whether or not game difficulty settings have anything to do with the topic at hand or not.

Your suggestion - to opt-out voluntarily - would only gain steam if there was an 'official' in-game setting that limited or disabled potion use.  A setting or achievement unlock ("Achievement: 20pts for Completing Ostagar without Potions")  that could be paraded around the forums for other players to see.

I'm sure someone will crawl out of a crack someplace to say that they don't need to be competitive to enjoy the game.  But that's the exceptional case, not the proven rule.  And insofar as this 'rule' can be 'proven' I'll just refer you to the obvious and clear examples of real development dollars spent to ensure players can measure their own success against both themselves, as well as against other players - in this single player game.

Actually, a number of people have said they enjoy the ROLE PLAYING in role-playing games, not competing with other players.  In fact, most people playing a role-playing single player game obiously are not trying to compete against others. Competition against other players is for multiplayer games.

You can't measure anyone's skill by their achievements in this game. It is possible to use mods to make the game easier or to cheat in various ways. In order to for the game to be competitive between players,  characters and games would have to be stored solely online so players could not cheat.

So until saved games and characters are stored only online and there are checks in place to make sure there is no cheating,  players are obviously not in competition with each other.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 10 décembre 2009 - 02:54 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

soteria wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
...
Oh yeah, I notinced in your self-imposed limits you did not stop stealing. Stop stealing, stop crafting, and stop asking for quest rewards/extorting money and you'll then not have the money to buy tons of pots so you'll not be complaining about pots.

...

Coming from someone accusing other people of not enjoying RP, suggesting people not use the crafting skills, steal, or extort money is kinda rich.  I guess if you want a challenge, you can only RP "lawful good" characters who are stupid about staying alive.

Actually, if you take my statement in context you will see I said differnent builds and differnt party compositions result in different game experiences.

Saying that something needs to be done about potions is not valid for all builds and party compositions.

A lawful good character who gives money to others and does not steal/extort will be considerably shorter on cash than a character that extorts money and steals.

Rather than whining about "too much money" ot "too much potion abuse" one should try to play other character builds and party compositions. Don't demand that the game be changed to fit your favorite character build and party composition. Role play and don't exploit exploitable things. Pretty simple.

[Asugai2]

I would like to see just lesser health and lyrium potions in the game. With this, you'd retain the cooldown because you could not change them between the tiers and thus escaping the cooldowns, with only a small amount of HP healed with each one used.

[soteria]

Kaosgirl wrote...

soteria wrote...
Totally different type of game, but legendary difficulty on halo is about what I expect for the hardest difficulty in a game--it requires you to play at an entirely different level to win, and even if you do everything you can to cheese the AI it's still a challenge.  

That... er, just sounds like the kind of 'challenge' that seems pointless to me.  Like flipping coins... heads I win, tails I lose, but I only get to flip the coin if I did everything right: otherwise I just lose.  But then, I haven't played Halo so I'm more extrapolating from games that likely don't have enough in common with it to be relevant.

OOC, where does that challenge come from?

You just have to be really good to beat it on legendary, or you'll be reloading trying to beat the same battle for hours.  Headshots, using items tactically, finding the right position, whatever you can do.  There's no need to create an artificial challenge, so to me, winning feals more rewarding.

soteria wrote...
I shouldn't have to play with a hand behind my back on the hardest difficulty on only my second playthrough.  That's all I'm saying.

I think I get what you're saying, but... most of the proposed solutions I've seen involve asking Bioware to do the equivalent of tying your hand behind your back for you.  What I don't get, is why it makes a difference who's doing the tying.  
If that's not where you're going for, then I apologize for reacting as though it was.

Not quite.  There's a few different dimensions to my complaint, really.  First is, believe it or not, I care that this game be a quality product.  It's already one of the best games I've ever played, but I believe it can easily be improved by providing a genuine challenge to players that want it.

Second, there's a definite difference between self-limitations and rebalance from the developers.  Putting limits on myself takes away choices--like not using force field on party members to save them because I know it will trivialize the fight, or not trying to "pull" enemies to me because I know they will come one at a time and that will also trivialize things.  Sure, I can (and do) put limitations on myself, but I lose options.  In those examples, if Bioware fixed the AI to function more as expected, I would feel like using force field to save a dying party member was a legitimate choice, or pulling enemies into a trap not to be quite so exploitive.

Imagine if I had three weapon choices in a shooter... a 9mm beretta, a .50 desert eagle, and an ak-47.  The fight is challenging with either pistol, but is trivialized by the AK.  So don't use it, right?  Sure.  But I'm still losing options, whereas if the developer replaced the AK with, say, a .45 colt revolver, I would have another option that feels like a real choice.

Third, as I was getting at with my halo example, I get nothing out of beating a challenge I created.  For me, there's no sense of accomplishment from that.  Your mileage apparently varies, which is fine, but you and the rest of the "don't like it don't use it" crowd needs to learn that not everyone is made the same way. 

As Matthew Young said, who is objecting to making Nightmare harder, and why?

[soteria]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

soteria wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
...
Oh yeah, I notinced in your self-imposed limits you did not stop stealing. Stop stealing, stop crafting, and stop asking for quest rewards/extorting money and you'll then not have the money to buy tons of pots so you'll not be complaining about pots.

...

Coming from someone accusing other people of not enjoying RP, suggesting people not use the crafting skills, steal, or extort money is kinda rich.  I guess if you want a challenge, you can only RP "lawful good" characters who are stupid about staying alive.

Actually, if you take my statement in context you will see I said differnent builds and differnt party compositions result in different game experiences.

Saying that something needs to be done about potions is not valid for all builds and party compositions.

A lawful good character who gives money to others and does not steal/extort will be considerably shorter on cash than a character that extorts money and steals.

Rather than whining about "too much money" ot "too much potion abuse" one should try to play other character builds and party compositions. Don't demand that the game be changed to fit your favorite character build and party composition. Role play and don't exploit exploitable things. Pretty simple.

Uh--no duh, different builds will result in different experiences, that's my point.  You're basically saying I need to "RP" a worse party to make the game interesting.  What if for RP reasons I *want* two mages?  What if for RP reasons I *want* to rob everyone blind and extort money?  I enjoy RP.  You're basically saying I only get to be challenged if I change my character concept.  Think about it.

[RetrOldSchool]

I don't think a shared potion cooldown is very logical for DA:O though, IMO it should be an individual cooldown, mostly based on the fact the character needs to grab a potion and drink it. Just 5-10 seconds could be enough for it to be less spam-friendly



The best way would be to have it as a specific option:

"Potion cooldown" Toggle on/off"



Fallout3 also has this "problem" but even worse, since you can just pause the game and heal up without any disruption at all in-game. Stimpaks should have even more cooldown since its something you inject.



To me it works with trying to use as little potions as possible though (I did that in Fallout3 too), but it would be nice to have a toggle option. However, IMO it's more of a "Nice-to-have" than a real game issue.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

 You're basically saying I need to "RP" a worse party to make the game interesting.  What if for RP reasons I *want* two mages?  What if for RP reasons I *want* to rob everyone blind and extort money?  I enjoy RP.  You're basically saying I only get to be challenged if I change my character concept.  Think about it.

No, some builds and compositions of parties will ALWAYS be easier than others. Dragon Age is easier if you steal and extort money because then you can buy great stuff for yourself AND for your party members AND afford lots of crafting materials. If you play a good character who gives money to others and does not steal/extort money you will have less money to buy stuff with. Pretty simple.

Maybe there should be more consequences for theft. Store all saved games online. Do an automatic save when you fail a steal attempt, and only have one saved game per character. And make consequences for failing steal attempts like merchants refusing to sell to you and bounty hunters coming after you. Strong bounty hunters.

Until that happens, I think there are mods that limit potion spamming. Download one and see if it will make you happy if what the developers do doesn't make you happy.

You are basicly saying the game should be balanced based on playing an evil party that steals, extorts, and exploits.

I said ROLE PLAY WHAT YOU WANT and let others role play what they want. Don't demand that the game be changed to make your method of play the only viable method of play in the game. 

This is a great role playing game.

[themaxzero]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
I said ROLE PLAY WHAT YOU WANT and let others role play what they want. Don't demand that the game be changed to make your method of play the only viable method of play in the game. 

I find it amazing that people complain about a particular game concept even when there are specific mods to deal with their complaint that they refuse to you. They would rather have their views imposed on everyone.

Its like they need their opinion validated by Bioware.

If people just played their own game instead of worrying about what everyone else is doing this forum would be a far better place.

[Bibdy]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

To me Dragon Age is the most fun role-playing game to come along in a long time.

From reading your posts I get the impression that role-playing games don't really suit you.

Oh yeah, I notinced in your self-imposed limits you did not stop stealing. Stop stealing, stop crafting, and stop asking for quest rewards/extorting money and you'll then not have the money to buy tons of pots so you'll not be complaining about pots.

Oh yeah, you didn't say your party make up.

Power gaming destroys fun in a role playing game, at least for me.

How about playing through nightmare as a solo mage. Non-arcane warior? I haven't seen anyone post that they have been able to accomplish that yet.

Oh yeah, some people also use a certain crafting exploit to make infinite money. Game killer.

Oh, for crying out loud, this is just getting ridiculous. So now I 'm just not the RPG type, even though I glance over at my desk shelf here and see boxes for World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online, Mass Effect, Neverwinter Nights 2, Fallout 3, Titan Quest, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Dragon Age, not to mention countless others I've got stashed in a box in the next room. Yes, I must have had it completely wrong all along! All these 15 years I've been playing video games, I should have been playing Halo over and over.

Is there anyone here capable of putting down the flaming torch and pitchfork for a second and discuss the difficulty setting of the game without resorting to "Clearly you're just a totally awesome elite gamer!", "Obviously you aren't meant to play RPGs" or "Play with a stopwatch"?

[Bibdy]

Here, I'll even make this post nice and short and simple enough that you can't turn the conversation into a personal attack on me:

Explain to me why you think the details on this webpage, explaining the differences between Easy, Normal, Hard and Nightmare are significant enough to challenge someone who finds Normal mode easy?

http://dragonage.gul....php/difficulty

Look at the differences between Normal and Nightmare. What makes you think that's an acceptable difficulty jump for TWO levels of difficulty?

Modifié par Bibdy, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:08 .

[themaxzero]

Bibdy wrote...

Here, I'll even make this post nice and short and simple enough that you can't turn the conversation into a personal attack on me:

Explain to me why you think the details on this webpage, explaining the differences between Easy, Normal, Hard and Nightmare are significant enough to challenge someone who finds Normal mode easy?

http://dragonage.gul....php/difficulty

Look at the differences between Normal and Nightmare. What makes you think that's an acceptable difficulty jump for TWO levels of difficulty?

You can get mods to change that though.

[Bibdy]

themaxzero wrote...


You can get mods to change that though.

I could, but the one that is out messes with other game balance stuff I'd rather not put in. "Oh now he's just stubborn!", no I want to have fun with the game, too and Bioware is more qualified to do that for the game than Joe-modder with his own crazy ideas on game balance. No offense to the modder, because its a lot of hard work, I just don't agree with any of the gameplay changes he's put in.

So, back on-topic, do you think that's an acceptable jump in difficulty, or not? Why?

[themaxzero]

Bibdy wrote...

themaxzero wrote...


You can get mods to change that though.

I could, but the one that is out messes with other game balance stuff I'd rather not put in. "Oh now he's just stubborn!", no I want to have fun with the game, too and Bioware is more qualified to do that for the game than Joe-modder with his own crazy ideas on game balance. No offense to the modder, because its a lot of hard work, I just don't agree with any of the gameplay changes he's put in.

So, back on-topic, do you think that's an acceptable jump in difficulty, or not? Why?

I'm happy with it.

[Bibdy]

themaxzero wrote...



I'm happy with it.

Why? Does the -15% healing, 5 less attack, 5 less defense, 1 less damage, 5% more incoming damage, 5% more spell resist on enemies greatly impact your play experience that you have to find new tactics to beat an encounter?

[themaxzero]

Bibdy wrote...

themaxzero wrote...



I'm happy with it.

Why? Does the -15% healing, 5 less attack, 5 less defense, 1 less damage, 5% more incoming damage, 5% more spell resist on enemies greatly impact your play experience that you have to find new tactics to beat an encounter?

Its more the CC reduction effects. CC is viable in normal much less so in nightmare/hard.

What does that leave?

Take, for example, the High Dragon. Apart from Stun (froma Rogue going crazy with stun runes and poisons) its by and large immune to CC effects. All thats left is the tank-> heal strat.

My question to you is what great, brand new strategy do you expect to find if you don't use potions? How are potions holding you back?

Modifié par themaxzero, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:39 .

[Bibdy]

themaxzero wrote...

Its more the CC reduction effects. CC is viable in normal much less so in nightmare/hard.

What does that leave?

Take, for example, the High Dragon. Apart from Stun (froma Rogue going crazy with stun runes and poisons) its by and large immune to CC effects. All thats left is the tank-> heal strat.

My question to you is what great, brand new strategy do you expect to find if you don't use potions? How are potions holding you back?

Forget potions, the thread has moved far from potions now (yes, its actually okay on the internet to have discussion that moves away from the original topic and still have some value).

What new strategy do I expect to find if the game is a lot harder (which could include not using potions)? I expect to have to approach an encounter with more strategy. Maybe using my Rogue to stealth in and get a jump on the enemy Mage, rather than relying on chucking a Crushing Prison or Fireball, or other CC at him to prevent him casting. Maybe pop a resistance potion to just take the brunt of his casted damage in the face. Maybe their offensive CC is powerful enough I have to send my Mage down the Dispel line to get rid of the nasty effects, rather than just heal through them. Maybe the regular creatures are now enough of a threat to my characters that I have to worry about CC'ing them a lot more with all my characters, not just the CC of the Mage, or using more of the defensive spells in the Creation tree, sacrificing damage for the sake of survival.

There's a lot that can change and you can discover and enjoy, strategically, just from a jump in difficulty.

Pulling any of that in the current game, to me, is just overkill. I can stealth my Rogue in and nuke the Mage, but why bother? I can happily burst through the door, chuck a fireball in his (and nearby archer's) face(s) and run my whole group at him and destroy him without fear of retaliation from the melee mobs that might be in front.

There's a difference between playing a certain way for the sake of it, and employing at as a tactic out of necessity.

Modifié par Bibdy, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:47 .

[themaxzero]

What can I say? Maybe you are just that good that you are completely beyond the game.

Maybe your definition of nightmare differs from that of the Developers.The fact is no matter how hard the game is there will always been someone who says "Its too easy!". Who does Bioware listen too?

I think, from the general reception the game has received around the web, your views seem to be in the minority. Your a niche of in a game that is already a niche.

Its possible that Bioware could listen to your pleas but perhaps it's something you may have to change yourself.

Modifié par themaxzero, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:55 .

[Bibdy]

That's an easy way out, no offense. You're the first person to actually engage in a civil discussion with me in the last few pages I've been posting in this thread, so I appreciate the dicussion, but it doesn't feel that way from where I'm sitting. If I felt like an elite gamer and knew I was that far above and beyond, and found it too easy, I probably wouldn't be posting here (or I would be posting, but suggesting some utterly EXTREME changes to the game to make things hard for me).

I'm really not that good. I've just got 100 hours in the game now and after 40 of them I was more than ready to tackle Nightmare, because the changes they implemented just don't make enough of the difference. I'm unsure why Bioware didn't include the BG2 model of "enemies do 50% more damage to you, but you deal 50% less damage to them". That would make Nightmare a HUGE leap over Normal and feel very challenging, not giving me any lee-way to screw around on almost every encounter.

The simple fact is, the gaming audience that Hard and Nightmare are meant to cater to, doesn't reach the mark at all. I have NEVER felt this way about a game before. Hand-of-God. Many years playing games and I have NEVER felt like any setting over Normal/Medium was this little of a challenge to me, so I honestly don't know what Bioware was thinking when they implemented the difficulty settings. There was a mistake made somewhere in the implementation and I just hope they acknowledge and correct it somewhere down the line, whether its in an expansion, or sequel or whatever.

It is something I could fix myself, through countless hours of coding and modding, but I have to learn how to do that level of scripting before I can do it. And really, I shouldn't HAVE to change anything myself. Unfortunately delving into the indignant "customer is always right" bull**** that I hate myself, but I shouldn't have to buy a product that offers higher difficulty levels that fail to impress me and then go out of my way to mod it, or wait several months after the game's release to get a mod which offers the kind of challenge I would expect, especially when EVERY other game in the past hasn't failed to impress me with their difficulty settings. I always get my ass kicked a little when I jump to Hard mode on a game, and have to play differently. That's just the way my gaming lifestyle is. Why is DA:O different, or even worse, an exception?

If I find Nightmare challenging, but want something more, I would expect to go into 'Modland' from that point. But a difficulty setting claiming to be 'Nightmarish' (even in its description it sounds pretty horrendous), that feels almost no different from normal (for good reason, I think, because the modifiers are +/- 5% here and there...), to someone who usually finds Normal modes a moderate challenge...that's just a mistake in the development of it.

Modifié par Bibdy, 10 décembre 2009 - 05:23 .