139 réponses à ce sujet

[wonko33]

Most of people's brilliant ideas are often just a matter of opinion, if your idea was in the game you would have just as many people coming in and complaining about it.



Also most of us are clueless about what changes would have to be made for the slightest idea we have. For example: in the archery mod, who would have thought changing archery would mess up Shale. they looked unrelated to me.

[CBGB]

'Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving taxi cabs and cutting hair.' - George Burns

[robertthebard]

Astorax wrote...

um.

Okay, let me splain.

No, would take too long, let me sum up.

MAYBE 100 developers on the biggest games out there.

MILLIONS of players.

It's called the shotgun principle. If you throw out an arbitrarily large number of ideas (players) some of them will be good ones.

You have to consider all of the unbelievably terrible ideas that are also thrown out by players into that statement.

If say, .1% of player ideas are good (better than devs) ideas, that means 99.9% of them are worse...

This, and let me tell you some of the 99.9% of the ideas that hit this forum are, without a doubt, stupid.  I worked as a GM and area/story writer for a NWN module for a couple of years, and it was easy to come up with stuff that way.  I had all the tools already at my disposal, and what I wasn't the best at, the guy that initially started the mod was.  It wasn't ever a 700 player mod, but we had a loyal following for quite a while.  I also branched off into making my own module, that was well received by the people that actually looked at it, but again, I had the benefit of both all the NWN's campaigns, and my work on the other module, and all the time I needed to take to get it exactly how I wanted it.  Game designers don't have that luxury, they have deadlines, and schedules to meet.

[wonko33]

CBGB wrote...

'Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving taxi cabs and cutting hair.' - George Burns

Exactly, I think a lot of politicians aren't really lying about their promises, it's just when they come to power and have all the info they realize it's impossible to implement.

[VanDraegon]

kevinwastaken wrote...

There are only a couple with boobies right now. The boobie scene hasn't yet matured for DAO. Give it time though and there will be a boobies explosion.

Mmmmmm...boobie explosion.  

[th3warr1or]

JabberJaww wrote...

I am more impressed by the brains who come up with a game like this from the ground up.

The modders already have the template in front of them... the actual game.

Its easier to sit here and see a finished product and come up with ideas to change things... the hard part is sitting in a room with a blank sheet of paper and actually come up with the idea.

But no matter how great the base game is, why is the DLC terrible?

Giltspur wrote...
I can see I've sort of missed your
point which seems more to be "Why are player mods better than official
DLC's. than it is 'why are players smarter than devs'.

Sorry, yeah that's what I meant.

[XOGHunter246]

you want to know why devs don't have better idea your wrong they do. They want you to want these things so when they make these things happen you will buy all dlcs and games. you think they will make one game that meets all of everyones needs? this wouldn't make as much money as making it gradually in various games they make means more money for them.

[Stormstrider32]

Players know everything.  Just like teenagers...

[th3warr1or]

I mean look at the Trailer Edition mod, that looks like 10x better than the Warden's armor. And thanks to the Devs being unable to do something like that, console users like me have to suffer.



The Trailer Edition Sten face also looks better than the current Sten, which actually looks fat if you give him any helmet that doesn't cover his face.

[th3warr1or]

XOGHunter246 wrote...

you want to know why devs don't have better idea your wrong they do. They want you to want these things so when they make these things happen you will buy all dlcs and games. you think they will make one game that meets all of everyones needs? this wouldn't make as much money as making it gradually in various games they make means more money for them.

So far the DLC hasn't been near anyone's needs at all. I would say that would have made a lot more sense if they released episodic DLC rather than money sponges.

[th3warr1or]

The CORE game on it's on, without any add-ons is easily one of my Top 3 RPGs. But taking everything, which includes the DLC value and replayability, and it drops to top 10.



I mean seriously, Warden's Keep locking you out?

[XOGHunter246]

like i said they not going to meet your needs all in once it's part of sales and it obviously works as we buy all their goods. they add stuff over time could be years but this is how devs make money it part of selling products.

[giskard44]

Good question.



But to ask that, you must have seen lots of cool ideas that appeared as a result of us players seeing the ideas the devs already had. So we build what went before.



Now if you asked a player "whats a good idea for my new RPG called "my best every rpg" and they have to think of things from scratch, the ideas will not be so hot because theres no basis for comparision.



Also devs have other considerations to factor in such as deadlines, distribution, platform specific issues etc etc that modders do not even care about.

[montana_boy]

th3warr1or wrote...

I don't get it. What is it about becoming a developer that makes them lose all the bright and interesting ideas? Of course, there'll always be people who will disagree, so some people may think that the developer's ideas are way better than player ideas.

One other thing to consider... the game idea's that developers come up with and use in the game MUST work.  I wouldn't doubt that several of the so-called "good ideas" from fans have been thought up by the Bioware folks and rejected on technical or story, game play issues.

Last weekend my wife wanted me to fix a plumbing problem... she said,  "its easy."  I said, "it is always easy if some other guy has to do it."

[Gliese]

Even if it might seem this way sometimes to individual people, one should consider that the devs are not only thinking about their personal preferences like the typical player is, they have to account for thousands or millions (thumbs crossed) of players and make it a game that is enjoyable for more than just one individual or a small subset of the player base.

They shouldn't try to please everyone but at the same time they will be hampered in being too extreme with a solid title with expected return on the investment.

[Wolfva2]

Because the players are standing upon the shoulders of the Devs. It is MUCH easier to see how something that is already created can be 'better' then it already is. But to have actually created it in the first place? THAT is hard.



Hey man...know like, what would be like, a great idea mannnn? I think like, all warriors should like, do like this thing when they like, fight, and it would be like SHZAM! and WOOOP! and POW and like, it'd be like, you know, they'd be all like dude and the bad guys would be all like dude and like, yeah man!! Wouldn't that be like, awesome duuuude?!? DUDE! I'm like, smarter then those dumb devs! Why can't they like, be like, smarter? Cuz I'm da man dude! I'm da man! Like, wow!

[Kimberly Shaw]

The only design decision I can see being an absolute problem of group think was mage hoods. WHAT? Super bad. No one should defend those things, they are fugly.

[Loc'n'lol]

Astorax wrote...

It's called the shotgun principle.

Oh I didn't know that one, gotta use it sometime.

Also, what the mod said.

[Kaosgirl]

Astorax wrote...

um.

Okay, let me splain.

No, would take too long, let me sum up.

MAYBE 100 developers on the biggest games out there.

MILLIONS of players.

It's called the shotgun principle. If you throw out an arbitrarily large number of ideas (players) some of them will be good ones.

You have to consider all of the unbelievably terrible ideas that are also thrown out by players into that statement.

If say, .1% of player ideas are good (better than devs) ideas, that means 99.9% of them are worse...

This.

And the need to build the basic framework for the game.  If the developers could take a pre-built game and just spend all their time brainstorming on how to make it better, they could probably come up with a host of more interesting ideas as well - but when they're also responsible for building the basic framework on which those ideas are going to be implemented, they have to take time away from that aspect in order to get that frame designed as well.  Otherwise, the game won't ever get done - it'll turn into vaporware, all ideas and no substance.

[purplesunset]

I like to encourage people to think one step beyond the fullstop of their opinion.

This is something I still encourage myself  to do, and it took years for me to develop this ability.

What does thinking beyond the fullstop mean?

<insert my opinion here> <fullstop>

Should I leave it at that? No. I should go one step further and see what it implies. It's ramifications.

How is this relevant to this thread?

Well, many people will come here and understandably defend the devs with the following arguments:

--- Defense # 1: Well, the devs work for a corporation. They have to make their ideas to fit into what the company would see as financially succesful. fullstop.

Go beyond the fullstop. This translates into: Well, devs might have great ideas but they have to bend, and bastardize them to make them palatable before the company they work for would swallow said idea.

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--- Defense # 2. Well, they have to consider if the idea is going to make a lot of $money$.


Beyond the fullstop: Creativity is the bane of big corporations. They hate creativity because creativity  is invariably analagous to "financial risk."

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--- Defense # 3 (Related to # 1) Devs do  have brilliant ideas, but since they don't work in a vacuum, they have to consider all the other people involved with implementing said idea.

Beyond the fullstop: And the bigger the gaming company, the less of a vacuum it is, and the more he has to lobotomize his idea before the implementation process begins.

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---Defense # 4

Players do NOT have better ideas than developers. There are a TON of silly or unrealistic ideas out there by players, but due to tunnel vision, the reader only pays attention to ideas that he likes. 

Beyond the fullstop: Tunnel vision combined with "I like this idea, therefore it is good"  is the best explanation for what the OP noticed in his first post. (Comparing "cool" mod ideas vs. "boring" DLC ideas). The other defenses can ultimately portray the developers who work for a big corporation  in a rather unflattering way.

[Nick the Weregoat]

One thing worthy of consideration is the game is on a time table. They have a fixed amount of resources, whether it's money to pay the developers, rent, and electricity, time to release the game in time for it's due date, or maybe one of the developers have a badass idea and he just can't sell it right. Or maybe he has it too late and there's no time to put it in.



Or maybe they can't make it work with the way the game runs. Or maybe they think it would be lame.



I'm sure there was somebody at Nintendo that wanted to know why Mario was a plumber . . . Maybe somebody else thought he should be a pro-wrestler.



The Super Mario Wrestling franchise would have come out, been a little bit of fun, then Smash Brothers would have never popped into existence. So thank your lucky stars he's a plumber.

[Astorax]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Astorax wrote...

It's called the shotgun principle.

Oh I didn't know that one, gotta use it sometime.

Also, what the mod said.

It actually has a more full description of the principle...

it's the "shotgun bullcrap principle" (even as a mod we're discouraged from triggering the swear filter)

[Bumb48]

Eh, I dunno. I've seen many lame ideas on this very board!

[TheRealIncarnal]

It's one thing to have great ideas, it's another thing to make them work well in the game. It's like saying "I want to make the fastest car in the world, and I want it to fully electric!" vs. Actually going out and building that car. Huge difference.



However, if you think you can do better, I strongly encourage you to use the toolset! It's the entire reason that Bioware made it so readily available. You can literally do anything Bioware did in the game with it, so you have no less of an excuse than they do.

[TheWarProdigy]

Don't know if it's been said already (well, i read vaporware and when you speak of vaporware... the king must be mentioned , but if the devs kept going back to the drawing board after every suggestion... we would be in Duke Nukem: Forever territory folks. Let them release a playable version and get some fan base then see what the some popular suggestions are and incorporate them into the next iteration. Console users are SOL on mods so for them, this is better than no game at all. PC users have that luxury of tweaking a game so any wrongs can be fixed with a diligent group. so it's win-win for PC users. But again, a game has to be released to give anyone a chance to do anything. It's a new series right? let's see this baby mature into a fully polished gem.