139 réponses à ce sujet

[inSPECTRE Shepard_]

It's a lot easier to build off something that's already been made. You have to appreciate the game starts from nothing, anyone can take the finished product and say "well it would be cool if it had this as well".

Modifié par inSPECTRE Shepard , 09 décembre 2009 - 11:56 .

[FRZN]

weevils

[th3warr1or]

TheRealIncarnal wrote...
However, if you think you can do better, I strongly encourage you to use the toolset! It's the entire reason that Bioware made it so readily available. You can literally do anything Bioware did in the game with it, so you have no less of an excuse than they do.

Console gamer.

Hence, Developers not having as good ideas than Players, actually affects me directly, since I can only get official content, and that official content isn't anywhere as good as the normal content.

[ozenglish]

CJohnJones wrote...

One word: toolset.

Second word,

Hindsight. We have played it through, don't have to programme it, and have the luxury to gripe about it and not have to fit it into a story line. Try being creative in your current place of work, and see how that pans out. Sure doesn't work at mine.

[XOGHunter246]

Ok i have seen a few good ideas from the gamers but i have seen tons which aren't really worth putting in. Not saying gamers don't have good ideas at times but some of them are just petty things which aren't important.

Bioware is a company they have to meet deadlines and finish things for whatever timescale they have and also you may not want to believe it mainly about making money. If they put in all these ideas in one game it would cost a bomb to buy the games to make the money back again.

[Juggernawt]

Stormstrider32 wrote...

Players know everything.  Just like teenagers...

In that case, just imagine what teenage players know!!!
Boggles the mind.

[ArcanistLibram]

Hindsight just kinda works that way.

[EternalCMO]

Also, take into account the fact that developers have deadlines, a certain amount of resources, restrictions based on the platform the game is being developed for, and a number of other variables that could restrict what can and cannot go into the final product. I believe that is why there is this new fad going around with DLC - like them or not - they are additional content that the developers feel could benefit the game and they have no obligations to provide it.

[Zan Mura]

No offense to the OP, but having seen your previous posts and the level of thought you've put into them, it certainly doesn't come as a surprise to see you behind the words I just read in the first post. This is not personal though, people are different and thank gods for that. I have my own flaws too, some of which are severe enough that I will speak no more of them here.

But one of my strengths is the ability to usually see the bigger picture. In this case it's *very* simple. Players always have better ideas than Developers because of this:

1. They completely lack the vision and insight to see their ideas through. More than most of the ideas spewed by people can be picked apart only to reveal some serious flaws after no more than a glance. Flaws the likes of which make these suggestions a hundred times more trouble and error than they're even worth.

2. They have no clue as to the costs and real issues of the project at hand. Everyone's an expert on Windows for example, pointing out its flaws and issues. Yet 99.999999% of these people cannot even grasp the bare basics of the knowledge, experience and effort required to DO that task themselves.

3. Random fans are not bound by the very real limitations of the devs. They don't have to care about profit, laws, copyright issues, deadlines, funding and technological constraints, morals and ethics, public opinion, minimum quality requirements, various studies and demographics that are necessary to point out which parts are worth the development hours and which are not, in the grand scheme of things in this scientific field of business economy. Etc...

And the list really goes on. As it usually works in any field known to man, it seems as if the people with the least experience, knowledge and capability to actually do anything worth a damn always seem to know best. In a way, the more experienced and knowledgeable you get, the better you begin to realise how much of your innovative ideas are trash before embarrassing yourself and speaking them out loud. I guess that's the reason the silent types are often thought to be more intelligent.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 10 décembre 2009 - 08:12 .

[Haexpane]

th3warr1or wrote...

I don't get it. What is it about becoming a developer that makes them lose all the bright and interesting ideas? Of course, there'll always be people who will disagree, so some people may think that the developer's ideas are way better than player ideas.

But for the most part, for almost every and any game, there will be a bunch of people who come up with better ideas than any Dev for that game ever will. Of course, those ideas are never used because of copyright issues, and since the Devs didn't come up with it, they're the company is afraid that they'll be sued if they use it.

I mean I've seen several modders who've got tons and tons of ideas as it is. Why can't BioWare come up with that kind of DLC? Fair enough it's only been slightly over a month since the release, but if all the DLC is going to be like Warden's Keep, that's really disappointing.

Fantasy land much?   Any clown can "Come up w/ an idea"   There is a big difference between ranting an idea like "PLAYABLE DRAGONS!" and actually coding some gameplay that works.

I submit to you as evidence FAN FICTION.  99.9999% of all fan fiction is horrible drivel.  This urban myth that "fans" can do it better than creators was put to the test long ago, the fans FAILED in every way.

There are some great user mods for many games, Counterstrike, Morrowind etc.. but none of it would exist without the core tool set, created by the DEVs.

[BioXav]

One word: Constraints.

Players don't normally consider time, budget, mass-appeal (vs their own), or any of a number of other contraints that a developer (and team) have to consider.

[Dex1701]

Players are only concerned with things they think are "cool." Developers have to think about their target audience (they have to be concerned with pleasing a lot of different people), development difficulty, time and cost, game balance, bugs, exploits, etc.

Occasionally a modder comes up with an idea that eluded the developers, but I think mostly what's happening is that the developers have a lot more responsibility for the state of the game than players do.

Me: "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if cars could fly? Why hasn't Ford thought of that?"
Ford: "Eh, yeah...would be neat...we'll get right on that...right after the legal department figures out how to handle all of the law suits that start rolling in after half of our customers crash and die..."

Modifié par Dex1701, 11 décembre 2009 - 08:30 .

[dmcguk]

Come back after you have done some game design its not as simple as you would like believe me.

[EJ42]

I like the God analogy where God challenges a scientist to a man-making competition. The scientist reaches down for a handful of dirt, and God says, "Oh no! Get your own dirt."



The developers created a vast world filled with lore. Expanding upon and/or modifying that lore is trivial in comparison to starting from nothing.

[Varasin]

A lot of players THINK they have better ideas than the developers, but I find that it's rarely true.

[Haexpane]

EJ42 wrote...

I like the God analogy where God challenges a scientist to a man-making competition. The scientist reaches down for a handful of dirt, and God says, "Oh no! Get your own dirt."
 .

That also works if you replace god w/ the easter bunny

[Zejoph]

Astorax wrote...

um.

Okay, let me splain.

No, would take too long, let me sum up.

MAYBE 100 developers on the biggest games out there.

MILLIONS of players.

It's called the shotgun principle. If you throw out an arbitrarily large number of ideas (players) some of them will be good ones.

You have to consider all of the unbelievably terrible ideas that are also thrown out by players into that statement.

If say, .1% of player ideas are good (better than devs) ideas, that means 99.9% of them are worse...

This.

[Dex1701]

Haexpane wrote...

EJ42 wrote...

I like the God analogy where God challenges a scientist to a man-making competition. The scientist reaches down for a handful of dirt, and God says, "Oh no! Get your own dirt."
 .

That also works if you replace god w/ the easter bunny

Doesn't work because the Easter Bunny is a man-made concept. 



Wait...

[EJ42]

Haexpane wrote...

EJ42 wrote...

I like the God analogy where God challenges a scientist to a man-making competition. The scientist reaches down for a handful of dirt, and God says, "Oh no! Get your own dirt."
 .

That also works if you replace god w/ the easter bunny

Did you hear that?  That was the sound of the point whooshing over your head.

The developers made the game.  They started with nothing.  It's easy to come along, look at some creation, and come up with a way to improve upon it.

Perhaps I should have said "Flying Spaghetti Monster" to have spared your sensitive little eyes from such a horrible concept as God.

[GHL_Soul_Reaver]

Astorax wrote...

um.

Okay, let me splain.

No, would take too long, let me sum up.

MAYBE 100 developers on the biggest games out there.

MILLIONS of players.

It's called the shotgun principle. If you throw out an arbitrarily large number of ideas (players) some of them will be good ones.

You have to consider all of the unbelievably terrible ideas that are also thrown out by players into that statement.

If say, .1% of player ideas are good (better than devs) ideas, that means 99.9% of them are worse...

Then why did they leave out stuff like Bowstrings... better visuals... general bugs... and general stuff as it is, it would seem rather dekadent, of course you can say that we got a toolset, but the keepers of it should still had been doing a better job completing the actual game, for then players not making fixes but rather new areas and mods to the game instead.

[TastyLaksa]

th3warr1or wrote...

TheRealIncarnal wrote...
However, if you think you can do better, I strongly encourage you to use the toolset! It's the entire reason that Bioware made it so readily available. You can literally do anything Bioware did in the game with it, so you have no less of an excuse than they do.

Console gamer.

Hence, Developers not having as good ideas than Players, actually affects me directly, since I can only get official content, and that official content isn't anywhere as good as the normal content.

Put a PC on christmas list quick!

[Dauphin2]

Players aren't constrained by reality. Great ideas, that would:



A) cost too much

take too long

C) aren't possible with the game engine

D) would break the game

E) would infringe on someone else's IP

F) aren't really that great.

[Andrew Eric Knight]

Time constraints, budget, man power, bug fixing, engine, toolset development, overtime, sickness, vacation days, coffee overdoses, approval process, scope, scale, ESRB, memory limits, performance...

list is endless. Everything you see in DA COULD of been better, could of been longer.

Lothering was originally planned to be a much larger area, with a ton of light content. You know the rocks in the bridge by the exit? that used to open up to a whole other zone. The origonal plan was to defend Lothering against a advanced scout group of darkspawn. There were a lot of fun quests in the areas around the town as well (was about 300% bigger).

Unfortunately, due to the above list, and more, it was cut. Every game goes through this.

Modifié par Andrew Eric Knight, 15 décembre 2009 - 05:00 .

[Dauphin2]

ESRB. Never really thought about that angle, but yeah I can see how that could affect things, especially in a game like DA.

[Zenon]

Andrew Eric Knight wrote...

Time constraints, budget, man power, bug fixing, engine, toolset development, overtime, sickness, vacation days, coffee overdoses, approval process, scope, scale, ESRB, memory limits, performance...

list is endless. Everything you see in DA COULD of been better, could of been longer.

Lothering was originally planned to be a much larger area, with a ton of light content. You know the rocks in the bridge by the exit? that used to open up to a whole other zone. The origonal plan was to defend Lothering against a advanced scout group of darkspawn. There were a lot of fun quests in the areas around the town as well (was about 300% bigger).

Unfortunately, due to the above list, and more, it was cut. Every game goes through this.

In fact some extra stuff like that could still make it into the game as DLC. At least hearing some of these great ideas had to be cut out of priorities and constraints lets my fantasy fly.