139 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Zenon wrote...
In fact some extra stuff like that could still make it into the game as DLC.

Inevitable result:

WHaaa--AAT?! YOU CUT THAT *JUST* TO PUT IT IN DLC?! ADMIT IT!! OUTRAGE!! MARMALADE!!

[Felix_Domestica]

MOAR!

[Romeriez Galenar]

There wouldn't be as much outrage over putting it in DLC if it was longer than a coffee break, wasn't misrepresented, and bugged as all heck.



Well perhaps I should say, I wouldn't find it outrageous.

[Kiln223]

th3warr1or wrote...

I don't get it. What is it about becoming a developer that makes them lose all the bright and interesting ideas? Of course, there'll always be people who will disagree, so some people may think that the developer's ideas are way better than player ideas.

But for the most part, for almost every and any game, there will be a bunch of people who come up with better ideas than any Dev for that game ever will. Of course, those ideas are never used because of copyright issues, and since the Devs didn't come up with it, they're the company is afraid that they'll be sued if they use it.

I mean I've seen several modders who've got tons and tons of ideas as it is. Why can't BioWare come up with that kind of DLC? Fair enough it's only been slightly over a month since the release, but if all the DLC is going to be like Warden's Keep, that's really disappointing.

Well you're obviously perfect so why don't you start your own game company, then when you're the best on the market you can judge all the others.

[SphereofSilence]

purplesunset wrote...

Let me revisit my idea about "going beyond the fullstop" which I mentioned on page 2:

Can't you see what your post is implying, if you go one step further ?

Your post means that indie and small game companies can best cater to a niche market and if it so happens that you share their passion, then lucky you. If you don't share their passion for the niche product, then you will absolutely hate the game (incidentally with a passion ). Hence it is a love it or hate it kind of thing.

With bigger companies, they  can't afford "love it or hate it" games. They could tank and go under which is not good for any of us who love gaming. They DO have to worry increasingly about "pleasing everyone" or "pleasing their bosses."
They have to worry about these things because the more people they please, the more customers they have. This concern will understandably have a crippling effect on the ideas and the creativity involved in big gaming companies.

'Games industry is dead' were the heavy-hearted words my long time gaming bud used to express his disillusionment at more and more modern games going ever backwards when it comes to creativity, originality and gameplay. 

Modifié par SphereofSilence, 15 décembre 2009 - 06:03 .

[iw4o]

[malicious content removed]

[purplesunset]

SphereofSilence wrote...

purplesunset wrote...
Your post means that indie and small game companies can best cater to a niche market and if it so happens that you share their passion, then lucky you. If you don't share their passion for the niche product, then you will absolutely hate the game (incidentally with a passion ). Hence it is a love it or hate it kind of thing.

With bigger companies, they  can't afford "love it or hate it" games. They could tank and go under which is not good for any of us who love gaming. They DO have to worry increasingly about "pleasing everyone" or "pleasing their bosses."
They have to worry about these things because the more people they please, the more customers they have. This concern will understandably have a crippling effect on the ideas and the creativity involved in big gaming companies.

'Games industry is dead' were the heavy-hearted words my long time gaming bud used to express his disillusionment at more and more modern games going ever backwards when it comes to creativity, originality and gameplay. 

This is mostly true for big gaming companies that have to please gigantic publishers like EA. The bigger the company, the bigger of an issue budget, time constraints, boss approval, etc. becomes.

There are a few exceptions like

1. Heavy Rain

2. A game which had great developer ideas, but the execution was banal and poor

Your friend's best bet is to go indie. Indie companies have their share of problems too.  Sometimes they are forced to close down, sometimes budget constraints are too much. But when things work out,  there will invariably be a unique game at the end. E.g. Culpa Innata...one of the most mature and original games I've ever played.

Modifié par purplesunset, 15 décembre 2009 - 06:29 .

[Niten Ryu]

th3warr1or wrote...
I don't get it. What is it about becoming a developer that makes them lose all the bright and interesting ideas?

It's all about budget, schedules, that guy one tier above you in hierarchy (that goes all the way to the top) and what's popular currently. There's only few developers in the world who can manage all that.

Jr combat mechanics designer might have best idea in the world but if he can't sell that idea to his seniors, nothing is going to happen. Maybe that other designer don't get the idea at all and choose only some parts of the idea and thus totally destroy what jr was looking for. When combat system ends up sucking badly, blame game goes all the way to the down, no matter if what jr designer had anything to do with the final system.

Myabe idea is just too grand to be done with current resources. Motion capture, custom AI for animations, physics engine tweaks, too many different models need unique animations, overall polygons per scene, memory limitations, ect ect.

Even if the idea is great, players in general might hate it. Safe bet is to choose quick time events or other, easy for everyone route. It can be dumbing down difficulty so that failure is almost impossible or to add pause ect ect.

In theory, mod makes can do what that like, only their skill and time is the limit. But then again, they rarely finish the job or if they do manage to finish it, end result might still suck because skill just wasn't there.

[SphereofSilence]

purplesunset wrote...

This is mostly true for big gaming companies that have to please gigantic publishers like EA. The bigger the company, the bigger of an issue budget, time constraints, boss approval, etc. becomes.

There are a few exceptions like

1. Heavy Rain

2. A game which had great developer ideas, but the execution was banal and poor

Your friend's best bet is to go indie. Indie companies have their share of problems too.  Sometimes they are forced to close down, sometimes budget constraints are too much. But when things work out,  there will invariably be a unique game at the end. E.g. Culpa Innata...one of the most mature and original games I've ever played.

You're right. Most of the games these days he did enjoy were titles from unheard of companies, some which which has gone under. He always spoke with noticeably more excitement about the fresh approaches from these games.

This discussion makes me come to the realization how limited my palette of games is compared to what's available out there. It's time to explore.


 

[Lacan2]

Yeah right. It's true that they can come up with fixes and better solutions to issues with an already completed game.



But then watch these people write a script, see how ridiculously bad it turns out. And then put them in a room and make them hammer out a schedule of development: see how far they get before things fall apart.

[Adria Teksuni]

On top of the other excellent reasons, shotgun principle, implementation, etc. for the (I'm being generous) dozens of excellent, well executed, wonderfully written mods and ideas, there are hundreds and hundreds of ones that are just utter crap.

[purplesunset]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

On top of the other excellent reasons, shotgun principle, implementation, etc. for the (I'm being generous) dozens of excellent, well executed, wonderfully written mods and ideas, there are hundreds and hundreds of ones that are just utter crap.

LOL. True, you do have to wade through a lot of swill to find the good user created mods. But remember how some people say that   the mods on the vault were better than the OC (referring to NWN 1 without the expansions).

I personally love the NWN OC,  though, for sheer nostalgia.It was my introduction to D&D.

[bzombo]

Andrew Eric Knight wrote...

Time constraints, budget, man power, bug fixing, engine, toolset development, overtime, sickness, vacation days, coffee overdoses, approval process, scope, scale, ESRB, memory limits, performance...

list is endless. Everything you see in DA COULD of been better, could of been longer.

Lothering was originally planned to be a much larger area, with a ton of light content. You know the rocks in the bridge by the exit? that used to open up to a whole other zone. The origonal plan was to defend Lothering against a advanced scout group of darkspawn. There were a lot of fun quests in the areas around the town as well (was about 300% bigger).

Unfortunately, due to the above list, and more, it was cut. Every game goes through this.

it would make for an excellent future expansion of lothering!!!!!!

[Adria Teksuni]

purplesunset wrote...
LOL. True, you do have to wade through a lot of swill to find the good user created mods. But remember how some people say that   the mods on the vault were better than the OC (referring to NWN 1 without the expansions).

I personally love the NWN OC,  though, for sheer nostalgia.It was my introduction to D&D.

Well...from what I've seen it's pretty much the consesus that the Campaign in NWN was most definitely not Bioware's best work, it was included in a vehicle meant to promote the toolset.  The bar was pretty low for NWN. 

Additionally, the modders have the opportunity to focus on their work as much as they want, for as long as they want, and as the tools are already there, no development tools to...well...develop.

No deadlines, mulitple projects, or bosses to ultimately answer to gives the individual modder a great deal more freedom than a game developer has.  Devs have to always always always think big picture.  Modders can concentrate on their bit of the picture.

[bzombo]

JabberJaww wrote...

I am more impressed by the brains who come up with a game like this from the ground up.

The modders already have the template in front of them... the actual game.

Its easier to sit here and see a finished product and come up with ideas to change things... the hard part is sitting in a room with a blank sheet of paper and actually come up with the idea.

what he said.

[Adria Teksuni]

Evainelithe wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Zenon wrote...
In fact some extra stuff like that could still make it into the game as DLC.

Inevitable result:

WHaaa--AAT?! YOU CUT THAT *JUST* TO PUT IT IN DLC?! ADMIT IT!! OUTRAGE!! MARMALADE!!

So erm, ignore that? You can't please everyone anyway. Most of us are quite happy with extra content I'm sure no matter where it comes from.

Most of the time they do ignore it.  That's part of what people are kvetching about in this thread.

[SheffSteel]

A better question would be:-

Why do players think they have better ideas than Developers?



Who is judging how good these ideas are?

[Cat Lance]

Astorax wrote...

um.

Okay, let me splain.

No, would take too long, let me sum up.

MAYBE 100 developers on the biggest games out there.

MILLIONS of players.

It's called the shotgun principle. If you throw out an arbitrarily large number of ideas (players) some of them will be good ones.

You have to consider all of the unbelievably terrible ideas that are also thrown out by players into that statement.

If say, .1% of player ideas are good (better than devs) ideas, that means 99.9% of them are worse...

Don't forget that that might also be the only good idea said person ever comes up with. Developers are people who consistently produce good ideas.

[bzombo]

sleepy__head wrote...

You have to consider all of the unbelievably terrible ideas that are also thrown out by players into that statement.

If say, .1% of player ideas are good (better than devs) ideas, that means 99.9% of them are worse...

I bet such a mission statement on the game's main website would do wonders for sales.

"Bioware : We are BETTER than 99.9% of you"

i think that would make me like bioware more.

[SheffSteel]

Bioware: better than 50,000,000 monkeys with typewriters.

[Sloth Of Doom]

SheffSteel wrote...

Bioware: better than 50,000,000 monkeys with typewriters.

Everyone knows it is the 50, 000,001st monky that has all the good ideas anyways.

[themaxzero]

David Gaider wrote...

Zenon wrote...
In fact some extra stuff like that could still make it into the game as DLC.

Inevitable result:

WHaaa--AAT?! YOU CUT THAT *JUST* TO PUT IT IN DLC?! ADMIT IT!! OUTRAGE!! MARMALADE!!

So when is it coming out as DLC? Lothering always felt a little abrupt.

I has the money, will pay.

[Forwen]

Enchantment [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

I have an idea! An open world like Morrowind with a story like Baldur's Gate 2.   There, I've just proven that BioWare are sore losers and I deserve their cheques.