428 réponses à ce sujet

[Icesong]

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Kaidan at least doesn't tell my character the Reapers can send him to hell. He's pissed but he actually dies with some dignity.

Doesn't he die comparing Shepard to Saren?

No. He dies saying something about it being better not to have killed the wrong man.

As I said before Kaidan's death made me feel bad. Ashley's made me wanna put a few more rounds in her.

Ashley has another line when she dies here that goes something like "I was just doing what you taught me". Maybe Kaidan does too.

Modifié par Icesong, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:12 .

[Ryzaki]

Icesong wrote...
Ashley's has another line when she dies here that goes something like "I was just doing what you taught me". Maybe Kaidan does too.

Hm...let me check. He just says Shepard.

He might have another one let me check.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:16 .

[iamweaver]

Ryzaki wrote...

iamweaver wrote...
Correct.  An XO and CO are a team, working closely together.  In the modern US Navy, the XO is tasked with the day-to-day operation o the ship, unit morale, and acts as a sounding board for their CO.

An Admiral is a General Staff Officer, who makes the big strategic or larget tactical decisions.  Ne has a staff to assist him, but i he has the equivalent of an XO, it's usually his Flag Captain (the commander of his flagship).  Even then, the rols is not the same.

Theres a really big divide between a General Staff occicer (General.Admiral), and the ranks below it.

I realize that you might not know this, and so it wouldn't occur to you as you role play - so I'm really just providing it as general info.

...Anderson is an Admiral last I checked. So...that big divide would be there with him and Shep as much as it would be there with Hackett and Ashley.

That's correct. And if Shepherd were on his staff, the relationship would look completely different from the one that we see.

But he's not - he's not only an independant operator given wide latitude of powers, but assigned by Hackett to work closely with the Admiral.  What's more the admiral decided tomake their relationship to be one that's closer to a mentor/pupil one than one of strict military formality.  That was the Admiral's call, from the first scene in which we see the two of them together.  Of course, in the final scenes, it's just about two war buddies regardless of rank trying to survive.

Modifié par iamweaver, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:14 .

[M920CAIN]

Wait... so you shot Ashley and you expected what? a hug?

[Ryzaki]

iamweaver wrote...
That's correct. And if Shepherd were on his staff, the relationship would look completely different from the one that we see.

But he's not - he's not only an independant operator given wide latitude of powers, but assigned by Hackett to work closely with the Admiral.  What's more the admiral decided tomake their relationship to be one that's closer to a mentor/pupil one than one of strict military formality.  That was the Admiral's call, from the first scene in which we see the two of them together.  Of course, in the final scenes, it's just about two war buddies regardless of rank trying to survive.

*looks at Shep and Hackett in ME1*

Uh...not really. Shep can tell Hackett to bugger off quite a few times with nothing other than a shrug or a don't forget your roots as a response. Yeah at that time Shep's a spectre but...that doesn't really excuse it because Ashley has that same excuse.

Same thing with that dude who wanted to examine the Normandy.

...Bugger off tends to be renedouche's default state come to think of it.

Civilians did make this game. Of course it's not going to mirror the actual military.

...that still doesn't stop Ashley from asking Hackett a question about the secruity of the war effort and getting an answer though. (This is the same person who does that to Shepard despite him being the commander of the ship and him knowing her for what? A few weeks?) I highly doubt she'd lose that tongue when speaking to Hackett.

Agreed on the war buddies thing...but Anderson and Shep have always had that type of relationship since ME1. It's not something new.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:25 .

[iamweaver]

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus both Ash and Kaidan have squads with them. My Shep priotirizes the bomb going off. If the Geth have enough time to dismantle it everything's been for nothing.

Exactly. In my case, Ashley was with my squad, and Kaiden went with the commandos.  I never can understand how anyone that's actually role-playing can make any other choice.

[Ryzaki]

iamweaver wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Plus both Ash and Kaidan have squads with them. My Shep priotirizes the bomb going off. If the Geth have enough time to dismantle it everything's been for nothing.

Exactly. In my case, Ashley was with my squad, and Kaiden went with the commandos.  I never can understand how anyone that's actually role-playing can make any other choice.

I have to admit the AA fight scene with Saren looks better. But yeah Kaidan's at the bomb so that's who my Shep saved.

Still peeved you can't say that's why you saved him.

[iamweaver]

Ryzaki wrote...

iamweaver wrote...
That's correct. And if Shepherd were on his staff, the relationship would look completely different from the one that we see.

But he's not - he's not only an independant operator given wide latitude of powers, but assigned by Hackett to work closely with the Admiral.  What's more the admiral decided tomake their relationship to be one that's closer to a mentor/pupil one than one of strict military formality.  That was the Admiral's call, from the first scene in which we see the two of them together.  Of course, in the final scenes, it's just about two war buddies regardless of rank trying to survive.

*looks at Shep and Hackett in ME1*

Uh...not really. Shep can tell hackett to bugger off quite a few times with nothing other than a shrug. Yeah at that time Shep's a spectre but...that doesn't really excuse it because Ashley has that same excuse.

remembers CIVILIANS made this game. Of course it's not going to mirror the actual military.

...that still doesn't stop Ashley from asking Hackett a question about the secruity of the war effort and getting an answer though. (This is the same person who does that to Shepard despite him being the commander of the ship and him knowing her for what? A few weeks?) I highly doubt she'd lose that tongue when speaking to Hackett.

Agreed on the war buddies thing...but Anderson and Shep have always had that type of relationship since ME1. It's not something new.

I already mentioned that because of her Spectre status, she could have used that to quiz Hackett about SHepherd, regardless of being on his staff or not.

But why would she?  Shepherd gave her some assurances that he wasn't really with Cerberus, and he didn't directly impact her current mission.  But then, right when Cerburus operatives are expected to step off of the elevator, Shephard appears.  He's got 3 guns, she's got 1, and you start talking about stopping Udina.  And Shepherd never bothered to check up on her after she got splattered - so she's probably a little miffed on some level, and wondering why tyou wouldn't bother visiting an old comrad in ICU.

As for Shepherd/Anderson - when we first met them, they had a CO/XO relationship. This relationship continued through ME1, in that Anderson was a Captain without a command, and Shepherd was the captain of a ship.  They aren't in the same chain of command, and like each other..  But when we first meet Admiral Anderson in ME3, the relationship starts out properly formal, as it should.  At that point, the Admiral, who is in control of the direction of the relationship with a subordinate officer, decided to make the relationship be a bit informal, though still clrarrly one of a superior officer to a junior.


And on a different note:  The whole Shepherd/Ash relationship is a Court Martial offense in both ME1 and 3.  I guess it adds some spice to it .

[AlexMBrennan]

M920CAIN wrote...

Wait... so you shot Ashley and you expected what? a hug?

Context? Look it up if you don't know the words.

[Hackulator]

People get mad at Ashley for hating on you for joining Cerberus. In case you didn't notice, SHE WAS RIGHT.

[CptData]

Hackulator wrote...

People get mad at Ashley for hating on you for joining Cerberus. In case you didn't notice, SHE WAS RIGHT.

Guess sometimes people simply look for reasons to hate a character than for reasons to understand that character.

Most of the hate towards Ash is based on the fact people who hate her don't understand her character.

[Barquiel]

Hackulator wrote...

People get mad at Ashley for hating on you for joining Cerberus. In case you didn't notice, SHE WAS RIGHT.

No, she wasn't.

If Shepard didn't join Cerberus in ME2, no more human colonies would be left. Anderson and the council even tell you it's up to you to stop the collectors.

[Hackulator]

Barquiel wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

People get mad at Ashley for hating on you for joining Cerberus. In case you didn't notice, SHE WAS RIGHT.

No, she wasn't.

If Shepard didn't join Cerberus in ME2, no more human colonies would be left. Anderson and the council even tell you it's up to you to stop the collectors.

Look while I love ME2 for its characters, the entire plot makes no sense. Regardless, she was right that Cerberus are bad guys, and considering that they literally RESURRECTED you, only a moron would be without suspicion regarding your relationship to them.

[iamweaver]

That's one of the things I liked about ME2 - the moral ambiguity of working with Cerberus while fighting the collectors, even in victory. It's too bad that the ME3 series didn't end with more moral ambiguity.

[Icesong]

Hackulator wrote...

People get mad at Ashley for hating on you for joining Cerberus. In case you didn't notice, SHE WAS RIGHT.

As I made clear to everyone who asked in ME2, I wasn't "with" Cerberus. So what was she right about? That it was better to stand by derelict than fight the Collectors?

[Ryzaki]

iamweaver wrote...
I already mentioned that because of her Spectre status, she could have used that to quiz Hackett about SHepherd, regardless of being on his staff or not.

But why would she?  Shepherd gave her some assurances that he wasn't really with Cerberus, and he didn't directly impact her current mission.  But then, right when Cerburus operatives are expected to step off of the elevator, Shephard appears.  He's got 3 guns, she's got 1, and you start talking about stopping Udina.  And Shepherd never bothered to check up on her after she got splattered - so she's probably a little miffed on some level, and wondering why tyou wouldn't bother visiting an old comrad in ICU.

As for Shepherd/Anderson - when we first met them, they had a CO/XO relationship. This relationship continued through ME1, in that Anderson was a Captain without a command, and Shepherd was the captain of a ship.  They aren't in the same chain of command, and like each other..  But when we first meet Admiral Anderson in ME3, the relationship starts out properly formal, as it should.  At that point, the Admiral, who is in control of the direction of the relationship with a subordinate officer, decided to make the relationship be a bit informal, though still clrarrly one of a superior officer to a junior.


And on a different note:  The whole Shepherd/Ash relationship is a Court Martial offense in both ME1 and 3.  I guess it adds some spice to it .

Because she clearly didn't believe him. I don't see how a possible Cerberus sleeper agent being right next to the heads of the Crucible project doesn't directly impact her but to each their own.

...which to me is stupid. Especially being miffed that he dared not visit her when the Reapers are invading. How dare he! And honestly if I was a Cerberus agent? I'd shot her ass on sight. It's 3 vs 1 for pete's sake! And all she has is a lousy Predator pistol! (I will never stop facepalming at my Shep replacing his Paladin for the Predator in cutscenes. Just...wat. Sadly the only scene I recall it staying the same is when he shoots Mordin oh so you use the Paladin then? Jerkass. T_T) 

And yet ME2 didn't have the relationship being formal (and honestly I found their relationship in ME3 OOC to a ridculous extent especially if Shep didn't do Arrival. Anderson was way too...angry, distant and snippy in the beginning of the game. It had the more IC vibe in the removed cutscene (which...renegade's response was hilarious) the normal version thus to me felt very...fake. Off. Especially jarring when Anderson seems to be more like his old self after the Earth resistance is all together. ) As for changing the relationship. Bah. To me that sounds ridculous and fake especially since BW's canon Shep takes the decision from accepting that or rejecting it away from me.

...My Shep'd rather sleep with Wreav than Ashley.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:41 .

[BatmanPWNS]

Well if someone shot me and killed me, I would say the same thing. Plus I am kinda happy she does that, I hate it when everyone kisses up to Shepard.

[iamweaver]

Ryzaki, Anderson was an ambassador in ME2 - at least, he was for me. And if he was Udina's assistant or something if you chose that path, then he was still a Captain, and outside Shepherd's chain of command.

[Ryzaki]

iamweaver wrote...

Ryzaki, Anderson was an ambassador in ME2 - at least, he was for me. And if he was Udina's assistant or something if you chose that path, then he was still a Captain, and outside Shepherd's chain of command.

He was a Council Member in mine. Regardless. Friendship still was there despite severely conflicting interests. Their friendship had nothing to do with rank.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:45 .

[CptData]

iamweaver wrote...

That's one of the things I liked about ME2 - the moral ambiguity of working with Cerberus while fighting the collectors, even in victory. It's too bad that the ME3 series didn't end with more moral ambiguity.

That kinda gets subverted since Shepard had no real choice to abandon Cerberus and become a full freelancer with a core crew. Instead of s/he played by the rules TIM set up. Shepard got manipulated in ME2 in a really nasty way, going that far s/he even tried to recruit Ashley or Kaidan, both well known as absolutely loyal officers of the Alliance, for the cause.

It's totally understandable why Shepard isn't trusted by Ash or Kaidan. However, Ashley's attitude always was more distrustful than Kaidan's, therefore it's more difficult to convince her in ME3. At least that's my image of Ash.


By the way, no answer on the CO/XO team? I said the CO and XO shouldn't be too similar so they have different PoVs on the same situation - and find a better solution. That's why Kaidan and Ashley should have been XOs in ME3. Bet they were planned to take the position as CO of Admiral Andersons mobile strategic HQ, the Normandy.

Modifié par CptData, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:47 .

[nos_astra]

Barquiel wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

People get mad at Ashley for hating on you for joining Cerberus. In case you didn't notice, SHE WAS RIGHT.

No, she wasn't.

If Shepard didn't join Cerberus in ME2, no more human colonies would be left. Anderson and the council even tell you it's up to you to stop the collectors.

The Collectors have one cruiser. Three if you count the ones that are referenced in passing when convenient.

It's so funny how three lonely, sad cruisers are such a terrible threat.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:48 .

[Ryzaki]

Liara makes more sense as an XO since she's the one returning character that's guaranteed to be alive.

Also...I like pretty much all the deleted scenes better than their ingame counterparts. Except the low EMS squadmate scenes (the EC version to me is preferred). I vastly love love the alternate Anderson and Shep discussion scene. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:49 .

[nos_astra]

Ryzaki wrote...
Liara makes more sense as an XO since she's the one returning character that's guaranteed to be alive.

Can you even be an XO without being an officer?

[CptData]

Ryzaki wrote...

Liara makes more sense as an XO since she's the one returning character that's guaranteed to be alive.

Technically, the VS is also guaranteed to be alive, except you're a really, really big stupi jellyfish and get him/her killed in the Coup

Besides that, Liara is no officer of the Alliance. She's an intel source, but nowhere even close to something that you could call XO. Actually, Garrus is the better choice here, especially since he has some military experience. On the other hand, he's simply too much like Shepard.

Also...I like pretty much all the deleted scenes better than their ingame counterparts. Except the low EMS squadmate scenes (the EC version to me is preferred). I vastly love love the alternate Anderson and Shep discussion scene. 

You mean the one where Anderson is sad he never found a family? Touching ... too bad, it's only available for forever-alone-Shepards.

[iamweaver]

Ryzaki wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

Ryzaki, Anderson was an ambassador in ME2 - at least, he was for me. And if he was Udina's assistant or something if you chose that path, then he was still a Captain, and outside Shepherd's chain of command.

He was a Council Member in mine. Regardless. Friendship still was there despite severely conflicting interests. Their friendship had nothing to do with rank.

But when they were both in uniform, and Anderson had admiral's insignia, it was up to him to set the tone of their working relationship.

But back to our discussion...

I am unsure why Ashley would really feel the need to pressure Admiral Hackett about Shepherd when she had some assurances from him before her injuries.  It wouldn't be until he stepped off of the elevator that she expected a Cerberus kill tem to step off of that she would suddenly have to deal with the question again.

On that note - it's incidents like this that help make war such a terrible thing.  Soldiers kill comrades and innocents all the time because of the need to make quick decisions with only the evidence immediately before them .