428 réponses à ce sujet

[krukow]

Also, Ashley only kills Wrex to save your sorry life. He was going to kill you.

[hoodaticus]

As Shepard said to Garrus:

"Times like these, you know who your real friends are. They’re not the ones running around looking for an escape route. They’re the ones who stand at your side through the worst of it, who never give up on you."

Ash... is not even a friend. Like you couldn't have used her help battling the Reapers on the one hand and in a cold war with Cerberus on the other. You were pressed on all sides and hurtling yourself through the very gates of death at Omega 4, and where was Ash in all this?

>crickets chirping<

My Shepard deserves better than Ashley Williams. It hurt me to figure that out - I was very emotionally invested in her. The selfless, heroic, self-sacrificing Savior of the Galaxy deserves better than Ash. He deserves someone who has always trusted him and will always be by his side.

Garrus loves you way more than Ash ever will.

Here's the cherry on top:

"Frankly, I'm more worried about you. Cerberus, Shepard? You remember those sick experiments they were doing?"
"That's why I'm glad you're here, Garrus. If I'm walking into hell, I want someone I trust at my side."
"You realize this plan has me walking into hell, too? Hmm. Just like old times."

Ashley Williams should have been this times a hundred.

Modifié par hoodaticus, 17 mai 2012 - 02:05 .

[BP93]

It's easy to tell who didn't even bother to pay any sort of attention to her character in ME1 just by reading this thread. Some serious ignorance.

[Computron2000]

kathic wrote...

People find it hard to understand situations for other points of view and that's why they dislike Ashley. She may have been wrong but that does not mean that her views were unjustified. For all she knew shep had been rebuilt differently. We do not find out until ME3 that TIM chose not to have a control implant.

Eh, no. I understand her viewpoint fine, However i find it hilarious that her career is on such a fast track but her ability to think fails completely.

You have someone who you actually saw Anderson (your boss) entrust with the fate of the galaxy, fight through Cerebrus and carry your unconscious body back, has you outnumbered 3 to 1 (ignoring the asari biotic and unarmed turian) and you decide that a hostile stance is the best. Said person does not want you to do anything but to stop the human counciler from opening the doors.

Now in this situation, what would be the logical response? Suspicion is fine, however full trust in the human counciler who you are warned is going to screw everyone there is stupid.

Best response, agree to stop human counciler with non-lethal means (soldier vs pencil pusher = not a problem). Next agree to take cover in different areas, such as having Shepard take the left of the lift door and ownself taking the right. Wait to see the ones who come through the lift.

Done.

[Malanek]

Lets go over these...

BP93 wrote...
"Ashley killed Wrex!" = you didn't have C/I score high enough. Conclusion: YOUR fault.
 

 
You're metagaming here. In story terms you were on a time critical mission to save the galaxy. Running off to search for a squadmates armour is actually pretty stupid and should never have been a priority. This certainly wasn't Shepards fault. However it wasn't Ashleys fault either, she realised that Wrex was a threat (which he was) and took action. This was actually a good thing for Ashley.

BP93 wrote...
"Ashley is a racist!" = you didn't bother talking to her in ME1. Conclusion: YOUR fault.
 

 
When people are talking about racism and Ashley they are talking about other alien species. And by definition of racism she is a mild racist (at least in ME1, don't recall seeing evidence after that). She doesn't trust them and doesn't treat them equally simply bexcause of their race.

BP93 wrote...
"Ashley told me to go to hell!" = you didn't visit her in the hospital and/or you chose to be a complete dick to her. Conclusion = YOUR fault.

 
So not visiting her in the hospital, when again you are on a time critical mission, somehow entitles her character to ignore the dozens of times you have saved the day and instead trust the manipulative and distinctly untrustworthy Udina, who already betrayed you and her in ME1?

[Razhathael]

BP93 wrote...

ITT: Irrational Ashley hate that spawns because of your own doings.

"Ashley killed Wrex!" = you didn't have C/I score high enough. Conclusion: YOUR fault.
"Ashley is a racist!" = you didn't bother talking to her in ME1. Conclusion: YOUR fault.
"Ashley told me to go to hell!" = you didn't visit her in the hospital and/or you chose to be a complete dick to her. Conclusion = YOUR fault.

Anyone see a pattern here?

No, Ashley didn't kill Wrex for me, and I talked to Ashley, she's still mildly racist (stuff like yelling in middle of the presidium of how she can't seperate the aliens from the animals). I don't like "mildly-racist". Heck, I don't like pro-humanity additude to begin with, which she has even if she doesn't hate aliens.

Ashley didn't tell me to go to hell either. The event in the original post of the thread really means never visiting her at the hospital. That doesn't mean she isn't really petty and unlikable to me and many other people.

[Generic Screen Name]

hoodaticus wrote...

Ash... is not even a friend. Like you couldn't have used her help battling the Reapers on the one hand and in a cold war with Cerberus on the other. You were pressed on all sides and hurtling yourself through the very gates of death at Omega 4, and where was Ash in all this?

Not going AWOL on a terrorist vessel.

[hoodaticus]

sw04ca wrote...

Razhathael wrote...
Like I said that Horizon part, reasonable I suppose, but then in ME3 she keeps going on and on about it. Shepard has blown up the collector base (in this example), went to Mars with her, killed tons of Cerberus soldiers (who tried to kill Shepard in the first place), saves her life, again. And then later she agrees Shepard is not with Cerberus...But no she didn't, because later it's the same crap again.

It's part the game's fault and part of the character's writer. For the game, Shepard always seemed really meek around Ashley. He never could give a speech about her either getting over it and focusing on, I don't know, the universe being destroyed? Or a longer talk about how trust goes both ways, and ranting about how I don't trust her. Or maybe even a paragon speech telling her how unreasonable she was being. But instead we got a few lines of "I understand" or "I don't want to talk about it" from Shepard.
As for the writer of the character, Ashley's trust issues should have ended shortly after Mars, instead it's her whole plot, and even people who've liked her character (not me) seem upset about that. I'm sure a LI or a friend that doesn't trust you for most of the game is a great thing to have...

I know the fact that I don't like her has something to do with what I'm saying here, but no, I honestly don't think her petty grudge against someone who saved her life twice and could have killed her at any time, during a reaper invasion is reasonable at all.

Some things don't jsut wash out.  Collaborating with the villains is one of them.

I know I had a hard time trusting my girlfriend after she joined the Hitler Youth.

Except if this were like Mass Effect, you would then yourself unwittingly join the Hitler Youth in an attempt to assassinate Presidents Obama, Hu Jintao, and Putin, and Prime Minister Cameron, including pulling a gun on your own commanding officer and your own crew - basically mutiny.

Modifié par hoodaticus, 17 mai 2012 - 02:16 .

[kathic]

Computron2000 wrote...

kathic wrote...

People find it hard to understand situations for other points of view and that's why they dislike Ashley. She may have been wrong but that does not mean that her views were unjustified. For all she knew shep had been rebuilt differently. We do not find out until ME3 that TIM chose not to have a control implant.

Eh, no. I understand her viewpoint fine, However i find it hilarious that her career is on such a fast track but her ability to think fails completely.

You have someone who you actually saw Anderson (your boss) entrust with the fate of the galaxy, fight through Cerebrus and carry your unconscious body back, has you outnumbered 3 to 1 (ignoring the asari biotic and unarmed turian) and you decide that a hostile stance is the best. Said person does not want you to do anything but to stop the human counciler from opening the doors.

Now in this situation, what would be the logical response? Suspicion is fine, however full trust in the human counciler who you are warned is going to screw everyone there is stupid.

Best response, agree to stop human counciler with non-lethal means (soldier vs pencil pusher = not a problem). Next agree to take cover in different areas, such as having Shepard take the left of the lift door and ownself taking the right. Wait to see the ones who come through the lift.

Done.

It is easy to convince her to side with you. The fact that you do not implies that you have not earned her trust. Working with Cerberus to stop the collectors does not count for much. They are still the enemy in ME3. if Shep had made a decent effort he could have convinced her.

[BP93]

Malanek999 wrote...

Lets go over these...

BP93 wrote...
"Ashley killed Wrex!" = you didn't have C/I score high enough. Conclusion: YOUR fault.
 

 
You're metagaming here. In story terms you were on a time critical mission to save the galaxy. Running off to search for a squadmates armour is actually pretty stupid and should never have been a priority. This certainly wasn't Shepards fault. However it wasn't Ashleys fault either, she realised that Wrex was a threat (which he was) and took action. This was actually a good thing for Ashley.

BP93 wrote...
"Ashley is a racist!" = you didn't bother talking to her in ME1. Conclusion: YOUR fault.
 

 
When people are talking about racism and Ashley they are talking about other alien species. And by definition of racism she is a mild racist (at least in ME1, don't recall seeing evidence after that). She doesn't trust them and doesn't treat them equally simply bexcause of their race.

BP93 wrote...
"Ashley told me to go to hell!" = you didn't visit her in the hospital and/or you chose to be a complete dick to her. Conclusion = YOUR fault.

 
So not visiting her in the hospital, when again you are on a time critical mission, somehow entitles her character to ignore the dozens of times you have saved the day and instead trust the manipulative and distinctly untrustworthy Udina, who already betrayed you and her in ME1?

Too bad nothing was actually "time critical" in the game (ME3) aside from maybe two side missions. You could dink around all you wanted and visit the Citadel an unlimited amount of times so your argument isn't very strong.

You just chose not to pay any attention to her.

Modifié par BP93, 17 mai 2012 - 02:16 .

[Razhathael]

BP93 wrote...

It's easy to tell who didn't even bother to pay any sort of attention to her character in ME1 just by reading this thread. Some serious ignorance.

Point some out will you, I get the feeling you're just saying that because you dislike people who hate Ashley. I may argue of Ashley being petty, but I don't hate the people liking her. I'm arguing about her being unreasonable and untrusting, at all times. Unless you refer to those going "I hate ashley, wish I killed her in ME" in which case, those aren't really arguing anything.

[hoodaticus]

You're meta-metagaming now.

BP93 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
You're
metagaming here. In story terms you were on a time critical mission to
save the galaxy.

>snip<

So
not visiting her in the hospital, when again you are on a time critical
mission, somehow entitles her character to ignore the dozens of times
you have saved the day and instead trust the manipulative and distinctly
untrustworthy Udina, who already betrayed you and her in ME1?

Too
bad nothing was actually "time critical" in the game (ME3) aside from
maybe two side missions. You could dink around all you wanted and visit
the Citadel an unlimited amount of times so your argument isn't very
strong.

Modifié par hoodaticus, 17 mai 2012 - 02:20 .

[Malanek]

BP93 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Lets go over these...

BP93 wrote...
"Ashley killed Wrex!" = you didn't have C/I score high enough. Conclusion: YOUR fault.
 

 
You're metagaming here. In story terms you were on a time critical mission to save the galaxy. Running off to search for a squadmates armour is actually pretty stupid and should never have been a priority. This certainly wasn't Shepards fault. However it wasn't Ashleys fault either, she realised that Wrex was a threat (which he was) and took action. This was actually a good thing for Ashley.

BP93 wrote...
"Ashley is a racist!" = you didn't bother talking to her in ME1. Conclusion: YOUR fault.
 

 
When people are talking about racism and Ashley they are talking about other alien species. And by definition of racism she is a mild racist (at least in ME1, don't recall seeing evidence after that). She doesn't trust them and doesn't treat them equally simply bexcause of their race.

BP93 wrote...
"Ashley told me to go to hell!" = you didn't visit her in the hospital and/or you chose to be a complete dick to her. Conclusion = YOUR fault.

 
So not visiting her in the hospital, when again you are on a time critical mission, somehow entitles her character to ignore the dozens of times you have saved the day and instead trust the manipulative and distinctly untrustworthy Udina, who already betrayed you and her in ME1?

Too bad nothing was actually "time critical" in the game (ME3) aside from maybe two side missions. You could dink around all you wanted and visit the Citadel an unlimited amount of times so your argument isn't very strong.

You just chose not to pay any attention to her.

I am talking about a story and roleplaying point of view, not a gameplay point of view. Every moment more people on Earth and around the galaxy are dying while the reapers increase the size of their ground forces. I don't think you should bring gameplay mechanics (especially when they are flawed) into character discussions.

Modifié par Malanek999, 17 mai 2012 - 02:21 .

[BP93]

Razhathael wrote...

BP93 wrote...

It's easy to tell who didn't even bother to pay any sort of attention to her character in ME1 just by reading this thread. Some serious ignorance.

Point some out will you, I get the feeling you're just saying that because you dislike people who hate Ashley. I may argue of Ashley being petty, but I don't hate the people liking her. I'm arguing about her being unreasonable and untrusting, at all times. Unless you refer to those going "I hate ashley, wish I killed her in ME" in which case, those aren't really arguing anything.

People who dislike certain characters are well within their right to do so. I don't particularly care for a few them over the course of three games but I don't discredit them either. It's annoying to read the ignorant comments everywhere about her character even if the thread is supposed to be a positive one, there is always people calling her a alien hater, she killed Wrex so I left her on Virmire...blah blah blah. I realize her character isn't a universally loved one like Garrus so I understand there's going to be more "haters" but it doesn't change the fact.

If you actually take the time and pay attention to her character, your opinion might change.

[hoodaticus]

Malanek999 wrote...
I am talking about a story and roleplaying point of view, not a gameplay point of view. I don't think you should bring gameplay mechanics (especially when they are flawed) into character discussions.

If he doesn't get it by now, there's no helping him.  And since he doesn't agree with the rest of us regarding the basic framework of the discussion, there are only two ways this can end: quietly, or loudly.

[hoodaticus]

Generic Screen Name wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

Ash... is not even a friend. Like you couldn't have used her help battling the Reapers on the one hand and in a cold war with Cerberus on the other. You were pressed on all sides and hurtling yourself through the very gates of death at Omega 4, and where was Ash in all this?

Not going AWOL on a terrorist vessel.

Good point, but she didn't need to be a big floppy donkey dick about it.

But if Ashley had joined me, she wouldn't be the first member of a military at war with Cerberus to drop everything to join up because she cared so much for me.

She didn't have to go AWOL to join up.  She didn't even have to join up.  But I could have used her trust and moral support as I'm surrounded by demons and diving headfirst into hell.

Modifié par hoodaticus, 17 mai 2012 - 02:29 .

[Computron2000]

kathic wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

kathic wrote...

People find it hard to understand situations for other points of view and that's why they dislike Ashley. She may have been wrong but that does not mean that her views were unjustified. For all she knew shep had been rebuilt differently. We do not find out until ME3 that TIM chose not to have a control implant.

Eh, no. I understand her viewpoint fine, However i find it hilarious that her career is on such a fast track but her ability to think fails completely.

You have someone who you actually saw Anderson (your boss) entrust with the fate of the galaxy, fight through Cerebrus and carry your unconscious body back, has you outnumbered 3 to 1 (ignoring the asari biotic and unarmed turian) and you decide that a hostile stance is the best. Said person does not want you to do anything but to stop the human counciler from opening the doors.

Now in this situation, what would be the logical response? Suspicion is fine, however full trust in the human counciler who you are warned is going to screw everyone there is stupid.

Best response, agree to stop human counciler with non-lethal means (soldier vs pencil pusher = not a problem). Next agree to take cover in different areas, such as having Shepard take the left of the lift door and ownself taking the right. Wait to see the ones who come through the lift.

Done.

It is easy to convince her to side with you. The fact that you do not implies that you have not earned her trust. Working with Cerberus to stop the collectors does not count for much. They are still the enemy in ME3. if Shep had made a decent effort he could have convinced her.

A few things. First i am not the OP and never got the go to hell from her but i never liked her since ME1 and i like refusing her permission to get on the ship. Second, being on a mission to evac the councilers means you should be using your brains not your heart. Ashley never needed to trust Shepard, she just needed to use her brain and weigh the costs and effects (stop Udina vs don't stop Udina). She failed pretty badly.

The worst is when your squad is comprised of Tali or Garrus since apparently getting to know them from ME1 means nothing to Ashley and the entire lot are mind controlled zombies. If it was Liara, it was even worse since she was part of the squad that rescued Ashley's sorry ass from Mars. Apparently them zombies didn't execute her (easily done throwing her unconscious body down the ravine) and blame it on being KIA because they wanted her to trick her. Does that sound in anyway plausible?

[FellishBeast]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

That's why I saved Kaidan. Bros before hoes man.

Kaidan? A bro? lmfao

[Malanek]

FellishBeast wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

That's why I saved Kaidan. Bros before hoes man.

Kaidan? A bro? lmfao

The way the game is structured Kaidan can suffer from the same sort of narrow mindedness. It's the problem with making mirrored characters.

[SuperVulcan]

hoodaticus wrote...

Generic Screen Name wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

Ash... is not even a friend. Like you couldn't have used her help battling the Reapers on the one hand and in a cold war with Cerberus on the other. You were pressed on all sides and hurtling yourself through the very gates of death at Omega 4, and where was Ash in all this?

Not going AWOL on a terrorist vessel.

Good point, but she didn't need to be a big floppy donkey dick about it.

But then again she's like that toward almost everything else. Which is why I like her myself. She always straight up with Shepard.

[BP93]

hoodaticus wrote...

Generic Screen Name wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

Ash... is not even a friend. Like you couldn't have used her help battling the Reapers on the one hand and in a cold war with Cerberus on the other. You were pressed on all sides and hurtling yourself through the very gates of death at Omega 4, and where was Ash in all this?

Not going AWOL on a terrorist vessel.

Good point, but she didn't need to be a big floppy donkey dick about it.

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. As if Kaidan were any better?

Did you read the email on the private terminal afterwards?

Bueller?

[Malanek]

hoodaticus wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
I am talking about a story and roleplaying point of view, not a gameplay point of view. I don't think you should bring gameplay mechanics (especially when they are flawed) into character discussions.

If he doesn't get it by now, there's no helping him.  And since he doesn't agree with the rest of us regarding the basic framework of the discussion, there are only two ways this can end: quietly, or loudly.

I live in hope. Metagame is a word than can be misunderstood so I'll try (once) to explain it more simply.

[kathic]

Computron2000 wrote...

A few things. First i am not the OP and never got the go to hell from her but i never liked her since ME1 and i like refusing her permission to get on the ship. Second, being on a mission to evac the councilers means you should be using your brains not your heart. Ashley never needed to trust Shepard, she just needed to use her brain and weigh the costs and effects (stop Udina vs don't stop Udina). She failed pretty badly.

The worst is when your squad is comprised of Tali or Garrus since apparently getting to know them from ME1 means nothing to Ashley and the entire lot are mind controlled zombies. If it was Liara, it was even worse since she was part of the squad that rescued Ashley's sorry ass from Mars. Apparently them zombies didn't execute her (easily done throwing her unconscious body down the ravine) and blame it on being KIA because they wanted her to trick her. Does that sound in anyway plausible?

As far as the squad members go I will attribute that to not having the resources to create a game that would be that inculsive. What if the situation had been reverse? Would you as Shepard stand down and allow a possible Cerberus Ashley to kill the council?

[D24O]

She was pretty quick to turn her gun on Udina for my Shepard. Just saying.

[BP93]

D24O wrote...

She was pretty quick to turn her gun on Udina for my Shepard. Just saying.

Because you actually took the time to visit her and when you did, you weren't a complete dick. Funny how that works.

You don't have to go full paragon either. 50/50 still works.