425 réponses à ce sujet

[M Hedonist]

Oransel wrote...

Hmm... You see, there is a problem with this one. There will always be those who are hating their identity. Those who believe that everything alien is better than human. Just look at our times. How many young western people are attracted by japanese pseudo-culture like sushi, anime and so on, while forgetting about their own cultures? Isn't that horrible? Look at those who are changing their genders, they are obviously hating themselves. Is that the kind of people we want to represent the Humanity? 

You really shouldn't make your racism too obvious. Where's the fun in pointing out that you're a closet racist if you start making it too obvious?

Modifié par Sauruz, 17 mai 2012 - 10:12 .

[Someone With Mass]

MisterJB wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
More like a burning age. Earth was a dump even before the Reapers invaded.

Someone didn't read the Codex in ME3.

"Earth, the homeworld and capital of humanity, was enjoying a new golden age before the Reapers attacked. Disease, pollution, and other social ills were on the decline thanks to technological advances and a wealth of resources from the colonies. Earth was an inspiration even to alien cultures, resulting in influence out of proportion with humanity's brief time on the galactic stage."

Here's another part of that same Codex entry:

Earth is still divided among nation-states, though all are affiliated beneath the overarching banner of the Systems Alliance. While every human enjoys longer and better life then ever, the gap between rich and poor widens daily. Advanced nations have eliminated most genetic disease and pollution. Less fortunate regions have not progressed beyond 20th century technology, and are often smog-choked, overpopulated slums.

Then again, most people can only see what they want to see.

[Oransel]

Pottumuusi wrote...

So you would rather they be miserable than happy?

Their happiness can be achieved by other, more conventional, more human ways.

Pottumuusi wrote...

Ever heard of 'live and let live'? You know, don't f*** with me and I wont f*** with you? I can't comprehend why that isn't enough for some people.

It depends on situation. In this case, we can't allow children to embrace such destructive ideas. We need to protect the morality of Humanity for our race to survive.

[Pottumuusi]

Gen Petitt wrote...

Humanity itself has only one instinct. War. When an animal kills it has a reason when we kill it is out of our own greed look at the Crusades, WWII, The wars over colonial rights in America such as the French and Indian war, and The hundred years wars

What's interesting is that this also arises in other animals capable of meta-cognition. Other than humans, the only documented animals know to kill each other for seemingly no reason are dolphins.

On the other hand, when we are in danger, the most likely thing to come to our aid is another human. Animals wont help us. Except for dolphins and chimps.

Sentience is sort of a double edged sword.

[huntsman2310]

Oransel wrote...

Even Harbinger and Reapers in general believe Humanity is superior to anyone else and they are possibly the oldest beings in the Galaxy and have seen thousands of races.

Quotes of Harbinger, Mass Effect 2:

"Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating."

"Drell; useless, insufficient numbers."

"Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled."

"Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness."

"Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure."

"Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability."

"Geth; an annoyance, limited utility."

"Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential."

"Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated."

"Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential."

"Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted."

"Turian; you are considered...too primitive."

Although that's probably because Humans have just arrived on the galactic scene, and they can live on most worlds, are ORGANIC (the important part).

Most of the other races in mass effect have either suffered a cataclysm in the past which debilitated them, or have a stagnant culture, or could have been better then humans if other races hadn't uplifted them at the wrong stage.

Essentialyl, we're the most pure (as in, no genetic manipulation, a constantly shifting culture, and a wide variation in our species) race out there.

[Someone With Mass]

Oransel wrote...

Hmm... You see, there is a problem with this one. There will always be those who are hating their identity. Those who believe that everything alien is better than human. Just look at our times. How many young western people are attracted by japanese pseudo-culture like sushi, anime and so on, while forgetting about their own cultures? Isn't that horrible? Look at those who are changing their genders, they are obviously hating themselves. Is that the kind of people we want to represent the Humanity? 

People like me are vocal only because we are counterpart to those traitors. There is nothing wrong with cooperation with aliens. But our own interests, our identity and culture should come first. By any means.

You know, there's probably a very good reason for some of them to want to forget their own culture and wanting to be a part of a society and culture that benefits them better than their own did.

Hell, if I had the chance to live in the Mass Effect universe without the Reapers, I would have taken it without a second thought.

[M Hedonist]

You really just shouldn't put humans on a scale with fictional species. Especially in fiction, history is often decided by single individuals. So, Shepard was a human and he saved the galaxy a few times, but he could've been from any other species and the story wouldn't change that much. Every species has the potential to bring forth exceptional individuals.

[MisterJB]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Here's another part of that same Codex entry:

Earth is still divided among nation-states, though all are affiliated beneath the overarching banner of the Systems Alliance. While every human enjoys longer and better life then ever, the gap between rich and poor widens daily. Advanced nations have eliminated most genetic disease and pollution. Less fortunate regions have not progressed beyond 20th century technology, and are often smog-choked, overpopulated slums.

Then again, most people can only see what they want to see.

And what is wrong doesn't nullify what is right. It's not a Utopia but Earth was still going through a Golden Age, even there you can read that the quality of life increased.
And this after only 30 years. Given time, we could eliminate all social ills around the globe.

[Pottumuusi]

Sauruz wrote...

Oransel wrote...

Hmm... You see, there is a problem with this one. There will always be those who are hating their identity. Those who believe that everything alien is better than human. Just look at our times. How many young western people are attracted by japanese pseudo-culture like sushi, anime and so on, while forgetting about their own cultures? Isn't that horrible? Look at those who are changing their genders, they are obviously hating themselves. Is that the kind of people we want to represent the Humanity? 

You really shouldn't make your racism too obvious. Where's the fun in pointing out that you're a closet racist if you start making it too obvious?

What's more, now that he is crossing the line of fiction and real world bigotry, he's actually violating the site rules.

[sAxMoNkI]

Oransel wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Purely because I don't agree with you does not mean I hate humanity. I hate bigoted narrow minded fools like you who show the worst side of our race. If alien contact occured then yes amalgamation into their society whilst completely forgetting our culture would be a tragedy. It would also never happen. The sharing of ideas between groups and opening yourself to new viewpoints is ALWAYS how the human race has advanced. 

I am damn proud of humanity in general, but I will NOT let pride turn into arrogance. It seems you have.

Hmm... You see, there is a problem with this one. There will always be those who are hating their identity. Those who believe that everything alien is better than human. Just look at our times. How many young western people are attracted by japanese pseudo-culture like sushi, anime and so on, while forgetting about their own cultures? Isn't that horrible? Look at those who are changing their genders, they are obviously hating themselves. Is that the kind of people we want to represent the Humanity? 

People like me are vocal only because we are counterpart to those traitors. There is nothing wrong with cooperation with aliens. But our own interests, our identity and culture should come first. By any means.

Yep and they, like you, represent a small fraction of the overall population. People who dislike their cultural identity to the extreme and people like you who believe that cultures must remain isolated from one another.

I will assume you have never heard of a Gaussian distribution. Here read this link;
Normal distribution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now that you are up to speed I will explain that bell curve shape.

People who dislike their own culture/gender and adopt another lie on the very far left of that bell curve. Where as you and you patently ridculous and bigoted views lie on the extreme far right of thise curve. That big huge bulge in between those two points? Well that's the majority of the population. I think you'll find they hate you and your supremacist nonsense .

Modifié par sAxMoNkI, 17 mai 2012 - 10:20 .

[Someone With Mass]

Oransel wrote...

Their happiness can be achieved by other, more conventional, more human ways.

Who is the one to decide that one but themselves? 

You can't force happiness on people.

[Pottumuusi]

Oransel wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

So you would rather they be miserable than happy?

Their happiness can be achieved by other, more conventional, more human ways.

Pottumuusi wrote...

Ever heard of 'live and let live'? You know, don't f*** with me and I wont f*** with you? I can't comprehend why that isn't enough for some people.

It depends on situation. In this case, we can't allow children to embrace such destructive ideas. We need to protect the morality of Humanity for our race to survive.

Simply put; nope.

[Someone With Mass]

MisterJB wrote...
Given time, we could eliminate all social ills around the globe.

Right...I guess we didn't want it badly enough until that particular moment.

[MakeMineMako]

Oransel wrote...

I really can't understand how you can be so hateful of yourselves? Do you hate yourself for being human? Do you dream about becoming cyborg or alien? I can't understand that. How do you cope with watching into the mirror? Looking at your human face?

The fact that you avoid my last post tells me something fishy...or should I say trollish.....is going on here.


First off, Cerberus was never about Human supremacy. It was about the preservation and advancement of Humanity. Unfortunately, that usually meant by any means necessary (i.e. morally and ethically questionable operations).


Regarding the Illusive Man's Manifesto:

"Immediately following the First Contact War, an anonymous extranet manifesto warned that an alien attempt at human genocide was inevitable. The manifesto called for an army - a Cerberus to guard against invasion through the Charon relay."



Shepard mentioned that Cerberus was supposed to Humanity's "sword", as opposed to a "dagger in the back". Looking out for Humanity's interests from the shadows. Even the very name "Cerberus" invokes imagery of A GUARDIAN, not a force for extermination. Here is a picture of Cerberus from Greek mythology guarding the gates of the Underworld:




Yes, the Illusive Man put Humanity's interests and advancement ahead of the other races. After all, he didn't play by the Alliance's or the Council's rules. But nowhere is it indicated (at least prior to Mass Effect 3, when they became a generic, evil "mook army" and stereotypical "Space N@zis") that aliens were inferior racially or culturally. Just that Humanity comes first and should assert it's power and influence in the galaxy.

I'm sure there are more extremists in Cerberus's ranks besides Kai Leng. But The Illusive Man has shown that he will use talent where ever he can find it. And space racists have as many uses to Cerberus as pro-alien types like Shepard. The ends justify the means in regards to how Cerberus operates. That, however, doesn't mean The Illusive Man, or Cerberus in general, is outright racist or supremacist when taken as a whole.

Cerberus was well-written in ME2. Morally ambigous in the extreme, doing both harm and good in the galaxy. I hate the way they were cheapened and dumbed down in Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par MakeMineMako, 17 mai 2012 - 10:22 .

[M Hedonist]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Oransel wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Purely because I don't agree with you does not mean I hate humanity. I hate bigoted narrow minded fools like you who show the worst side of our race. If alien contact occured then yes amalgamation into their society whilst completely forgetting our culture would be a tragedy. It would also never happen. The sharing of ideas between groups and opening yourself to new viewpoints is ALWAYS how the human race has advanced. 

I am damn proud of humanity in general, but I will NOT let pride turn into arrogance. It seems you have.

Hmm... You see, there is a problem with this one. There will always be those who are hating their identity. Those who believe that everything alien is better than human. Just look at our times. How many young western people are attracted by japanese pseudo-culture like sushi, anime and so on, while forgetting about their own cultures? Isn't that horrible? Look at those who are changing their genders, they are obviously hating themselves. Is that the kind of people we want to represent the Humanity? 

People like me are vocal only because we are counterpart to those traitors. There is nothing wrong with cooperation with aliens. But our own interests, our identity and culture should come first. By any means.

Yep and they, like you, represent a small fraction of the overall population. People who dislike their cultural identity to the extreme and people like you who believe that cultures must remain isolated from one another.

I will assume you have never heard of a Gaussian distribution. Here read this link;
Normal distribution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaNow that you are up to speed I will explain that bell curve shape.

People who dislike their own culture/gender and adopt another lie on the very far left of that bell curve. Where as you and you patently ridculous and bigoted views lie on the extreme far right of thise curve. That big huge bulge in between those two points? Well that's the majority of the population. I think you'll find they hate you .

For some reason I really haven't thought of putting it into graphical terms for OP before. Maybe he'll now understand that not everyone who agrees with his own extreme position must be representing the other extreme.
Thank you.

Modifié par Sauruz, 17 mai 2012 - 10:24 .

[Oransel]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

People who dislike their own culture/gender and adopt another lie on the very far left of that bell curve. Where as you and you patently ridculous and bigoted views lie on the extreme far right of thise curve. That big huge bulge in between those two points? Well that's the majority of the population. I think you'll find they hate you and your supremacist nonsense .

Ah, moderate card. Yep, most people are moderate. But you see, there are moderate left and moderate right. My goal as a pro-human "extremist" is to make sure there would be more moderate pro-humans than other way around. Not everyone is ready to fully understand my truth.

[sAxMoNkI]

Someone With Mass wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Given time, we could eliminate all social ills around the globe.

Right...I guess we didn't want it badly enough until that particular moment.

Well it is more the opportunities that mass effect technology provided. I.e resources now didn't have to be fought over as there are now a plentiful supply to be found in the solar system and beyond, plus the obvious technical advance in construction engineering etc that mass effect fields provide would lower costs. All these things generally improve living conditions and free up money and resources for curing disease, fixing the planet etc.

Oransel wrote...

Ah, moderate card. Yep, most people are
moderate. But you see, there are moderate left and moderate right. My
goal as a pro-human "extremist" is to make sure there would be more
moderate pro-humans than other way around. Not everyone is ready to
fully understand my truth.

There's moderate. There's extreme. And then there is the infintessimaly small spec on the absolute right that represents you. Frankly it is most likely to be JUST you, I have never had the distinct displeasure of reading views as abhorrent as yours. They are unique in their scale and monstrosity.

Also all this talk of 'your truth' what are you huh? Trying to big yourself up as a prophet now? You are a xenophobic, closet racist, meglomaniac with delusions of importance and supremacy. I would say I hope you never get any where near a position of power, but hope has nothing to do with it. The way you talk I'll most likely walk past you holding a crude cardboard sign on a street corner.

Modifié par sAxMoNkI, 17 mai 2012 - 10:31 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Oransel wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

People who dislike their own culture/gender and adopt another lie on the very far left of that bell curve. Where as you and you patently ridculous and bigoted views lie on the extreme far right of thise curve. That big huge bulge in between those two points? Well that's the majority of the population. I think you'll find they hate you and your supremacist nonsense .

Ah, moderate card. Yep, most people are moderate. But you see, there are moderate left and moderate right. My goal as a pro-human "extremist" is to make sure there would be more moderate pro-humans than other way around. Not everyone is ready to fully understand my truth.

Maybe when people don't understand your truth you should question whether it is truth. 

Because it's not. 

[Gen Petitt]

Someone With Mass wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Given time, we could eliminate all social ills around the globe.

Right...I guess we didn't want it badly enough until that particular moment.

Inpossible can not happen eliminate all social ills can not happen thatbwould involve a lot of mind control and war so it can not happen without larger crimes making an Antichrist 

[RavenEyry]

I also think humans aren't special in Mass Effect. The reason they seem to be at the moment is because they are still in the middle of the technological boom caused by the discovery of mass effect when the other races have long since exhausted their rapid development. The turians probably appeared just as creative and superior in their first hundred years on the galactic stage for example.

[Gen Petitt]

Pottumuusi wrote...

Gen Petitt wrote...
Humanity itself has only one instinct. War. When an animal kills it has a reason when we kill it is out of our own greed look at the Crusades, WWII, The wars over colonial rights in America such as the French and Indian war, and The hundred years wars

What's interesting is that this also arises in other animals capable of meta-cognition. Other than humans, the only documented animals know to kill each other for seemingly no reason are dolphins.
On the other hand, when we are in danger, the most likely thing to come to our aid is another human. Animals wont help us. Except for dolphins and chimps.

Sentience is sort of a double edged sword.

They have reason food basic survival what we kill for is gold, oil, and items of this sort feeding our greed and besides I never said other animals were greater than us I was saying we are not greater than them we are on the same levels as equals 

Modifié par Gen Petitt, 17 mai 2012 - 10:35 .

[MisterJB]

sAxMoNkI wrote...
Well it is more the opportunities that mass effect technology provided. I.e resources now didn't have to be fought over as there are now a plentiful supply to be found in the solar system and beyond, plus the obvious technical advance in construction engineering etc that mass effect fields provide would lower costs. All these things generally improve living conditions and free up money and resources for curing disease, fixing the planet etc.

I really wish we could have spent more time on Earth before the Reapers arrived. Explore the environment a little bit, see human achitecture, talk with a few people, maybe give us a reason we should care that particular city is being destroyed.

[Oransel]

MakeMineMako wrote...

Oransel wrote...

I really can't understand how you can be so hateful of yourselves? Do you hate yourself for being human? Do you dream about becoming cyborg or alien? I can't understand that. How do you cope with watching into the mirror? Looking at your human face?

The fact that you avoid my last post tells me something fishy...or should I say trollish.....is going on here.


First off, Cerberus was never about Human supremacy. It was about the preservation and advancement of Humanity. Unfortunately, that usually meant by any means necessary (i.e. morally and ethically questionable operations).


Regarding the Illusive Man's Manifesto:

"Immediately following the First Contact War, an anonymous extranet manifesto warned that an alien attempt at human genocide was inevitable. The manifesto called for an army - a Cerberus to guard against invasion through the Charon relay."



Shepard mentioned that Cerberus was supposed to Humanity's "sword", as opposed to a "dagger in the back". Looking out for Humanity's interests from the shadows. Even the very name "Cerberus" invokes imagery of A GUARDIAN, not a force for extermination. Here is a picture of Cerberus from Greek mythology guarding the gates of the Underworld:

Yes, the Illusive Man put Humanity's interests and advancement ahead of the other races. After all, he didn't play by the Alliance's or the Council's rules. But nowhere is it indicated (at least prior to Mass Effect 3, when they became a generic, evil "mook army" and stereotypical "Space N@zis") that aliens were inferior racially or culturally. Just that Humanity comes first and should assert it's power and influence in the galaxy.

I'm sure there are more extremists in Cerberus's ranks besides Kai Leng. But The Illusive Man has shown that he will use talent where ever he can find it. And space racists have as many uses to Cerberus as pro-alien types like Shepard. The ends justify the means in regards to how Cerberus operates. That, however, doesn't mean The Illusive Man, or Cerberus in general, is outright racist or supremacist when taken as a whole.

Cerberus was well-written in ME2. Morally ambigous in the extreme, doing both harm and good in the galaxy. I hate the way they were cheapened and dumbed down in Mass Effect 3.

I am not ignoring you, I just can't answer everyone at once. I agree with what you said. I am more of telling my own thoughts than I am trying to fit with Cerberus or TIM.

Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to achieve great goal. For example, I have not let David Archer into the Grissom Academy. He would be of a much better use for Humanity if he would continue taking part in VI improvement program. Also, I killed Mordin, because genophage should have stayed. Or keeping Collector's base. Not a "good" actions by general definition, but neccessary. Someone has to get the job done.

Modifié par Oransel, 17 mai 2012 - 10:38 .

[Pottumuusi]

Oransel wrote...

Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to achieve great goal. For example, I have not let David Archer into the Grissom Academy. He would be of a much better use for Humanity if he would continue taking part in VI improvement program. Also, I killed Mordin, because genophage should have stayed. Or keeping Collector's base. Not a "good" actions by general definition, but neccessary. Someone has to get the job done.

Maybe the goal isn't worth reaching, if your hands get too dirty.

[sAxMoNkI]

Pottumuusi wrote...

Oransel wrote...

Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to achieve great goal. For example, I have not let David Archer into the Grissom Academy. He would be of a much better use for Humanity if he would continue taking part in VI improvement program. Also, I killed Mordin, because genophage should have stayed. Or keeping Collector's base. Not a "good" actions by general definition, but neccessary. Someone has to get the job done.

Maybe the goal isn't worth reaching, if your hands get too dirty.

Tell you what Pottumuusi, from now on just assume I'm +1'ing you. It'll save time.