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Has Bioware ever said, "We know you hate us right now, but please, please trust us?"


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#126
spiriticon

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Lyrebon wrote...

That's not the point of the concerns at all. That's just an alternative hypothesis to a single theory that came about as a solution to retconning the end entirely.

The problem with the end is that Starbrat appears from nowhere, was never alluded to, and practically demolishes everything you ever believed about the story in those few minutes you're forced to listen to his crap.

The Reapers aren't the malevolent beings you were made to believe, but simply puppets.

We know we can't trust what he says, so why does Shepard implicitly acquiesce to these methods without questioning them or finding another solution him/herself?

It completely tears away the soul of our unique Shepards and we lose any identity with them at that point.



The Catalyst was alluded to for the whole of the game in ME3. It's not something that appeared out of nowhere. Everyone just expected it to be, well, an object rather than a confusing AI.

Again, If you know that you can't trust what it says, then Shepard would choose Destroy. Every time, like my Shepard did. The mass relays might not go nova, and the geth might live. You didn't trust him on Control anyway, why start trusting him when he says what he says about Destroy?

Modifié par spiriticon, 16 mai 2012 - 10:35 .


#127
KotorEffect3

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Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

So in other words you are gossiping about me and slandering me.


Want a tissue?



I could ask you that with the way you have been crying about me.

#128
wantedman dan

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KotorEffect3 wrote...

Only in a retroactive sense (from your point of view, not saying I agree with it) but before the ending don't tell me you didn't enjoy it for at least a good 30 hours (give or take)


Whether or not I enjoyed the journey to the endpoint is irrelevant. Whether or not it was foundationally damaged or destroyed by the endpoint is.

#129
Lyrebon

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KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

So in other words you are gossiping about me and slandering me.


Want a tissue?



I could ask you that with the way you have been crying about me.


While we're at it I have a friend in construction, he could widen the door frames around your house to fit your ego through.

#130
KotorEffect3

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wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Only in a retroactive sense (from your point of view, not saying I agree with it) but before the ending don't tell me you didn't enjoy it for at least a good 30 hours (give or take)


Whether or not I enjoyed the journey to the endpoint is irrelevant. Whether or not it was foundationally damaged or destroyed by the endpoint is.



Not really it's not like the ending somehow retroactively went back in time and made you enjoy the rest of the game and series less while you were playing it.  Now if you want to argue that going forward you can't play it because of the ending than that is another matter.

#131
KotorEffect3

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Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

So in other words you are gossiping about me and slandering me.


Want a tissue?



I could ask you that with the way you have been crying about me.


While we're at it I have a friend in construction, he could widen the door frames around your house to fit your ego through.


And this is ME 3 related how?  Look I know you are obsessed about me because well I am awesome but this thread isn't about me so stop trolling and stay on topic.

#132
GreenDragon37

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On the subject of auto-dialogue: From the very beginning of Mass Effect 3, I felt that my Shepard wasn't mine anymore. If BioWare says that they "ran out of money" I say bull****. You had enough money to shoot ME3 copies into space, spent money on Jessica Chobot and Kinect support (which I feel is more of a hindrance, actually) and not work on the dialogue wheel that people know and love from the previous games? Well, now I know where BioWare's priorities lie.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 16 mai 2012 - 10:42 .


#133
Lyrebon

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spiriticon wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

That's not the point of the concerns at all. That's just an alternative hypothesis to a single theory that came about as a solution to retconning the end entirely.

The problem with the end is that Starbrat appears from nowhere, was never alluded to, and practically demolishes everything you ever believed about the story in those few minutes you're forced to listen to his crap.

The Reapers aren't the malevolent beings you were made to believe, but simply puppets.

We know we can't trust what he says, so why does Shepard implicitly acquiesce to these methods without questioning them or finding another solution him/herself?

It completely tears away the soul of our unique Shepards and we lose any identity with them at that point.



The Catalyst was alluded to for the whole of the game in ME3. It's not something that appeared out of nowhere. Everyone just expected it to be, well, an object rather than a confusing AI.

Again, If you know that you can't trust what it says, then Shepard would choose Destroy. Every time, like my Shepard did. The mass relays might not go nova, and the geth might live. You didn't trust him on Control anyway, why start trusting him when he says what he says about Destroy?


Exactly the point; where's the option to question that? Where's the option to say "bulls***, there must be another way"? Everything we've established about our Shepard is lost in light of the Starchild.

#134
AntonioA9011

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Lyrebon wrote...

AntonioA9011 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

A BioWare product is only broken if the disc literally doesn't work in your drive. Then you have consumers rights to demand them to mail you a new disc.

The ending isn't something that can be considered 'broken' because many people didn't like it. I don't think a lot of people understand this.


Semi-relevant if Bioware didn't go out of their way to advertise certain key elements of the franchise that were not followed in the last ten minutes of the game.


IBut it was followed in the rest of the game. The last 10 minutes does not represent all of Mass Effect 3.


Don't expect them to follow common sense.  To them 10 minutes equates 40 hours.


The investiture into the story and the characters being bombed in the last 10 minutes isn't worth feeling hugely dissapointed about?

What was the point in building up our Shepards, who was unique and intimately identifiable to each one of us, only to have their journey end with them becoming a mindless husk who accepts anything the Catalyst says. Who, in his/her final moments is not granted a heroes death because we don't have enough information to understand the consequences.

It's an insult to the literary critic in all of us.


Lyrebon, I actually disagree with this. In ME1 & ME2, I felt as though Commander Shepard was unique to me. I was building their personality and their traits, their allies and enemies even within the Normandy. In ME3, that uniqueness was snatched from me right in the beginning of ME3. I noticed my Shepard was acting out of character throughtout the entire game. It wasn't just the end of ME3 having absolutely no choice, though that's a part of it, it felt as though in ME3, the entire game my Shepard was no longer my Shepard. She/He was BioWare's Shepard.
I chalk it up to the art of Auto-Dialogue.


They still had a personality until the end (regardless of it being mine or Bioware's), that's what I was trying to get at. But your point is succinct aswel.


Well, yes Commander Shepard had "a" personality until the end. It wasn't the personality that I wanted for them, that I crafted from the original game, but they had one. Take for instance my FemShep; she's a semi Paragon who always told Williams to shape up, didn't handle rejection well (love or otherwise), passive agressive, couldn't stand Jack, thought Zaeed was crazy so left him on Zorya, but she was willing to go the distance for her crew and treated everyone with respect until they crossed her.
In ME3, I couldn't slap the **** out of Vega right in the beginning when he was freaking out, I couldn't tell EDI to go shove it, I couldn't tell Kaidan to shut up about my former allegiance to Cereberus, I couldn't tell Liara to quit moping and that things will get better, My Shep couldn't get Jacob back or tell him to go **** himself, and worst of all, I couldn't tell StarChild to shut the **** up.
The auto-dialogue just didn't make things interesting anymore and I felt as though I was playing a run-of-the-mill shooter game like Call of Mass Gears. Posted Image

IMHO, the game was just foundationally broken from the get go. When I read the original script, I was actually very excited, though I have no idea how it dissolved to  what we have now is a serious mystery.

Modifié par AntonioA9011, 16 mai 2012 - 10:42 .


#135
Lyrebon

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KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

So in other words you are gossiping about me and slandering me.


Want a tissue?



I could ask you that with the way you have been crying about me.


While we're at it I have a friend in construction, he could widen the door frames around your house to fit your ego through.


And this is ME 3 related how?  Look I know you are obsessed about me because well I am awesome but this thread isn't about me so stop trolling and stay on topic.


Posted Image

#136
spiriticon

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Lyrebon wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

That's not the point of the concerns at all. That's just an alternative hypothesis to a single theory that came about as a solution to retconning the end entirely.

The problem with the end is that Starbrat appears from nowhere, was never alluded to, and practically demolishes everything you ever believed about the story in those few minutes you're forced to listen to his crap.

The Reapers aren't the malevolent beings you were made to believe, but simply puppets.

We know we can't trust what he says, so why does Shepard implicitly acquiesce to these methods without questioning them or finding another solution him/herself?

It completely tears away the soul of our unique Shepards and we lose any identity with them at that point.



The Catalyst was alluded to for the whole of the game in ME3. It's not something that appeared out of nowhere. Everyone just expected it to be, well, an object rather than a confusing AI.

Again, If you know that you can't trust what it says, then Shepard would choose Destroy. Every time, like my Shepard did. The mass relays might not go nova, and the geth might live. You didn't trust him on Control anyway, why start trusting him when he says what he says about Destroy?


Exactly the point; where's the option to question that? Where's the option to say "bulls***, there must be another way"? Everything we've established about our Shepard is lost in light of the Starchild.


The way to say bull**** to the starchild is to go to the red tube and shoot the crap out of it. Actions speak louder than words.

Well either that or try and take on the Reapers conventionally. I don't have much hope for that.

Modifié par spiriticon, 16 mai 2012 - 10:42 .


#137
KotorEffect3

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Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

So in other words you are gossiping about me and slandering me.


Want a tissue?



I could ask you that with the way you have been crying about me.


While we're at it I have a friend in construction, he could widen the door frames around your house to fit your ego through.


And this is ME 3 related how?  Look I know you are obsessed about me because well I am awesome but this thread isn't about me so stop trolling and stay on topic.


Posted Image


Congradulations you posted a picture.

#138
GreenDragon37

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spiriticon wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

That's not the point of the concerns at all. That's just an alternative hypothesis to a single theory that came about as a solution to retconning the end entirely.

The problem with the end is that Starbrat appears from nowhere, was never alluded to, and practically demolishes everything you ever believed about the story in those few minutes you're forced to listen to his crap.

The Reapers aren't the malevolent beings you were made to believe, but simply puppets.

We know we can't trust what he says, so why does Shepard implicitly acquiesce to these methods without questioning them or finding another solution him/herself?

It completely tears away the soul of our unique Shepards and we lose any identity with them at that point.



The Catalyst was alluded to for the whole of the game in ME3. It's not something that appeared out of nowhere. Everyone just expected it to be, well, an object rather than a confusing AI.

Again, If you know that you can't trust what it says, then Shepard would choose Destroy. Every time, like my Shepard did. The mass relays might not go nova, and the geth might live. You didn't trust him on Control anyway, why start trusting him when he says what he says about Destroy?


Exactly the point; where's the option to question that? Where's the option to say "bulls***, there must be another way"? Everything we've established about our Shepard is lost in light of the Starchild.


The way to say bull**** to the starchild is to go to the red tube and shoot the crap out of it. Actions speak louder than words.


That's not really saying "no." Even in destroy, Shepard wins, but on the Reaper's terms. I still had to destroy my allies (the Geth) and friend (EDI) and the Mass Relays. That's not really saying "**** you" so much as it is saying "I'll just pick the lesser of three evils, but it still sucks hard."

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 16 mai 2012 - 10:47 .


#139
wantedman dan

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KotorEffect3 wrote...

Not really it's not like the ending somehow retroactively went back in time and made you enjoy the rest of the game and series less while you were playing it.  Now if you want to argue that going forward you can't play it because of the ending than that is another matter.


Yes, really. It is exactly how the ending has impacted me; why would I still consider something--remember something as--fun if it's not worthwhile?

#140
Humanoid_Typhoon

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spiriticon wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

That's not the point of the concerns at all. That's just an alternative hypothesis to a single theory that came about as a solution to retconning the end entirely.

The problem with the end is that Starbrat appears from nowhere, was never alluded to, and practically demolishes everything you ever believed about the story in those few minutes you're forced to listen to his crap.

The Reapers aren't the malevolent beings you were made to believe, but simply puppets.

We know we can't trust what he says, so why does Shepard implicitly acquiesce to these methods without questioning them or finding another solution him/herself?

It completely tears away the soul of our unique Shepards and we lose any identity with them at that point.



The Catalyst was alluded to for the whole of the game in ME3. It's not something that appeared out of nowhere. Everyone just expected it to be, well, an object rather than a confusing AI.

Again, If you know that you can't trust what it says, then Shepard would choose Destroy. Every time, like my Shepard did. The mass relays might not go nova, and the geth might live. You didn't trust him on Control anyway, why start trusting him when he says what he says about Destroy?


Exactly the point; where's the option to question that? Where's the option to say "bulls***, there must be another way"? Everything we've established about our Shepard is lost in light of the Starchild.


The way to say bull**** to the starchild is to go to the red tube and shoot the crap out of it. Actions speak louder than words.

Well either that or try and take on the Reapers conventionally. I don't have much hope for that.

Look, you're being civil so I will respond in kind, we get what you are saying but not anywhere in the 14 lines of dialogue does starkid explain how to activate any of these choices, nor is there any reason to beleive that walking up to any of them will do anything more than just kill you, for all Shepard knows you could take one step forward and a trap door will open up and send you plummeting to the Earth.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 16 mai 2012 - 10:48 .


#141
Lyrebon

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spiriticon wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

That's not the point of the concerns at all. That's just an alternative hypothesis to a single theory that came about as a solution to retconning the end entirely.

The problem with the end is that Starbrat appears from nowhere, was never alluded to, and practically demolishes everything you ever believed about the story in those few minutes you're forced to listen to his crap.

The Reapers aren't the malevolent beings you were made to believe, but simply puppets.

We know we can't trust what he says, so why does Shepard implicitly acquiesce to these methods without questioning them or finding another solution him/herself?

It completely tears away the soul of our unique Shepards and we lose any identity with them at that point.



The Catalyst was alluded to for the whole of the game in ME3. It's not something that appeared out of nowhere. Everyone just expected it to be, well, an object rather than a confusing AI.

Again, If you know that you can't trust what it says, then Shepard would choose Destroy. Every time, like my Shepard did. The mass relays might not go nova, and the geth might live. You didn't trust him on Control anyway, why start trusting him when he says what he says about Destroy?


Exactly the point; where's the option to question that? Where's the option to say "bulls***, there must be another way"? Everything we've established about our Shepard is lost in light of the Starchild.


The way to say bull**** to the starchild is to go to the red tube and shoot the crap out of it. Actions speak louder than words.

Well either that or try and take on the Reapers conventionally. I don't have much hope for that.


Is turning off the console right at that moment considered an option?

EDIT: My whole problem with the ending is what Humanoid_Typhoon said. There's just... nothing at the end. No peace of mind, no conclusion, no emotional catharsis. No identification.

Modifié par Lyrebon, 16 mai 2012 - 10:53 .


#142
spiriticon

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GreenDragon37 wrote...

That's not really saying "no." Even in destroy, Shepard wins, but on the Reaper's terms. I still had to destroy m
y allies (the Geth) and friends (EDI) and the Mass Relays. That's not really saying "**** you" so much as it is saying "I'll just pick the lesser of three evils, but it still sucks hard."


When did you start believing the Catalyst about destroying your allies and friends and the mass relays?

If you trusted him that everything he said would happen, why didn't you trust him on Control when he tried to sell that option to you?

That's the problem. Which bits of his 13 lines can you trust?

#143
Lyrebon

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KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

So in other words you are gossiping about me and slandering me.


Want a tissue?



I could ask you that with the way you have been crying about me.


While we're at it I have a friend in construction, he could widen the door frames around your house to fit your ego through.


And this is ME 3 related how?  Look I know you are obsessed about me because well I am awesome but this thread isn't about me so stop trolling and stay on topic.


Posted Image


Congradulations you posted a picture.


You two should meet...

#144
KotorEffect3

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Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

So in other words you are gossiping about me and slandering me.


Want a tissue?



I could ask you that with the way you have been crying about me.


While we're at it I have a friend in construction, he could widen the door frames around your house to fit your ego through.


And this is ME 3 related how?  Look I know you are obsessed about me because well I am awesome but this thread isn't about me so stop trolling and stay on topic.


Posted Image


Congradulations you posted a picture.


You two should meet...



Or you could look in a mirror.  You really should stop hijacking this thread with your flaming and your trolling.  Like I said either you can ignore me or you can PM me.

#145
GreenDragon37

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spiriticon wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

That's not really saying "no." Even in destroy, Shepard wins, but on the Reaper's terms. I still had to destroy m
y allies (the Geth) and friends (EDI) and the Mass Relays. That's not really saying "**** you" so much as it is saying "I'll just pick the lesser of three evils, but it still sucks hard."


When did you start believing the Catalyst about destroying your allies and friends and the mass relays?

If you trusted him that everything he said would happen, why didn't you trust him on Control when he tried to sell that option to you?

That's the problem. Which bits of his 13 lines can you trust?


That's the problem. I can't trust anything the LEADER OF THE REAPERS says. There is no "**** you" option, and that just pisses me off. 

#146
KotorEffect3

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GreenDragon37 wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

That's not really saying "no." Even in destroy, Shepard wins, but on the Reaper's terms. I still had to destroy m
y allies (the Geth) and friends (EDI) and the Mass Relays. That's not really saying "**** you" so much as it is saying "I'll just pick the lesser of three evils, but it still sucks hard."


When did you start believing the Catalyst about destroying your allies and friends and the mass relays?

If you trusted him that everything he said would happen, why didn't you trust him on Control when he tried to sell that option to you?

That's the problem. Which bits of his 13 lines can you trust?


That's the problem. I can't trust anything the LEADER OF THE REAPERS says. There is no "**** you" option, and that just pisses me off. 



So you are just not going to to do anything let the crucible go to waste and let the reapers win anyway?

#147
KotorEffect3

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wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Not really it's not like the ending somehow retroactively went back in time and made you enjoy the rest of the game and series less while you were playing it.  Now if you want to argue that going forward you can't play it because of the ending than that is another matter.


Yes, really. It is exactly how the ending has impacted me; why would I still consider something--remember something as--fun if it's not worthwhile?


I think that has more to do with you and how you remember things than anything the game did at the time

#148
Humanoid_Typhoon

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KotorEffect3 wrote...


Or you could look in a mirror.  You really should stop hijacking this thread with your flaming and your trolling.  Like I said either you can ignore me or you can PM me.

:blink:

#149
KotorEffect3

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...


Or you could look in a mirror.  You really should stop hijacking this thread with your flaming and your trolling.  Like I said either you can ignore me or you can PM me.

:blink:



Feel free to ignore me as well or stick on topic.

#150
GreenDragon37

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KotorEffect3 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

That's not really saying "no." Even in destroy, Shepard wins, but on the Reaper's terms. I still had to destroy m
y allies (the Geth) and friends (EDI) and the Mass Relays. That's not really saying "**** you" so much as it is saying "I'll just pick the lesser of three evils, but it still sucks hard."


When did you start believing the Catalyst about destroying your allies and friends and the mass relays?

If you trusted him that everything he said would happen, why didn't you trust him on Control when he tried to sell that option to you?

That's the problem. Which bits of his 13 lines can you trust?


That's the problem. I can't trust anything the LEADER OF THE REAPERS says. There is no "**** you" option, and that just pisses me off. 



So you are just not going to to do anything let the crucible go to waste and let the reapers win anyway?


What does it matter? Nothing matters in the end anyway.  Everything is left up to "speculation."

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 16 mai 2012 - 11:02 .