193 réponses à ce sujet

[No Snakes Alive]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

It really depends on the player. I just had 3 public games. 2 I played Justicar Bulwark Build, outscored everyone, including the GI with his GPS, then I played GE and outscored 2 GIs, one with GPS and Claymore. If I had been playing with some people I know using those builds though, no way I would have outscored them.

Such truth.

But this is exactly what I was saying before.  Saying that a good player can outperform a bad player does not mean that things are balanced or not.  Some characters have a higher upper potential than others and/or do better in various matchups than others.

But what I'm saying is that the upper potential variation doesn't matter if all the classes can reach a high enough potential to succeed and succeed well in this cooperative setting. No need to rebalance if that's the case and I feel it is.

[GodlessPaladin]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

It really depends on the player. I just had 3 public games. 2 I played Justicar Bulwark Build, outscored everyone, including the GI with his GPS, then I played GE and outscored 2 GIs, one with GPS and Claymore. If I had been playing with some people I know using those builds though, no way I would have outscored them.

Such truth.

But this is exactly what I was saying before.  Saying that a good player can outperform a bad player does not mean that things are balanced or not.  Some characters have a higher upper potential than others and/or do better in various matchups than others.

But what I'm saying is that the upper potential variation doesn't matter if all the classes can reach a high enough potential to succeed and succeed well in this cooperative setting. No need to rebalance if that's the case and I feel it is.

There are different degrees of success.

[RamsenC]

Perfect balance is impossible, the only thing Bioware should concern themselves with is making each class fun and unique. There are classes in need of a fun/uniqueness boost though.

[No Snakes Alive]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

It really depends on the player. I just had 3 public games. 2 I played Justicar Bulwark Build, outscored everyone, including the GI with his GPS, then I played GE and outscored 2 GIs, one with GPS and Claymore. If I had been playing with some people I know using those builds though, no way I would have outscored them.

Such truth.

But this is exactly what I was saying before.  Saying that a good player can outperform a bad player does not mean that things are balanced or not.  Some characters have a higher upper potential than others and/or do better in various matchups than others.

But what I'm saying is that the upper potential variation doesn't matter if all the classes can reach a high enough potential to succeed and succeed well in this cooperative setting. No need to rebalance if that's the case and I feel it is.

There are different degrees of success.

Which matters in a competitive setting. This is cooperative. If my friends and I can reach extraction with Quarian Engineers every time who gives a crap if a melee spamming Geth Infiltrator can do it quicker, right? In this game, there's really only one degree of success that matters: Mission Complete.

Soemething tells me you're a power-gamer to the max lol.

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 18 mai 2012 - 12:52 .

[Atheosis]

Nerf Tactical Cloak.

Buffing every class up to EASY MODE is not the way to go.

[GodlessPaladin]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

It really depends on the player. I just had 3 public games. 2 I played Justicar Bulwark Build, outscored everyone, including the GI with his GPS, then I played GE and outscored 2 GIs, one with GPS and Claymore. If I had been playing with some people I know using those builds though, no way I would have outscored them.

Such truth.

But this is exactly what I was saying before.  Saying that a good player can outperform a bad player does not mean that things are balanced or not.  Some characters have a higher upper potential than others and/or do better in various matchups than others.

But what I'm saying is that the upper potential variation doesn't matter if all the classes can reach a high enough potential to succeed and succeed well in this cooperative setting. No need to rebalance if that's the case and I feel it is.

There are different degrees of success.

Which matters in a competitive setting. This is cooperative. If my friends and I can reach extraction with Quarian Engineers every time who gives a crap if a melee spamming Geth Infiltrator can do it quicker, right? In this game, there's really only one degree of success that matters: Mission Complete.

Soemething tells me you're a power-gamer to the max lol.

It has nothing to do with being a "power gamer."  You are arguing against the idea that balance is imperfect and can and should be improved, which is a barrier to getting any real game design discussion, such as that the OP desired, even started.  You simply blindly defend the status quo.  You can never be a game designer like that, because defending the status quo doesn't actually create anything, let alone a compelling aesthetic experience. 

The whole idea that balance only matters in competitive games is absurd.  Balance is a fundamental part of good game design in single player games, cooperative games, and pretty much every type of game.  And you may not even realize it (most gamers don't really understand WHY they're having fun), but if your brain is anything like that of most humans you have more fun when game designers do it well.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 18 mai 2012 - 02:42 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

Atheosis wrote...

Nerf Tactical Cloak.

Buffing every class up to EASY MODE is not the way to go.

Sure, but what aspects would you nerf and what would you keep?
We'd have to keep the invisibility obviously.

What does that leave?
The duration
The damage bonuses
The cooldown
The ability to cast powers without bonus power mod, unlike marksman/adrenaline rush.

Which of those would you nerf? and how?

I like to think nerfing is much more straightforward than buffing, just reduce a few parameters.
With buffs, you might have more incentive to toss in some new ideas in the case that the original design is somehow flawed at a fundamental level.

I suppose that can happen with OP stuff too, but less likely i feel

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 18 mai 2012 - 02:51 .

[dream3873]

I do not think its much of an issue. Most of the time i outscore infiltrators on gold useing GE and kroguards. But that what they are made for pure dps. As far as im concerned the faster we can kill stuff the better.

[No Snakes Alive]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Stardusk wrote...

It really depends on the player. I just had 3 public games. 2 I played Justicar Bulwark Build, outscored everyone, including the GI with his GPS, then I played GE and outscored 2 GIs, one with GPS and Claymore. If I had been playing with some people I know using those builds though, no way I would have outscored them.

Such truth.

But this is exactly what I was saying before.  Saying that a good player can outperform a bad player does not mean that things are balanced or not.  Some characters have a higher upper potential than others and/or do better in various matchups than others.

But what I'm saying is that the upper potential variation doesn't matter if all the classes can reach a high enough potential to succeed and succeed well in this cooperative setting. No need to rebalance if that's the case and I feel it is.

There are different degrees of success.

Which matters in a competitive setting. This is cooperative. If my friends and I can reach extraction with Quarian Engineers every time who gives a crap if a melee spamming Geth Infiltrator can do it quicker, right? In this game, there's really only one degree of success that matters: Mission Complete.

Soemething tells me you're a power-gamer to the max lol.

It has nothing to do with being a "power gamer."  You are arguing against the idea that balance is imperfect and can and should be improved, which is a barrier to getting any real game design discussion, such as that the OP desired, even started.  You simply blindly defend the status quo.  You can never be a game designer like that, because defending the status quo doesn't actually create anything, let alone a compelling aesthetic experience. 

The whole idea that balance only matters in competitive games is absurd.  Balance is a fundamental part of good game design in single player games, cooperative games, and pretty much every type of game.  And you may not even realize it (most gamers don't really understand WHY they're having fun), but if your brain is anything like that of most humans you have more fun when game designers do it well.

Okay let me rephrase it then, because I'm NOT against improving classes and WOULD have agreed that the Batarian Sentinel was completely underpowered had they not buffed Shockwave to become the strongest multi-detonating spammable power in the game. Now I can have a ton of fun paired with a few good, well-synchronized Asari and Drell.

So I have nothing against improving the other
classes, just not to the extent of the Geth Infiltrator. That's what it boils down to; tone down the overpowered classes before you turn the rest of the classes into easymoders too (and do I really even want them to nerf the GI in this cooperative game for balance's sake? No, as long as any class can succeed on Gold, that's all that matters to me). But when it comes to balancing everyone up to the Infiltrator's level, there's just
nothing fun or rewarding, to ME personally, about that kind of easy gameplay (aside from the awesome influx of credits). 

The god mode classes are super efficient - don't get me wrong,
you've proven that - but most of the time I'm NOT looking to
significantly shorten waves with missiles or have the GI rush a spawn
while us Biotics sit upstairs twiddling our thumbs. I'm looking to have
four people enjoy the game for however long it lasts. A team full of well-synchronized Biotics (from Asari Adepts to lowly Batarian Sentinels) who detonate eachother's explosions in tandem but beat the mission in 26 minutes is just a lot more fun to me than having one Drell rush a forced spawn with cluster spam and missiles to beat Gold in 17.

So the conundrum is that I certainly don't want them taking away the challenge from the rest of the classes, but I also don't really care to have a class nerfed in a cooperative setting either. So I'd rather them leave the classes as is (IF they're all capable classes), and if someone wants to play a broken GI, go for it, but if someone (me) doesn't, I won't have to.

[Faded_Jeans]

I like my infiltrator just the way he is, thank you very much All the other classes seems slow to me now. It's a challenging game, because I drop like a rock if I'm not careful. Gotta maintain awareness, keep moving, jump in cover, keep an eye on my team. That's the balance, IMO; it's already there. Would like a little penetration buff or something on my raptor though, so I can use it more effectively on gold. You don't have to make it wicked awesome, but just a little more would be nice.

[No Snakes Alive]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

Nerf Tactical Cloak.

Buffing every class up to EASY MODE is not the way to go.

Sure, but what aspects would you nerf and what would you keep?
We'd have to keep the invisibility obviously.

What does that leave?
The duration
The damage bonuses
The cooldown
The ability to cast powers without bonus power mod, unlike marksman/adrenaline rush.

Which of those would you nerf? and how?

I like to think nerfing is much more straightforward than buffing, just reduce a few parameters.
With buffs, you might have more incentive to toss in some new ideas in the case that the original design is somehow flawed at a fundamental level.

I suppose that can happen with OP stuff too, but less likely i feel

I don't care for nerfs in a non-competitive setting, but if you were to nerf anything it would obviously be cooldown. Please explain to me why the hell a Geth Infiltrator gets to hav a three second Cloak cooldown carrying around a Claymore if you use Cloak for it's intended purpose and shoot to break it (and receive a power buff). It makes no sense that heavy guns only affect the cooldown if you're stupid enough to let the duration run out without taking advantage of the backstab.

Wouldn't care if they left it as is though, like I said. It's not like other classes are competing with Infiltrators and losing. We're playing together and I'm playing who I find fun.

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 18 mai 2012 - 03:09 .

[CHAw]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Sure, but what aspects would you nerf and what would you keep?
We'd have to keep the invisibility obviously.

What does that leave?
The duration
The damage bonuses
The cooldown
The ability to cast powers without bonus power mod, unlike marksman/adrenaline rush.

Which of those would you nerf? and how?

I like to think nerfing is much more straightforward than buffing, just reduce a few parameters.
With buffs, you might have more incentive to toss in some new ideas in the case that the original design is somehow flawed at a fundamental level.

If I might offer my own thoughts on the matter:

Tactical Cloak's cooldown should be just as dependent on encumbrance as other powers - activating and immediately dropping it with only an ultralight Shuriken equipped should have a noticeably shorter cooldown than activating and immediately dropping it with a Claymore and Javelin equipped.

Also, if the Power Use upgrade is not chosen, using a power from Tactical Cloak should immediately negate any further damage bonus due for that cloak cycle (though the launched power should still retain the bonus, of course). That is, if you fire a Proximity Mine from cloak, and then start shooting, only the mine should receive the cloaked damage bonus if you don't have the Power Use upgrade.

[Grimy Bunyip]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

I don't care for nerfs in a non-cooperative setting, but if you were to nerf anything it would obviously be cooldown. Please explain to me why the hell a Geth Infiltrator gets to hav a three second Cloak cooldown carrying around a Claymore if you use Cloak for it's intended purpose and shoot to break it (and receive a power buff). It makes no sense that heavy guns only affect the cooldown if you're stupid enough to let the duration run out without taking advantage of the backstab.

Wouldn't care if they left it as is though, like I said. It's not like other classes are competing with Infiltrators and losing. We're playing together and I'm playing who I find fun.

I don't really think it's that obvious.
Making weight affect cloak more significantly would just turn the infiltrator into another caster class.
IDK the magnitude of the nerf you're proposing, but I don't think people would really use claymores on infiltrators if it meant a 4.5 second cooldown between cloaks, as opposed to say a 3 second cooldown on a talon or a wraith.

It also makes the game really slow for heavy sniper users too.
Lets say someone learns to fire a widow or a black widow at a constant pace.
messing with the cooldown is kind of like forcing a slower pace onto them.
Players learned to snipe at a fast pace, and the change kinda takes that skill and throws it out the window.
Not really a classy move.

I'd say duration or damage are better candidates since they're less likely to actually affect how someone plays infiltrator.

TLDR: changing cooldown mechanics might fundamentally change what it means to be an infiltrator.
a damage nerf is just a damage nerf, it doesn't really change what skills you need or want to play infiltrator.
I can kinda say the same for duration, although not to the same extent.

CHAw wrote...

If I might offer my own thoughts on the matter:

Tactical
Cloak's cooldown should be just as dependent on encumbrance as other
powers - activating and immediately dropping it with only an ultralight
Shuriken equipped should have a noticeably shorter cooldown than
activating and immediately dropping it with a Claymore and Javelin
equipped.

Also, if the Power Use upgrade is not chosen, using a
power from Tactical Cloak should immediately negate any further damage
bonus due for that cloak cycle (though the launched power should still
retain the bonus, of course). That is, if you fire a Proximity Mine from
cloak, and then start shooting, only the mine should receive the
cloaked damage bonus if you don't have the Power Use upgrade.

Answered this in the previous comment too.
TLDR:
There's too few weight resilient classes in the game.
And I see the cooldown resilience on the infiltrator to be more of a defining feature than a weird overpowered quirk.
Same goes for power use.
I'd prefer changes that don't affect what kind of player skills are needed or of high importance.
I'd want the infiltrator to still play and feel like it is now. And I think both a change to the cooldown and power usage step clearly over that line.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 18 mai 2012 - 03:18 .

[No Snakes Alive]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The whole idea that balance only matters in competitive games is absurd.  Balance is a fundamental part of good game design in single player games, cooperative games, and pretty much every type of game.  And you may not even realize it (most gamers don't really understand WHY they're having fun), but if your brain is anything like that of most humans you have more fun when game designers do it well.

By the way, good games, dude. I wouldn't say us Biotics were the most well-equipped or well-synchronized by any means, and my missile usage certainly wasn't up to par lol (totally going to read your guide tonight!, but even so I certainly concede that I'd probably have a very hard time outscoring a GI as capable as yours on the same team at the same time as me, and certainly never with ease. Hyperbole retracted. *Bows.

Now, maaaaybe on a team of 3 other Biotics (without a GI gimping their explosion output) a Sentinel could get that score higher than a GI on the same team (maybe!) but you'd have to let me find some damn good supportive Justicars before I issue anything that resembles any sort of challenge to prove that again lmao.

Down to play again any time though. Sure gets me credits faster than random random PUG's with randoms lol.

[landylan]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

Nerf Tactical Cloak.

Buffing every class up to EASY MODE is not the way to go.

Sure, but what aspects would you nerf and what would you keep?
We'd have to keep the invisibility obviously.

What does that leave?
The duration
The damage bonuses
The cooldown
The ability to cast powers without bonus power mod, unlike marksman/adrenaline rush.

Which of those would you nerf? and how?

I like to think nerfing is much more straightforward than buffing, just reduce a few parameters.
With buffs, you might have more incentive to toss in some new ideas in the case that the original design is somehow flawed at a fundamental level.

I suppose that can happen with OP stuff too, but less likely i feel

if you shoot the instant you go into cloak it doesnt affect your cooldown so you would nerf the cooldown so that infiltrators have to choose there loadouts differently

[ToaOrka]

I have noticed that when I do top the score-board on Gold, it's usually with an Infiltrator. It's a pretty good class, and relatively easy to be "good" with if you know how to spec your powers. The Krogan's melee is somewhat disappointing if you care at all about durability, and I wish there were more classes with Shockwave - Humans suck. Other than that, I haven't seen many balance issues - Quarian Engineer is a bit weak with it's power choices if you don't spec it right though.

[SinerAthin]

We could balance Sentinels by actually making them able to tank enemies and turning them into the team's tank (as they're supposed to be).

Give Soldiers the best weapon DPS in the game. (Making them able to out DPS Infiltrators if allowed to fire, seeing as they don't have cloak), making them the best front line fighter.

[CHAw]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

I don't really think it's that obvious.
Making weight affect cloak more significantly would just turn the infiltrator into another caster class.

Given that it is currently the only class for which this is the case for all reasonable builds, I don't see this as a bad thing.

IDK the magnitude of the nerf you're proposing, but I don't think people would really use claymores on infiltrators if it meant a 4.5 second cooldown between cloaks, as opposed to say a 3 second cooldown on a talon or a wraith.

I think they would. It depends on the playstyle really, but it would then be a choice between fewer, more powerful bursts of damage, or more frequent, less powerful bursts of damage. Kind of like how Human Soldiers are now.

It also makes the game really slow for heavy sniper users too.
Lets say someone learns to fire a widow or a black widow at a constant pace.
messing with the cooldown is kind of like forcing a slower pace onto them.
Players learned to snipe at a fast pace, and the change kinda takes that skill and throws it out the window.
Not really a classy move.

Perhaps it does change the pacing, but it would likely do so by increasing the variance of the pacing based on your weapon loadout. I think that this is a good thing.

I'd say duration or damage are better candidates since they're less likely to actually affect how someone plays infiltrator.

TLDR: changing cooldown mechanics might fundamentally change what it means to be an infiltrator.
a damage nerf is just a damage nerf, it doesn't really change what skills you need or want to play infiltrator.
I can kinda say the same for duration, although not to the same extent.

Depending on player psychology, I disagree with this. If the damage were changed such that a given Infiltrator now needs to fire 4 shots instead of 3 to kill a given target, it could be as much or more of a fundamental change for that player as a new time cycle. And if it doesn't change how many shots are required to kill a given target, it's not much of a "nerf," is it?

Answered this in the previous comment too.
TLDR:
There's too few weight resilient classes in the game.
And I see the cooldown resilience on the infiltrator to be more of a defining feature than a weird overpowered quirk.
Same goes for power use.
I'd prefer changes that don't affect what kind of player skills are needed or of high importance.
I'd want the infiltrator to still play and feel like it is now. And I think both a change to the cooldown and power usage step clearly over that line.

I don't think these changes will fundamentally change the Infiltrator's playstyle. In fact, I would even say that such a claim is absurd. There are two fundamental components of the Infiltrator's playstyle, in my opinion - the ability to cloak, and being a hybrid tech/combat class. Neither giving it an actual weight dependence nor balancing its power use frequency removes these core qualities from the Infiltrator.

They will change how any given Infiltrator uses these traits of course. But the same will be true for any balance change of significance.

Modifié par CHAw, 18 mai 2012 - 04:02 .

[No Snakes Alive]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

I don't care for nerfs in a non-cooperative setting, but if you were to nerf anything it would obviously be cooldown. Please explain to me why the hell a Geth Infiltrator gets to hav a three second Cloak cooldown carrying around a Claymore if you use Cloak for it's intended purpose and shoot to break it (and receive a power buff). It makes no sense that heavy guns only affect the cooldown if you're stupid enough to let the duration run out without taking advantage of the backstab.

Wouldn't care if they left it as is though, like I said. It's not like other classes are competing with Infiltrators and losing. We're playing together and I'm playing who I find fun.

I don't really think it's that obvious.
Making weight affect cloak more significantly would just turn the infiltrator into another caster class.
IDK the magnitude of the nerf you're proposing, but I don't think people would really use claymores on infiltrators if it meant a 4.5 second cooldown between cloaks, as opposed to say a 3 second cooldown on a talon or a wraith.

It also makes the game really slow for heavy sniper users too.
Lets say someone learns to fire a widow or a black widow at a constant pace.
messing with the cooldown is kind of like forcing a slower pace onto them.
Players learned to snipe at a fast pace, and the change kinda takes that skill and throws it out the window.
Not really a classy move.

I'd say duration or damage are better candidates since they're less likely to actually affect how someone plays infiltrator.

TLDR: changing cooldown mechanics might fundamentally change what it means to be an infiltrator.
a damage nerf is just a damage nerf, it doesn't really change what skills you need or want to play infiltrator.
I can kinda say the same for duration, although not to the same extent.

CHAw wrote...

If I might offer my own thoughts on the matter:

Tactical
Cloak's cooldown should be just as dependent on encumbrance as other
powers - activating and immediately dropping it with only an ultralight
Shuriken equipped should have a noticeably shorter cooldown than
activating and immediately dropping it with a Claymore and Javelin
equipped.

Also, if the Power Use upgrade is not chosen, using a
power from Tactical Cloak should immediately negate any further damage
bonus due for that cloak cycle (though the launched power should still
retain the bonus, of course). That is, if you fire a Proximity Mine from
cloak, and then start shooting, only the mine should receive the
cloaked damage bonus if you don't have the Power Use upgrade.

Answered this in the previous comment too.
TLDR:
There's too few weight resilient classes in the game.
And I see the cooldown resilience on the infiltrator to be more of a defining feature than a weird overpowered quirk.
Same goes for power use.
I'd prefer changes that don't affect what kind of player skills are needed or of high importance.
I'd want the infiltrator to still play and feel like it is now. And I think both a change to the cooldown and power usage step clearly over that line.

I respectfully disagree. You have to effectively choose between your weapon and powers on every other class.

You want a Claymore on a Krogan Sentinel? Better take Lift Grenades and forget about casting Incinerate.

You want to spam Ballistic Blades? Don't touch that Claymore.

You want to spam the best power in the game, as well as your other powers, AND carry around a Claymore (which even receives damage buffs from said powers), and hell, maybe even a Widow too cuz why the heck not? If you're an Infiltrator, then by all means please do!

Something doesn't add up...

[Grimy Bunyip]

landylan wrote...

if you shoot the instant you go into cloak it doesnt affect your cooldown so you would nerf the cooldown so that infiltrators have to choose there loadouts differently

Right, but lets say you make weight affect cooldown exactly as other classes do.

how many people would still use sniper rifles and claymores on their infiltrators?
it would drop the DPS on widows, javelins, black widows, and claymores to 750 or under.

whereas you'd still have the hurricane with its 1500-1800 DPS with tactical cloak
and paladin with 1000+ dps with tactical cloak

But yeah, who would actually use the widow or black widow anymore with such a game change?

No Snakes Alive wrote...

I respectfully disagree. You have to effectively choose between your weapon and powers on every other class.

You want a Claymore on a Krogan Sentinel? Better take Lift Grenades and forget about casting Incinerate.

You want to spam Ballistic Blades? Don't touch that Claymore.

You
want to spam the best power in the game, as well as your other powers,
AND carry around a Claymore (which even receives damage buffs from said
powers), and hell, maybe even a Widow too cuz why the heck not? If
you're an Infiltrator, then by all means please do!

Something doesn't add up...

same response as above.
what class would use the widow or black widow or javelin effectively anymore.
Wouldn't this just reduce every class to hurricane-carnifex as the optimal setup?

IMO the weight resilience of the infiltrator adds weapon diversity to the game.
Caster classes tend not to have weapon diversity, but they're power based so it's okay.

infiltrator's really a gun based class, less weapon diversity is not okay.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 18 mai 2012 - 03:36 .

[No Snakes Alive]

SinerAthin wrote...

We could balance Sentinels by actually making them able to tank enemies and turning them into the team's tank (as they're supposed to be).

Give Soldiers the best weapon DPS in the game. (Making them able to out DPS Infiltrators if allowed to fire, seeing as they don't have cloak), making them the best front line fighter.

I like the way this one thinks!

[Miriad]

Snakes, I see you are much more humble now than you were earlier. Try to be less of an Internet tough guy AND being completely mistaken next time. You only get one or the other, not both. And., fyi, your requirements of having 2 "biotic primer bots" was absolutely preposterous. Just saying what everyone else was thinking this whole thread.

[No Snakes Alive]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

landylan wrote...

if you shoot the instant you go into cloak it doesnt affect your cooldown so you would nerf the cooldown so that infiltrators have to choose there loadouts differently

Right, but lets say you make weight affect cooldown exactly as other classes do.

how many people would still use sniper rifles and claymores on their infiltrators?
it would drop the DPS on widows, javelins, black widows, and claymores to 750 or under.

whereas you'd still have the hurricane with its 1500-1800 DPS with tactical cloak
and paladin with 1000+ dps with tactical cloak

But yeah, who would actually use the widow or black widow anymore with such a game change?

No Snakes Alive wrote...

I respectfully disagree. You have to effectively choose between your weapon and powers on every other class.

You want a Claymore on a Krogan Sentinel? Better take Lift Grenades and forget about casting Incinerate.

You want to spam Ballistic Blades? Don't touch that Claymore.

You
want to spam the best power in the game, as well as your other powers,
AND carry around a Claymore (which even receives damage buffs from said
powers), and hell, maybe even a Widow too cuz why the heck not? If
you're an Infiltrator, then by all means please do!

Something doesn't add up...

same response as above.
what class would use the widow or black widow or javelin effectively anymore.
Wouldn't this just reduce every class to hurricane-carnifex as the optimal setup?

IMO the weight resilience of the infiltrator adds weapon diversity to the game.
Caster classes tend not to have weapon diversity, but they're power based so it's okay.

infiltrator's really a gun based class, less weapon diversity is not okay.

Having a 6 second cooldown to Cloak when you take the Claymore instead of a Hurricane wouldn't gimp the class. It would finally force careful, tactical play rather than LOL CLOAK RUSH SPAWN SHOOT POWER MELEE SHOOT GUN WIN RINSE REPEAT!

Even soldiers have to choose between careful use of powers with heavy weaponry or power spam with lightweight guns. That's where weapon diversity comes into play. Right now the only weapon diversity on an Inflltrator is which two hundred pound gun you'll lug around since it doesn't affect your cooldown at all.

[Grimy Bunyip]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Having a 6 second cooldown to Cloak when you take the Claymore instead of a Hurricane wouldn't gimp the class. It would finally force careful, tactical play rather than LOL CLOAK RUSH SPAWN SHOOT POWER MELEE SHOOT GUN WIN RINSE REPEAT!

Even soldiers have to choose between careful use of powers with heavy weaponry or power spam with lightweight guns. That's where weapon diversity comes into play. Right now the only weapon diversity on an Inflltrator is which two hundred pound gun you'll lug around since it doesn't affect your cooldown at all.

Gonna disagree with you again here.
Tactical play is not determined by how often a players stays out of cover.
A player can be shooting non stop and still be tactical.

But yes, tactical play usually involves some degree of sitting out of major battle.
But firing for 1-2 seconds (the duration of the cloak damage window)
then sitting out for the next 5 seconds because you have a claymore is far too extreme.

You're essentially fixing 1 issue (infiltrator's having cooldown problems)
In exchange for breaking the game balance of many weapons that are otherwise only useable by infiltrators.

If you play with a good team, everybody rambos. There's very little time to take a break, there's very little time for cover, and still, very few people die.
A cooldown nerf would kind of spit in the face of players who have learned to play that well.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 18 mai 2012 - 03:50 .

[No Snakes Alive]

Miriad wrote...

Snakes, I see you are much more humble now than you were earlier. Try to be less of an Internet tough guy AND being completely mistaken next time. You only get one or the other, not both. And., fyi, your requirements of having 2 "biotic primer bots" was absolutely preposterous. Just saying what everyone else was thinking this whole thread.

I was never cocky about anything. I suggested we have a match together with Biotics to try and demonstrate that a Batarian Sentinel is awesome with Biotic back-up. It has the srongest detonator in the game, it can detonate multiple explosions, and it's spammable. That makes it a damn good class on a team of Reavers.

Certainly not as good without Reavers, so I don't see how that was so preposterous. I also never did challenge him to a who-can-score-higher? match with his friends letting him rush the spawns with Geth Infiltrator melees and rockets. All I "challenged" him to do was show that what he thought was allegedly the worst class in the game can bring plenty to the table with the right team composition. Didn't really get a chance to prove that, either.

Was I wrong in what I said earlier in the post that a Batarian Sentinel can oustcore a Geth Infiltrator? I still don't think so if you've got three other Biotics who aren't level 12 on Gold complaining about how sucky Justicars are. I think it's POSSIBLE. Not likely if the GI knows what he's doing - and Godless certainly does, as I expected - but again, most don't anyway. If I post a screenshot of a game with me oustcoring an Infiltrator, I've proven my point.



How many times do I have to reiterate that it was only ever a good-natured attempt to show what a Batarian Sentinel can do on the right team? I wasn't the one who turned it into a pay-per-view death match, so I think your claims about hubris are misplaced.

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 18 mai 2012 - 03:57 .