193 réponses à ce sujet

[No Snakes Alive]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Having a 6 second cooldown to Cloak when you take the Claymore instead of a Hurricane wouldn't gimp the class. It would finally force careful, tactical play rather than LOL CLOAK RUSH SPAWN SHOOT POWER MELEE SHOOT GUN WIN RINSE REPEAT!

Even soldiers have to choose between careful use of powers with heavy weaponry or power spam with lightweight guns. That's where weapon diversity comes into play. Right now the only weapon diversity on an Inflltrator is which two hundred pound gun you'll lug around since it doesn't affect your cooldown at all.

Gonna disagree with you again here.
Tactical play is not determined by how often a players stays out of cover.
A player can be shooting non stop and still be tactical.

But yes, tactical play usually involves some degree of sitting out of major battle.
But firing for 1-2 seconds (the duration of the cloak damage window)
then sitting out for the next 5 seconds because you have a claymore is far too extreme.

You're essentially fixing 1 issue (infiltrator's having cooldown problems)
In exchange for breaking the game balance of many weapons that are otherwise only useable by infiltrators.

If you play with a good team, everybody rambos. There's very little time to take a break, there's very little time for cover, and still, very few people die.
A cooldown nerf would kind of spit in the face of players who have learned to play that well.

You realize you can still shoot uncloaked right? You're acting like you don't... lol.

Other classes have to shoot in between using powers, and vice versa. Would it really be so bad if not every single shot on an Infiltrator with a Claymore received 90% more damage from Cloak's effects? Would it be okay if it took four Claymore shots from a Geth Infiltraor to take down an Atlas because two didn't have Cloak's power boost, rather than TWO shots like it does now?

You've gotten too used to the endless cycle of cloak and kill, IMO.

[Grimy Bunyip]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

You realize you can still shoot uncloaked right? You're acting like you don't... lol.

Other classes have to shoot in between using powers, and vice versa. Would it really be so bad if not every single shot on an Infiltrator with a Claymore received 90% more damage from Cloak's effects? Would it be okay if it took four Claymore shots from a Geth Infiltraor to take down an Atlas because two didn't have Cloak's power boost, rather than TWO shots like it does now?

You've gotten too used to the endless cycle of cloak and kill, IMO.

I think you misinterpretted the issue.

On most classes, using a claymore instead of a katana would mean your shotgun is doing more DPS.
Assuming you were still firing when not receiving the cloak damage bonus with a claymore.

A katana would deal more DPS than that claymore, because the cooldown with the claymore would be at least 6.2 seconds.

That's the issue.
a katana shouldn't be a better DPSing gun on an infiltrator than a claymore.

If I'm carrying a claymore on an infiltrator, Sure, I expect my powers to be more limited.
But I shouldn't expect the DPS coming out of my gun to be worse.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 18 mai 2012 - 04:11 .

[CHAw]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

You're essentially fixing 1 issue (infiltrator's having cooldown problems)
In exchange for breaking the game balance of many weapons that are otherwise only useable by infiltrators.

If you break something that's already broken, does it really break anything? If anything, it may help remind the person doing the repairs that it's broken, and that they should get around to fixing it.

[Bedlam74]

Farmtech-Ru wrote...

This info is not correct, nearly completely. Infiltrators are best in random bs, when there's no teamplay. In a coordinated team with healing from GI, other classes do quite some damage aaand have fun in the process of doing so. Coordinated turian attacks or batarian bb salvos done by 3 soldiers can wreak total havok. Under the condition of timely healing and or defensive justicar field.

I agree with this.  I have ran successful Gold matches on a team with KS, KV, and 2 BS.   We destroyed everything and had fun in the process.  In a similar way, I've had successful Gold matches with a team of all Vanguards.  Most times it is more important to have a coordinated team effort except if you're on Bronze.  An infiltrator, or an other class for that matter, just can't sit back and take down enemies on Silver or Gold without support from the team.  On Bronze, an infiltrator can pick a spot and kill anything they see before it becomes a threat.

Infiltrators are not overpowered.  Sniper rifles do a lot of damage per shot at a price.  Soldiers can carry sniper rifles as well, but why do that when you can take advantage of the tactical cloak damage bonuses.  

Personally, I think the Batarian Soldier, if set up properly, is overpowered.  My Batarian Soldier snickers at the thought of Silver being a challenge.

[Grimy Bunyip]

CHAw wrote...

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

You're essentially fixing 1 issue (infiltrator's having cooldown problems)
In exchange for breaking the game balance of many weapons that are otherwise only useable by infiltrators.

If you break something that's already broken, does it really break anything? If anything, it may help remind the person doing the repairs that it's broken, and that they should get around to fixing it.

no, but it doesn't really fix anything either does it?
At best you have a net gain of zero.
At worst, you cause more problems than you "fix".

Which is essentially what I'm trying to get at here.
If you make cloak CD like other classes, you're making another problem that is, arguably much more troublesome to fix than the problem you're trying to fix.

You need to consider an alternative solution other than cooldown is what I'm trying to say.
They exist, and they're viable.

[No Snakes Alive]

Bedlam74 wrote...

Farmtech-Ru wrote...

This info is not correct, nearly completely. Infiltrators are best in random bs, when there's no teamplay. In a coordinated team with healing from GI, other classes do quite some damage aaand have fun in the process of doing so. Coordinated turian attacks or batarian bb salvos done by 3 soldiers can wreak total havok. Under the condition of timely healing and or defensive justicar field.

I agree with this.  I have ran successful Gold matches on a team with KS, KV, and 2 BS.   We destroyed everything and had fun in the process.  In a similar way, I've had successful Gold matches with a team of all Vanguards.  Most times it is more important to have a coordinated team effort except if you're on Bronze. 

These are exactly the points I was trying to make in the first place in this mess of a thread. Two Justicars and two Batarian Sentinels or maybe a couple of Drell in there too... when that team actually works in tandem, it's a thing of beauty. There's more paths to success in a cooperative team game than simply forcing spawns and letting the overpowered class clear them out in two seconds flat. That's certainly an effective method of coordination, but so is just roaming around as a pack biotically exploding everything in sight togther. And I'm not the only one who finds the latter WAY more enjoyable.

And that was just one example. A couple of Batarian Soldiers holding down the front line while Geth Engineers lock down everyone in sight and restore the front line's shield, when executed well, is one hell of a squad. Hell, most people think Krogan Soldiers suck, but what about that freaking awesome video of four Krogans just meleeing the ever-loving crap out of every enemy they stumbled across without firing a single bullet? It was effective since they completed the challenge, right? And it sure as hell looked fun.

Is running aound with 4 Geth Infiltrators MORE efficient? Absolutely. But since when does efficient translate directly into effective in a game where the goal is to have fun and complete untimed missions? That's all I've ever been trying to say, really. Some people are just too focused on max DPS and other crap that's not as significant as you'd like to believe.

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 18 mai 2012 - 04:21 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Is running aound with 4 Geth Infiltrators MORE efficient? Absolutely. But since when does efficient translate directly into effective in a game where the goal is to have fun and complete untimed missions? That's all I've ever been trying to say, really. Some people are just too focused on max DPS and other crap that's not as significant as you'd like to believe.

Believe it or not, the majority of gamers play moreso to unlock N7's than to actually enjoy the game itself.
That's why so many people play firebase white.
And even if you're not that kind of person, there's plenty of people who like trying to be efficient for the sake learning to be good at the game.

Also your last statement sounds like you're trying to convince people in a BALANCE thread that DPS and "other crap" is not important relative to "fun", you're in the wrong place.
Yes fun is important, but it's very much tangential to the topic at hand.

Finally, infiltrators can be team players, nothing about them makes them any worse of a team player than soldiers.
They're simply better at soloing, so people who prefer to solo flock to them.
What would happen if you removed this ability to solo as effectively?
They'll just find the next best class to solo with.

[Bedlam74]

For me, an Infiltrator is the most versatile class for random matches. I can be a support player if teammates are rushing and very aggressive, or I can take over if the team appears to be struggling, or I can cover the soldiers and vanguards when they get in a bind, or I can cover the flanks, run and cover or terminate objectives. On a team full of adepts, I just sit back and watch the biotic'splosions.

But that's just me.

[Methanoid666]

I'll agree infiltrators are good for randoms/solo performances, but a team of full asari adept/asari justicar/human sentinel totally dominate with their scaled biosplosions, not even requiring to use a weapon at all if they don't want too.

can just have warp/throw/reave spam to down everything with ease.

[IndigoVitare]

Faded_Jeans wrote...

I like my infiltrator just the way he is, thank you very much All the other classes seems slow to me now. It's a challenging game, because I drop like a rock if I'm not careful. Gotta maintain awareness, keep moving, jump in cover, keep an eye on my team. That's the balance, IMO; it's already there. Would like a little penetration buff or something on my raptor though, so I can use it more effectively on gold. You don't have to make it wicked awesome, but just a little more would be nice.

Infiltrators don't have less health than other classes. Health is assigned racially, so they can all "drop like a rock" too. The only difference is they can't turn invisible.

Again, just like to reiterate that my main problem with the infiltrator is that it often damages team mates, not that it's directly overpowered.

[Skorpijon]

So i seem to be offensive cause i moaned about the nerfing. Obviously the topic said nothing about nerfing anything, but players posting talk about it a lot.

Get out of the competative thinking mode already and use your brain. You can take any class, you dont compete against anybody, it doesnt matter insanly if something is easier to play as something else.

Btw most played class is a soldier. How is that possible if infiltrator is so awesome. Or are you telling me that everyone is handicapping themselfs by not playing it?

These topics pop up every time and every time it gets to a point where there are calls for nerf. Several groups are pro or anti nerfing infiltrators. Why do you have such a problem playing with infiltrators? You dont like it take something else. Oh someone rocking a claymore is not feeling the weight as other classes. Why dont you rock a claymore? You dont want to play like that? Well whats the problem then? Jealous about the guy that can?

I really dont see the point. It doesnt break anything yet ppl complain all the time. All the time. As i said in my previous post. Leave it be, use it or dont.

Its a fantasy shooter, some class does something better then others deal with it.

[tallinn]

Jumping right to the end of this thread just to answer the question in the subject.

To reach the goal all those other classes need to be nerfed.

Once all guys whining about OP classes have dropped the game we will eventually see that everything is fine.

And I never play an Inf. Just not my style.

[RGFrog]

My SE with decoy makes so little points it might as well be zero, but it's always the most important player in the team. But only when the others realize how to use it to their advantage...

If I could get a Hurricane X my SE wouldn't even need a team...lol

[Core_Commander]

Skorpijon wrote...

So i seem to be offensive cause i moaned about the nerfing. Obviously the topic said nothing about nerfing anything, but players posting talk about it a lot.

Get out of the competative thinking mode already and use your brain. You can take any class, you dont compete against anybody, it doesnt matter insanly if something is easier to play as something else.

Btw most played class is a soldier. How is that possible if infiltrator is so awesome. Or are you telling me that everyone is handicapping themselfs by not playing it?

These topics pop up every time and every time it gets to a point where there are calls for nerf. Several groups are pro or anti nerfing infiltrators. Why do you have such a problem playing with infiltrators? You dont like it take something else. Oh someone rocking a claymore is not feeling the weight as other classes. Why dont you rock a claymore? You dont want to play like that? Well whats the problem then? Jealous about the guy that can?

I really dont see the point. It doesnt break anything yet ppl complain all the time. All the time. As i said in my previous post. Leave it be, use it or dont.

Its a fantasy shooter, some class does something better then others deal with it.

So many words, yet no concrete reson why things that decrease the overall level of challenge shouldn't be brought in line with others besides "you're jealous?" You can break the game too, why don't you?

You don't like challenge? You don't like unbroken games? You don't like variety without the feeling that one's gimping himself by not picking the clearly superior option that ignores several of the games' mechanics? You prefer power creep to even a single nerf ("bringing most of other powers up rather than tactical cloak down)?

[Skorpijon]

Dont know exactly what you mean, but im rooting for the other camp simply to state the obvious. You do not need to change anything in coop game. Doesnt matter if one class is uberalles compared to others. It doesnt matter at all. Ppl just wont play it. It hurts noone if someone with inf scores 150k points. What that means is not that inf is op or that other classes suck, but that other three played worse then the guy with the infilltrator (shothun infiltrators tend to camp spawn points. By the time other players come he outscored them by 2-3 times. If other would camp spawn points aswell the difference would be very small. Can other classes camp spawn points? Yes they can.). 

Now if you feel you dont get your share of fun if someone is using infiltrator, dont play with them. If you think you dont get enough fun playing infiltrator, dont play it. But dont come on your high horse and demand something just because you have an opinion. My opinion is as valid as yours. And my opinion is it doesnt need balancing, i have fun with any class i play even the OP ones (if there are any since OPesness is complety subjective).

The other point i was making is that it doesnt matter in the end. BW will boost or nerf at their discretion. What it bothers me is that some ppl think their opinion is more valid then others. And btw all you calling for nerf on the tactical cloak are all "advanced" player. Which means you utilize every strength the class has to offer. The majority (the one i am voicing for) doesnt have the clue. So they die with infiltrators a lot, even if they are so OP as ppl are saying (and there is a lot more of these players than you/us "advanced" ones).

Modifié par Skorpijon, 19 mai 2012 - 08:07 .

[Core_Commander]

Of course, I respect your right to have an opinion, I was merely asking what is the reasoning behind it (as in, do you hate nerfs on principle, or honestly believe that challenge level of a game can be just thrown to the wolves if the developers happen to slip up balancing something, a "gentlemanly agreement" not to use the win button).

Before multiplayer there were decades of games being single-player only, and what happened on a player's screen stayed on that player's screen and affected no-one at all... yet difficulty, challenge level was an important part of game design regardless. In co-op, it does affect others. If a class is so powerful that it can pretty much solo the game... what is the need for co-op again? If things get too easy, routine sets in, people get bored and leave. "Look how I'm owning them" fun can only last so much. Like I said, power creep is an ugly thing. Changing the cloak's cooldown so that it (and by extension other abilities) are actually affected by weight like every other skill in the game seems reasonable.

Infiltrators don't need to stay cloaked most of the match and let their teammates take all the fire (because that's whathappens when an infiltrator cloaks - all enemies turn their attention to the visible players). As it is now, with two infiltrators, two people are tanking for them, whether they like it or not. With three, you're swamped by every enemy on the map virtually all the time.

Players who like steamrolling can always turn difficulty level down, for people who like the challenge level offered by Gold (and which was totally broken by things like double-hack sabotage or falcon winbombs) there's nowhere to go, besides resorting to tactics like "gonna kick every infiltrator/play with my hand behind my back" etc. I'm glad Bioware seems to understand (for the most part) and keeps the balance between classes being useful and fun to play (I guess "fun" for many players means "effortless killing", yes, for the most part there are many classes for that too) and the game not becoming trivial, destroying the fun for others.

Modifié par Core_Commander, 19 mai 2012 - 09:49 .

[Skorpijon]

Yes to all your points, but i would clarify the boring part as i see it. If you steamroll something it gets bored quickly. Take titans quest or whatever and use the shadowkeeper thing and set the drops to give loads of legendaries and whatnot. You will get bored after the first dungeon. In here its the same. But i would like to emphasize that if you can solo gold and 5 other doesnt mean that other 200k players can. I know i cant and i do score 150k with infiltrator. So for me its not boring, its fun to look what i can do and how fast i can do it.

The boring part is the same for all online games. Ppl good at it master it quicker get bored quicker. How to keep interest in coop game is not by balancing but by giving new stuff, new challenges, new objectives. Balancing will only get you interested for few more weeks then you are bored again.

Modifié par Skorpijon, 19 mai 2012 - 11:15 .

[CHAw]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

no, but it doesn't really fix anything either does it?
At best you have a net gain of zero.
At worst, you cause more problems than you "fix".

Uh... did you miss the part where it would fix the fact that Infiltrators have an unfair cooldown advantage? That, in my opinion, is very much worth the marginal exacerbation of the issue where some weapons are far too heavy for the amount of firepower they offer.

So if I add +10 and -1, I get +9. Sounds good to me.

Which is essentially what I'm trying to get at here.
If you make cloak CD like other classes, you're making another problem that is, arguably much more troublesome to fix than the problem you're trying to fix.

Incorrect.

The problem already exists - some weapons hurt power cooldowns too much to justify carrying them. Making that problem affect Infiltrators does NOT cause a new problem. If anything, it's a step towards fixing it, because now the problem will be more obvious to BioWare.

At the same time, it also fixes the fact that Infiltrators get to ignore cooldowns. So two birds with one stone.

You need to consider an alternative solution other than cooldown is what I'm trying to say.
They exist, and they're viable.

If that's the case, elaborate on them. Provide a solution that fixes both problems.

Because reducing the duration or damage bonus on Tactical Cloak doesn't. At best, it reduces how overpowered it is. But it still doesn't fix anything, because Infiltrators will still have a power that increases their damage potential with close to zero concern for cooldowns.

In fact, I would say that a duration reduction would actually exacerbate the problem by reducing Tactical Cloak's usefulness for non-combat tasks (objectives, revives), giving players even more incentive to specialize in damage and use Tactical Cloak in that fashion.

A damage reduction is a less problematic "solution," but still doesn't actually fix anything. Either the damage bonus is still large enough that Infiltrators retain an unfair advantage in that they simultaneously excel with both weapons and powers while being able to ignore cooldowns, or the damage bonus is negligible enough that Infiltrators aren't really a "gun based class" anymore.

[baldmop]

Infiltrators are not really over powered considering if you look at the weapons of choice many of them use , Mantis / Widows . This is where the balancing should take place more than the classes the weapons need tweaking to match the classes better . Infiltrators are not my favorite class but are fun to play, in a lot of ways they are the weaker class when stuff goes wrong in a match they seem to be the first to die and I am thinking of occasions they get cornered. Besides they are a sniper class and need what edge they have to survive . 3 Rambos and an infy usually winds up getting infy killed in my experience because they need to move more . Many have said it , it is a team thing if the fight stays in front of the infy big score if they are on the run it becomes a sad match for them. The other classes do just as much setting up for the infiltrator than it is the infiltrator actively chasing down the kills