172 réponses à ce sujet

[KDD-0063]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

HanErlik wrote...

.... elves and companions are distinctive...

Does distinctive mean butt-ugly?  Because then I would agree on that.   Why did Bioware go ahead and ruin my elvish fantasy I"ve had since I first hit puberty?   They could have made them more distinctive instead of making them look like anorexic barn yard animals.

I think his post was sarcasm...

[Jalek]

Anyone who really despised the game must be long gone by now anyway, why would they be lurking these forums a year later?

[Will8585]

well seeing as they are a different species, why should the elves just look like short people with large, pointed ears as they did in Origins. They looked much more exotic and interesting in DA2.

[Annie_Dear]

Will8585 wrote...

well seeing as they are a different species, why should the elves just look like short people with large, pointed ears as they did in Origins. They looked much more exotic and interesting in DA2.

Yeah, the also looks anorexic and ugly.

[Rxdiaz]

Annie_Dear wrote...

Will8585 wrote...

well seeing as they are a different species, why should the elves just look like short people with large, pointed ears as they did in Origins. They looked much more exotic and interesting in DA2.

Yeah, the also looks anorexic and ugly.

Even Shrek and Donkey think they're ugly...

[Wozearly]

Jalek wrote...

Anyone who really despised the game must be long gone by now anyway, why would they be lurking these forums a year later?

Personally, I'd say its too strong to say that I "despised" DA2, but I really didn't like the new direction and agree with many of the criticisms raised in this thread. And I'm still 'lurking' here. Why? Because I'm a long-term Bioware fan, and still have a lot of hope for the DA series despite the blip that was DA2.

I'm probably not the only person who feels the same way.

[tishyw]

It was a poor sequel, the only similarity it bore to DA:O was the fact that both games are set in Feralden.

[Merlex]

leeboi2 wrote...

LOLOLOLOL! Graphics got worse? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! DA2 looked this gen at least, Origins looked like it was from 05...

I remember reading the same type of discussion about NWN1 and NWN2, LOL. Now i loved both of them, but seriously...

[TJX2045]

Tommyspa wrote...
The only thing bad about it is asset reuse. Everything else is a matter of opinion.

I agree with this.

From the different locations and different atmospheres in DAO to the reused puzzle-piece style dungeons (take off one piece and add another) and they all use the same map interface.  That was disappointing.

I also wasn't too thrilled about being able to only play human.  If it had started like Mass Effect where it never gave you the choice, it wouldn't have really bothered me.

[Plaintiff]

coles4971 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It doesn't follow the arbitrary rules concocted by the PC-gaming master race.

...what the hell are you even talking about?

Exactly what I said.

[Silfren]

Faerunner wrote...

Will8585 wrote...

well seeing as they are a different species, why should the elves just look like short people with large, pointed ears as they did in Origins. They looked much more exotic and interesting in DA2.

With that logic, dwarves are a different species too and they should look more exotic and interesting than just short and stout people with optional beards (Varric, I am looking at you). Dwarves and elves are both iconic fantasy races, yet DA2 went out of their way to make the former look more human while the later look LESS human.

At least in DAO, people looked equally different. They were short and stout, lithe and pointy-eared, tall and lanky, or horned and giant. In DA2, two races look like regular people (dwarves and humans) while two others look like walking barnyard animals (elves and kossith) for the sake of looking "exotic." Way to show consistency, Bioware.

I agree with your point about Dwarves, but not in the way you think. In Origins, people did NOT look "equally" different.  The whole point about Origins Elves is that they didn't look different at all.  The only thing physically noticeable about elves were their ears, and you often didn't notice that if the elf's hairstyle covered them.  The height was easy to miss, and there was no "litheness" to talk about.  You tended to have to rely on the environmental context to know you were talking to an elf.  

It's a good thing to make the elves, and the other non-humans, look like a distinct race.  The point has always been that they are NOT human, so of course they should not look human.  This applies to dwarves as well, and DA2 didn't make dwarves look all that different from Origins, from what I could tell.  Certainly I don't think anyone could point to DA2 art and claim that the Devs "went out of their way" to make them more human in appearance.

Why does it have to be that they were made to look so different for the "sake" of looking exotic?  You make it sound contrived, but the fact is, in order to make a race NOT look human, it has to look radically different. 

[Realmzmaster]

The Origins elves do not look different from humans at all. Aside from their ears which could be hidden behind a hairstyle there is nothing marking them as elves. Example Iona in the Human noble origin. You cannot tell she is elven. Her hairstyle covers her ears. She can easily pass as human. DA2 elves are distinct from humans. You may like or dislike the artstyle which is fine. The idea is that elves actually look like a different race and not humans with funny ears in which case they could be Vulcan.

[TJX2045]

I have to agree that I like the look of the DA2 elves much more than the DAO ones. And the new Kossith/Qunari.  Still hoping for that chance to play an elf again with their new models...

Modifié par TJX2045, 21 mai 2012 - 07:15 .

[Jerrybnsn]

At least in DA2 we know why elves are beaten and put into chains. They are u-u-ugly! Beat them with a stick! Kill 'em with fire!

[eroeru]

One of the most authoritative source for elves' appearance and nature of today's fantasy is Tolkien's description of them.

DA:O fell very well in line, in DA2 they were aliens - and it moved towards a sci-fy feel. In FANTASY. So, this eclectism was the main reason for it to feel awkward.

Does good fashion sense tell you to wear a kimono and cowboy boots? Or maybe a tunic and flippers?

[Vormaerin]

Where does Tolkien get off on being an expert on what elves have to look like anywhere other than Middle Earth? From what I've read of him, he sure wouldn't claim that.

So the elves in ElfQuest are wrong? What about the elves of Glorantha? Or the Keebler elves? Are they aliens, too?

Just what is sci fi about elves being short, scrawny, and poor instead of tall, muscular, and rich?

[eroeru]

Sci fi might be the wrong word in accuracy, but I was referring to their appearance being reminiscent of an alien. As is in pop culture.

Tolkied didn't have to intentionally want his elves to become a large(est) and (most) relevant part of the nowadays' fantasy dogmatics'. It just was, in fact, so powerful and persuasive a concept and image that it changed the definition of elves vastly from the former "pixie" type. No other work has done the same after him, really.

edit: "other" depictions are not "wrong", and I didn't say anything was wrong. kimonos' with cowboy boots isn't "wrong" per se, it's just in bad taste, as one belongs imagologically to a vastly different setting and frameworks. As do the elves of DA2 - they have characteristics that make them more fit into a sci fi setting.

Other "non-dogmatic" elf-designs are different in their specifics - they can easily not feel so strongly out of place, as in belonging to another aesthetic image.

Modifié par eroeru, 22 mai 2012 - 12:11 .

[Tirigon]

Jalek wrote...

Anyone who really despised the game must be long gone by now anyway, why would they be lurking these forums a year later?

DAO, Mass Effect and the Off Topic forum.

[Realmzmaster]

eroeru wrote...

Sci fi might be the wrong word in accuracy, but I was referring to their appearance being reminiscent of an alien. As is in pop culture.

Tolkied didn't have to intentionally want his elves to become a large(est) and (most) relevant part of the nowadays' fantasy dogmatics'. It just was, in fact, so powerful and persuasive a concept and image that it changed the definition of elves vastly from the former "pixie" type. No other work has done the same after him, really.

edit: "other" depictions are not "wrong", and I didn't say anything was wrong. kimonos' with cowboy boots isn't "wrong" per se, it's just in bad taste, as one belongs imagologically to a vastly different setting and frameworks. As do the elves of DA2 - they have characteristics that make them more fit into a sci fi setting.

Other "non-dogmatic" elf-designs are different in their specifics - they can easily not feel so strongly out of place, as in belonging to another aesthetic image.

How is elves looking different from Tolkien's description in bad taste? Taste is subjective.  There are many depictions of elves that are just as useful as Tolkien's.
Why could a developer not use any one of those or as the DA2 developers did change the elves to look different rather than humans with pointy ears.
In fact Tolkien describes the ears of elves as leaf-shaped not pointy and his elves were over six feet in height. That would make Fenris the correct height for an elf according to Tolkien, but Zervan would be short. The description of pointy ears, wise and more beautiful and shorter than humans with sharper senses and preceptions comes from Dragons and Dungeons not Tolkein.

[hussey 92]

Wozearly wrote...

Jalek wrote...

Anyone who really despised the game must be long gone by now anyway, why would they be lurking these forums a year later?

Personally, I'd say its too strong to say that I "despised" DA2, but I really didn't like the new direction and agree with many of the criticisms raised in this thread. And I'm still 'lurking' here. Why? Because I'm a long-term Bioware fan, and still have a lot of hope for the DA series despite the blip that was DA2.

I'm probably not the only person who feels the same way.

I agree with that.  DA2 wasn't that bad, but the new direction Bioware chose to go in was very disapointing.

[eroeru]

Realmzmaster wrote...

eroeru wrote...

Sci fi might be the wrong word in accuracy, but I was referring to their appearance being reminiscent of an alien. As is in pop culture.

Tolkied didn't have to intentionally want his elves to become a large(est) and (most) relevant part of the nowadays' fantasy dogmatics'. It just was, in fact, so powerful and persuasive a concept and image that it changed the definition of elves vastly from the former "pixie" type. No other work has done the same after him, really.

edit: "other" depictions are not "wrong", and I didn't say anything was wrong. kimonos' with cowboy boots isn't "wrong" per se, it's just in bad taste, as one belongs imagologically to a vastly different setting and frameworks. As do the elves of DA2 - they have characteristics that make them more fit into a sci fi setting.

Other "non-dogmatic" elf-designs are different in their specifics - they can easily not feel so strongly out of place, as in belonging to another aesthetic image.

How is elves looking different from Tolkien's description in bad taste? Taste is subjective.  There are many depictions of elves that are just as useful as Tolkien's.
Why could a developer not use any one of those or as the DA2 developers did change the elves to look different rather than humans with pointy ears.
In fact Tolkien describes the ears of elves as leaf-shaped not pointy and his elves were over six feet in height. That would make Fenris the correct height for an elf according to Tolkien, but Zervan would be short. The description of pointy ears, wise and more beautiful and shorter than humans with sharper senses and preceptions comes from Dragons and Dungeons not Tolkein.

1st off, you didn't quite put your finger on to what I was saying. Naturally, straying from Tolkien doesn't make something in bad taste, it's the qualities (and the relationship of those with the other elements) that make for a uncanny and displaced whole picture.

Analyze for a moment the last sentence in the post you quoted - if it doesn't feel strange and out of place (I'd like to use the word "alien", but I already used that in a different meaning so it might be confusing ), it won't be in worse taste.
Or you can think of what are the important aspects of the analogy with the kimono and cowboy boots. It's not the specific components, it's how they fit in.

Also, Tolkien's elves did not become so influential in the virtue of it being Tolkien, there were other reasons, and infinitely much of them for it to happen. What's important is that it did happen, naturally. This implies it was substantiated with the qualities of the image (qualities as in a neutral meaning of the word).


Are you referring to Dungeons and Dragons? Because if you are, that came much later, and made some (minor) adjustments to the image. Personally, I can't say if it's for the good or for the bad, but as it was influential (though less so than Tolkien), it did have reason for being liked - what's more, it fit perfectly into the setting that D&D had created. D&D also changed the imagery of "elves", with less force and persuasive power than Tolkien, but rather significantly nontheless. 

Dragon Age isn't a distinctive, powerful and original enough concept to try to change things so radically, but what's really important is to NOT bring in elements with strong association to other distinct and noteworthy images/ideas, from a whole different category (/setting).

Mind you, the bug-like creatures in DA2 would fit perfectly in some goofy Star Wars-like setting, and this is exactly what is wrong with them.


Fenris is less problematic in the aspect of the "alien/insect" associations, but he had things wrong with some specific elements, his swords, hair and anatomy and personality did have associations that would be very strange for an elf of Tolkien.




edit: though it is quite easy to imagine the large-eyed hundred-eyed fly-winged Fenris.
"Elves" however IS a concept that should be VERY hard to associate with mosquitos. This because of the actual term's association with qualities like "purity", "beauty" and "immortality", and relations with a particular dark age human/dwarf/hobbit/mix-of-mythology setting. Elves have never been thought of as an alien race. This for good historical reason.



other edits: clarity and grammars

Modifié par eroeru, 22 mai 2012 - 10:58 .

[Realmzmaster]

eroeru wrote...

Snip

So basically what your are buying into is what gamers considere the norm for what elves are perceived as even though Tolkien never descibe them that way.  As far as crpgs and rpgs Dragons and Dungeons is the one that most crpg's description of elves is based on. The description in most user guides use the D & D description.

The elves in DA2 are not out of place or alien. They are alien to some gamers because it does not fit their norm or idea of what an elf should look like. That is a preconception of the gamer that the develoiper does not have to adhere.

DA2 does not have to establish anything, it is a game and an art form at the same time. You may choose to not like the artstyle but that does not make it in bad taste. The point about art is thaqt while it may not appeal to one person it may appeal to another. I like the new look of the elves. I grow weary of the depiction of elves as humans with pointy ears which by their lore they are not.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Plaintiff wrote...

It doesn't follow the arbitrary rules concocted by the PC-gaming master race.

Lol. What a ridiculous statement. Console gamers and PC gamers alike thought the game was ass.

[AkiKishi]

Vormaerin wrote...

Where does Tolkien get off on being an expert on what elves have to look like anywhere other than Middle Earth? From what I've read of him, he sure wouldn't claim that.

So the elves in ElfQuest are wrong? What about the elves of Glorantha? Or the Keebler elves? Are they aliens, too?

Just what is sci fi about elves being short, scrawny, and poor instead of tall, muscular, and rich?

According to one of the DA books elves are considered hot. Either the folks who inhabit that world have a different idea of what hot is, or somewhere between DA , the book and DA2 something changed.

ElfQuest elves would probably fit better with the anime vibe of DA2.