49 réponses à ce sujet

[Blakes 7]

Tell stories within the universe about politics, betrayal etc and make this the thrust of the rpg experience rather than world saving.

"I believe many
smart choices helped us give the sensation that this was a game that had a
large universe, but the player was only seeing a fraction of it. By keeping
the story focused on character interactions and conflicts instead of a great quest
like saving the world, we were able of giving more coherence to the
boundaries of the protagonist's capacity to explore."

That was a quote from the designers of Zeno Clash; a nice little first person brawler and was about how they added a sense of exploration to the world. Given they are a indie team who know how to work with limited resources effectively, I think they have ideas worth considering.

I think dragon ages biggest strength was its character interactions but the plot got in the way more often than not in terms of developing its world.

Here is a link if anyone wants to read the full article
http://www.gamasutra..._zeno_clash.php

So what do you forumites think?
Aren't saving the world stories more for teenagers and less suited to an adult audience who want more mature stories.

Go on, be a rebel don't tow the party line!

[kallikles]

Agreed. Or, if saving the world is absolutely essential for some reason, then at least give us multiple, different ways of doing it.



As it stands, the story is really quite bland.

[Fluffykeith]

I think it depends on whether or not the alternatives would have enough drive to make people want to play. Saving the World storylines solve that easily...stop the evil or everyone dies. But in political style plots it's harder to give the players an immediate reason to care about what's happening.



In addition, combat tends to be a strong component in these games, since a computer based RPG can't deliver the same flexibility if experience that a living GM can, so they tend to fill the sections where you're not standing around talking with lots of ugly monsters for you to hit in the face with bug swords. Even Vampire:Bloodlines fell back on lots of combat, and that game was very politics based.



I'm not saying that politics/betrayal games are a bad idea, just that they'd be harder to do in a way that would appeal across a broad spectrum of RPG fans.

[Blakes 7]

While I agree politics/betrayal games are harder to do I feel that dragon age lacked a personal connection with the plot. Something that politics/betrayal games get you with by nature of their narrative, so I feel if done right there's no reason it won't interest the player.

[Taleroth]

I feel largely the opposite. The game's weakness is its character interaction and attempts at drama, both character drama and political drama. The world it's set in is largely bland and uninteresting, as well. The only real character interaction that stands out are the humorous ones. To really focus on that, they'd be turning it into a comedy.



It's strength is in giving an excuse to get into the dungeon and bash crap over the head. Because dang the bashing is fun.

[Blakes 7]

I get where your coming from Taleroth, the character interaction would of been stronger if all characters had some personal stake in the plot. And yeah, I like me some dungeon bashing - just give me a reason for it to be personal and its all the better.

[Taleroth]

I thought they largely had a personal stake in the plot. And when those personal stakes were at their strongest, it certainly didn't make it more interesting or fun. I stopped caring about Howe or the PC's parents before I was done with the Noble origin.

Only origin character I've given a crap about so far is Jowan. But that's because he hits my "believes in freedom and is willing to fight for it" button, even if he behaved like a wet puppy. Not because he was personally connected to my Mage.

I should stop before I get into my "what this game really needs is consistent themes and to try to inspire the player" spiel.

Modifié par Taleroth, 09 décembre 2009 - 09:45 .

[Blakes 7]

Yeah that was because the story of the howe betrayal isn't the main plot; its a sub plot which only really gets resolved in the end in a tacked on kind of way. These personal stakes would be much better if dragon age was centered around these sub plots instead of kill the monster x at the end.



Yeah I liked Jowans plot also, making his story more extensive throughout the plot based on an origin story was the exception rather than the norm - so if you like characters that fight for something throughout a story, I would like that too.

[Taleroth]

Blakes 7 wrote...

These personal stakes would be much better if dragon age was centered around these sub plots instead of kill the monster x at the end.

I can't find common ground anywhere in that sentence.  I fail to think of a single revenge plot I've ever seen that wasn't lame as hell.

Edit: Except Moby Dick.  But I'll be damned if I want to play as Ahab.

Modifié par Taleroth, 09 décembre 2009 - 09:58 .

[Bibdy]

Fair point. Having an immediate "SAVE THE WORLD, GOD DAMMIT!" storyline makes it difficult to pace the player. A story like that has a kind of urgency, so it feels weird to me, trying to create a mod, which revolves around a little side-story in a village off in the middle of nowhere, when the player has this bigger responsibility looming over his head.

In other words "What the bloody hell are you doing galavanting off into the country-side, helping silly little villagers with their problems, for, when the Darkspawn are knocking on the door?".

With a story like Baldur's Gate 1/2, there's an impending threat, but the world continues to move on without you, so it felt like you could take your time with exploration, questing and all that good RPG stuff, without feeling like you're contradicting with the game's primary story.

Not to mention that the fights with Irenicus and Sarevok were personal!

Modifié par Bibdy, 09 décembre 2009 - 09:59 .

[Coastwatcher]

How do you avoid turning a more personal story from becoming soap opera material, though ?

[Blakes 7]

Well BG1 paced you through the story; weaving your personal story with an increasing sense of a wider threat. Maybe that is one way - you know not explicitly stating the threat from the outset but letting the player work it out while dealing with personal stories.

[Taleroth]

I lost track of the personal story in BG1 when I started investigating iron mines simply for being in my way.

[kevinwastaken]

I love the political intrigue that BioWare weaves so well, and would love more of that and less "save the world" type plots. RPGs have done that to death and BW obviously has the talent to tell a better story.

[LunSei Sleidee]

I agree - I always wanted a fantasy rpg that was more about interesting and complicated politics. For example, imagine if Dragon Age 2 was about, I dunno, the qunari invading Ferelden: in this case, the enemies would NOT be mindless and generically evil darkspawn, but other human-like beings with their own culture and beliefs and emotions. Now, I always wanted an rpg like that. Where the enemy is "alive", and not a soulless dehumanized great evil who unoriginally wants to "take over the world" and who needs to be vanquished without much remorse.

On the other hand, this would make things even too mature. You would end up questioning if you were fighting for the good side. You would realize that the enemy has feelings and people who care about them, too. It would make you wonder if what you are doing is right, and this subtract to the "epicness" and to the "heroism".

Woah have I used a lot of inverted commas here.

Modifié par LunSei Sleidee, 09 décembre 2009 - 10:09 .

[Taleroth]

LunSei Sleidee wrote...

I agree - I always wanted a fantasy rpg that was more about interesting and complicated politics. For example, imagine if Dragon Age 2 was about, I dunno, the qunari invading Ferelden: in this case, the enemies would NOT be mindless and generically evil darkspawn, but other human-like beings with their own culture and beliefs and emotions. Now, I always wanted an rpg like that. Where the enemy is "alive", and not a soulless dehumanized great evil who unoriginally wants to "take over the world" and who needs to be vanquished without much remorse.

On the other hand, this would make things even too mature. You would end up questioning if you were fighting for the good side. You would realize that the enemy has feelings and people who care about them, too. It would make you wonder if what you are doing is right, and this subtract to the "epicness" and to the "heroism".

It's actually much easier than you think.

Are they invading?
Are they killing people?
They're bad.  It doesn't matter what their philosophy is.  If they burned down your town and killed your parents on the way in, then there's nothing to question.

If they didn't do that, there's no reason for your character to leave home.

Modifié par Taleroth, 09 décembre 2009 - 10:12 .

[LunSei Sleidee]

Taleroth wrote...

It's actually much easier than you think.

Are they invading?
Are they killing people?
They're bad.  It doesn't matter what their philosophy is.  If they burned down your town and killed your parents on the way in, then there's nothing to question.

If they didn't do that, there's no reason for your character to leave home.

It can get much more complex than that. Dragon Age already gave some glimpses of this in some sidequests, but I can't spoil it here (unlike what some people do all the time, writing spoilers in THIS forum section grmph T_T; ).

A fictional scenario: some invading warrior slaughters your wife and son. You seek revenge. You find out that apparently bloodthirsty warrior has a loving family himself. Maybe he fought because he had to support his own family, or maybe, he was brainwashed into not realizing people like you have rights too, or maybe yes, he was a bastard in battle. But in any case, he too has a family he loves and who loves him. What do you do? Maybe you kill him to seek revenge. If you play as an evil character, maybe you even slaughter his whole family. So, you had your revenge, and yes, that guy in a way was definitely evil, but..... there's a but.

With darkspawn, there's no "but". They don't have complex personalities so that the cold murderer for someone can be the loving parent for someone else. I wish for an rpg with enemies that are alive. And don't tell me it gets as easy as "I am going to get revenge against them so I am entitled to become as evil and nasty as they are". Because that, already, would bring interesting dilemmas.

[Blakes 7]

Yeah thats a revenge plot, adding politics to it would take something additional to just wanting to kill them. Kind of sounds like the plot to Conan the barbarian which I rather liked. And the snake guy had an interesting philosophy; flesh greater than steel etc. I'm fine with either revenge or politics based plots but I would prefer both if possible.

I like the sort of quest like in bg1 where your hunting down this guy that murdered his family

- seems straightforward until you discovered the sword was cursed, do you attempt to redeem him or punish him? You will know this to be true if you investigated the story, and your own morality is your compass <_<

Modifié par Blakes 7, 09 décembre 2009 - 10:23 .

[Taleroth]

LunSei Sleidee wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

It's actually much easier than you think.

Are they invading?
Are they killing people?
They're bad.  It doesn't matter what their philosophy is.  If they burned down your town and killed your parents on the way in, then there's nothing to question.

If they didn't do that, there's no reason for your character to leave home.

It can get much more complex than that. Dragon Age already gave some glimpses of this in some sidequests, but I can't spoil it here (unlike what some people do all the time, writing spoilers in THIS forum section grmph T_T; ).

A fictional scenario: some invading warrior slaughters your wife and son. You seek revenge. You find out that apparently bloodthirsty warrior has a loving family himself. Maybe he fought because he had to support his own family, or maybe, he was brainwashed into not realizing people like you have rights too, or maybe yes, he was a bastard in battle. But in any case, he too has a family he loves and who loves him. What do you do? Maybe you kill him to seek revenge. If you play as an evil character, maybe you even slaughter his whole family. So, you had your revenge, and yes, that guy in a way was definitely evil, but..... there's a but.

That's a pretty weak "but."  Nobody cares about a murderer's family.  Especially not his victim.

Anora doesn't make anyone sympathetic to Loghain.

The most it does is make one more consider mercy, not question the motive to fight.  Nor is this addition somehow inherently more interesting.

If, by some miracle, one actually managed to get the player to answer the call, but then question the fight, the only thing you're doing is confusing the player.  You've ruined their motivation to progress the story at all.  So they either just start going through the motions or, if they really care, shut the game off never to play again.

Modifié par Taleroth, 09 décembre 2009 - 10:31 .

[bjdbwea]

Saving the world is just fine. It's a good theme for an RPG. You can (and should!) always add as much character interaction and personal involvement as you like (or rather as much as the developers possibly can).

Modifié par bjdbwea, 09 décembre 2009 - 10:29 .

[Blakes 7]

I wonder what would be wrong with a save your family type plot set in the big wide post apocalyse world where you are constantly on the run from bandits and such. I mean save the world is fine and all, I would like to see something more original story wise. Getting food day by day is a challenge; moving from location to location to a mythical safe haven etc could be the goal.

[Taleroth]

Blakes 7 wrote...

I wonder what would be wrong with a save your family type plot set in the big wide post apocalyse world where you are constantly on the run from bandits and such. I mean save the world is fine and all, I would like to see something more original story wise. Getting food day by day is a challenge; moving from location to location to a mythical safe haven etc could be the goal.

You're going to struggle to get a player to even care about his family.  While all of us care about the world, we live there.  Or our own lives.  You can make it work on just keeping the player's character alive, numerous games have done that before.  Hell, that's one of the two popular Calls.

[Blakes 7]

I see what you mean there - players do like to run off and do there own thing. Which one of the Calls did you mean?

[Astorax]

Guys, watch your spoilers please.



Moving to the spoilers forum.

[Taleroth]

Call to Adventure