336 réponses à ce sujet

[Gexora]

mauro2222 wrote...

Reaper plan =/= synthesis.

Regardless of that, synthesis is still awful.

Well, it might seem awful if you have really strict moral code.
I just prefer to think of it as really, really retarded (especially the way it is presented now)

[MisterJB]

Sisterofshane wrote...
And what I'm reading here is that Saren promoted Synthesis, and it is originally a Reaper idea.  You're not making the case for synthesis being the best option.

The Synthesis the Crucible created is entirely different from the Reaper's solution. The results are what we should use to judge that particular option, not who may or may not have supported it.

[Sisterofshane]

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
And what I'm reading here is that Saren promoted Synthesis, and it is originally a Reaper idea.  You're not making the case for synthesis being the best option.

The Synthesis the Crucible created is entirely different from the Reaper's solution. The results are what we should use to judge that particular option, not who may or may not have supported it.

Shepard doesn't have any results to "judge".  The decision to Synthesise or not should then be made based upon all of the available data we have to draw from, including who/what may have supported those endings and why they supported them.

Despite whether Saren knew the true motives of the Reapers, he still supported a form of Synthesis.  We know he likely supported it because he was indoctrinated.  We know that the Reapers did indeed keep Synthesised beings (the keepers and the Collectors), which means Saren's motivations were not entirely false.  These are all perfectly valid observations that make the Synthesis choice suspect.

Synthesis also has good things about it, I'm sure, but the writers crapped on it with ambiguity so that we can't really pinpoint what the good things are.

[Gexora]

Sisterofshane wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
And what I'm reading here is that Saren promoted Synthesis, and it is originally a Reaper idea.  You're not making the case for synthesis being the best option.

The Synthesis the Crucible created is entirely different from the Reaper's solution. The results are what we should use to judge that particular option, not who may or may not have supported it.

Shepard doesn't have any results to "judge".  The decision to Synthesise or not should then be made based upon all of the available data we have to draw from, including who/what may have supported those endings and why they supported them.

Despite whether Saren knew the true motives of the Reapers, he still supported a form of Synthesis.  We know he likely supported it because he was indoctrinated.  We know that the Reapers did indeed keep Synthesised beings (the keepers and the Collectors), which means Saren's motivations were not entirely false.  These are all perfectly valid observations that make the Synthesis choice suspect.

Synthesis also has good things about it, I'm sure, but the writers crapped on it with ambiguity so that we can't really pinpoint what the good things are.

I believe I have adressed some of the issues that bother you in my previous posts on SAREN IS PROSYNTHESIS argument. Should I repost them once again so you won't have to dig through the whole thread or you are not interested? 

[mauro2222]

Gexora wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Reaper plan =/= synthesis.

Regardless of that, synthesis is still awful.

Well, it might seem awful if you have really strict moral code.
I just prefer to think of it as really, really retarded (especially the way it is presented now)

Oh, besides of being something forced, I agree that's stupid and lacks reasoning and well science, but... after what Bioware did with the Prothean "Cosmic Imperative" it was really easy to come to the conclusion that their knowledge of evolution is very limited.

Modifié par mauro2222, 06 juin 2012 - 08:42 .

[Sisterofshane]

Gexora wrote...

I believe I have adressed some of the issues that bother you in my previous posts on SAREN IS PROSYNTHESIS argument. Should I repost them once again so you won't have to dig through the whole thread or you are not interested? 

I was in the argument, I believe that the logic behind all of the "Saren does not believe in synthesis" seems to rest on the fact that the Synthesis choice comes from the Crucible and not the Reapers, therefore the concept of it never existed before that point.

If you have something that I may have missed, by all means link me to the posts.

[Gexora]

mauro2222 wrote...

Gexora wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Reaper plan =/= synthesis.

Regardless of that, synthesis is still awful.

Well, it might seem awful if you have really strict moral code.
I just prefer to think of it as really, really retarded (especially the way it is presented now)

Oh, besides of being something forced, I agree that's stupid and lacks reasoning and well science, but... after what Bioware did with the Prothean "Cosmic Imperative" it was really easy to come to the conclusion that their knowledge of evolution is very limited.

Well, so is, apparently, their fanbase's
One man I have already referenced in this thread (and not in the favorable light) said the following infamous line when confronted with question about some lore-breaking plot-points "It's magic! We don't have to explain magic!''. I believe when writing the ending Bioware was following his footsteps

[Gexora]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Gexora wrote...

I believe I have adressed some of the issues that bother you in my previous posts on SAREN IS PROSYNTHESIS argument. Should I repost them once again so you won't have to dig through the whole thread or you are not interested? 

I was in the argument, I believe that the logic behind all of the "Saren does not believe in synthesis" seems to rest on the fact that the Synthesis choice comes from the Crucible and not the Reapers, therefore the concept of it never existed before that point.

If you have something that I may have missed, by all means link me to the posts.

Hang on, hang on. There's been several instances where I misunderstood what people were saying because apparently my english sucks so I want to get this straight before I answer
Do you think that I (and all other people who support this position) believe that drawing a connection between Saren and Synthesis is stupid because Synthesis only became possible after the Crucible was built? Because that's like SO FAR AWAY from all the points I was trying to convey I should be immediately fired for having such poor communication skills

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Taboo:
There are people who support Synthesis because it removes diversity in their eyes? Ugh. That's unpleasant. Why haven't I run into those yet?

Ugh, no I'm talking about people who think Synthesis is good because it makes everyone exactly the same. My eyes are the same as yours and my thoughts and beliefs are the same.

I should have explained more.

They think it's just like Brave New World. 

[mauro2222]

Gexora wrote...

Well, so is, apparently, their fanbase's
One man I have already referenced in this thread (and not in the favorable light) said the following infamous line when confronted with question about some lore-breaking plot-points "It's magic! We don't have to explain magic!''. I believe when writing the ending Bioware was following his footsteps

I'm glad this isn't a fantasy game then

[Sisterofshane]

Gexora wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Gexora wrote...

I believe I have adressed some of the issues that bother you in my previous posts on SAREN IS PROSYNTHESIS argument. Should I repost them once again so you won't have to dig through the whole thread or you are not interested? 

I was in the argument, I believe that the logic behind all of the "Saren does not believe in synthesis" seems to rest on the fact that the Synthesis choice comes from the Crucible and not the Reapers, therefore the concept of it never existed before that point.

If you have something that I may have missed, by all means link me to the posts.

Hang on, hang on. There's been several instances where I misunderstood what people were saying because apparently my english sucks so I want to get this straight before I answer
Do you think that I (and all other people who support this position) believe that drawing a connection between Saren and Synthesis is stupid because Synthesis only became possible after the Crucible was built? Because that's like SO FAR AWAY from all the points I was trying to convey I should be immediately fired for having such poor communication skills

No, (sorry for my hyperbole) but a lot of the disagreement in the SAREN WAS PROSYNTHESIS thread stems from that belief.  Another point to make is that many believe that the end point is not the same because the motivation was different (Saren promoted it as a means of servitude while Shepard makes the decision on a desire to "level" the playing field.).  It sadly all boils down to a lack of information given to us in the endings, and we therefore are forced to draw our own conclusionsbased on what we think happened.

Like I said, if I missed a specific point that is different from the above, please point it out to me.

[Fox In The Box]

Putting aside all the other weird things involved with it, Synthesis makes me wonder even more about the reasoning behind the Starkid's actions. If it knew that merging synthetic and organic life was even possible, and that it would not have any severe long-term consequences, and that there would be peace and that it wouldn't have to sacrifice its reapers in their war on organics, why didn't it just... do that in the first place? Instead of committing intergalactic genocide every 50 K years for who knows how long?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Fox In The Box wrote...

Putting aside all the other weird things involved with it, Synthesis makes me wonder even more about the reasoning behind the Starkid's actions. If it knew that merging synthetic and organic life was even possible, and that it would not have any severe long-term consequences, and that there would be peace and that it wouldn't have to sacrifice its reapers in their war on organics, why didn't it just... do that in the first place? Instead of committing intergalactic genocide every 50 K years for who knows how long?

The Crucible makes it possible.

[Fox In The Box]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Fox In The Box wrote...

Putting aside all the other weird things involved with it, Synthesis makes me wonder even more about the reasoning behind the Starkid's actions. If it knew that merging synthetic and organic life was even possible, and that it would not have any severe long-term consequences, and that there would be peace and that it wouldn't have to sacrifice its reapers in their war on organics, why didn't it just... do that in the first place? Instead of committing intergalactic genocide every 50 K years for who knows how long?

The Crucible makes it possible.

They have more advanced technology than anyone. They could have built their own Crucible. If they knew synthesis was possible, they must have done some research on it at some point.

[Sisterofshane]

Fox In The Box wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Fox In The Box wrote...

Putting aside all the other weird things involved with it, Synthesis makes me wonder even more about the reasoning behind the Starkid's actions. If it knew that merging synthetic and organic life was even possible, and that it would not have any severe long-term consequences, and that there would be peace and that it wouldn't have to sacrifice its reapers in their war on organics, why didn't it just... do that in the first place? Instead of committing intergalactic genocide every 50 K years for who knows how long?

The Crucible makes it possible.

They have more advanced technology than anyone. They could have built their own Crucible. If they knew synthesis was possible, they must have done some research on it at some point.

I think what you missing is Shepard, who is unique to all cycles.  It's the combination of Shepard and the crucible that makes Synthesis possible.

[Taboo]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Fox In The Box wrote...

Putting aside all the other weird things involved with it, Synthesis makes me wonder even more about the reasoning behind the Starkid's actions. If it knew that merging synthetic and organic life was even possible, and that it would not have any severe long-term consequences, and that there would be peace and that it wouldn't have to sacrifice its reapers in their war on organics, why didn't it just... do that in the first place? Instead of committing intergalactic genocide every 50 K years for who knows how long?

The Crucible makes it possible.

Yes, you simply have to believe it within the context of the narrative.

We had a discussion about the Catalyst being a VI and not an AI. That is to say the reason he hasn't made improvements is he is not capable of indivdual though. As such, he presents his fallacy and expects us to believe it.

This is what he says of the singularity:

A is possible/probable therefore A is absolute

This is a logical fallacy. Regardless of how intelligent he is he cannot seem to figure out that what he is saying is not logical.

He isn't lying, but he isn't correct in his reasoning either.

The introduction of the Crucible makes it possible for him to consider something else, but not in regards to the fallacy he presents.

[Fox In The Box]

Sisterofshane wrote...

I think what you missing is Shepard, who is unique to all cycles.  It's the combination of Shepard and the crucible that makes Synthesis possible.

How could they have known that Shepard, especially, is what makes synthesis possible if they have never had any successful attempts at making synthesis possible before?

[KingZayd]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Fox In The Box wrote...

Putting aside all the other weird things involved with it, Synthesis makes me wonder even more about the reasoning behind the Starkid's actions. If it knew that merging synthetic and organic life was even possible, and that it would not have any severe long-term consequences, and that there would be peace and that it wouldn't have to sacrifice its reapers in their war on organics, why didn't it just... do that in the first place? Instead of committing intergalactic genocide every 50 K years for who knows how long?

The Crucible makes it possible.

So these races that the reapers easily wiped out were capable of making this crucible which makes synthesis possible, and the Starchild wasn't? and also, we're expected to believe that one of the earlier cycles decided that what an anti-reaper weapon really needed was an option for synthesis? why?

[Sisterofshane]

Fox In The Box wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

I think what you missing is Shepard, who is unique to all cycles.  It's the combination of Shepard and the crucible that makes Synthesis possible.

How could they have known that Shepard, especially, is what makes synthesis possible if they have never had any successful attempts at making synthesis possible before?

Let me put it this way - if it was Anderson, he wouldn't have been given the choice of Synthesis.  The Catalyst wouldn't have even known it was possible.

The crucible wasn't built exclusively for an individual like Shepard, but Shepard is still what makes it possible.  There is no Synthesis without Shepard.

[ghost9191]

wasn't talking about the op, was talking in general. Synthesis is the idea you fought against in the first game, saren became synthetic/organic, what you wish to (well not sure you) to achieve with synthesis.  You are being told by a reaper again that synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution, something sovereign said in the first. so i do believe it is the same thing just a prettier version. It makes a new dna so even if races are different the ppl of those races will be the same. so yeah it doesn't completly destroy deversity but it comes pretty close. And saying that the only way to have peace (which the catalyst never says i mean it never says there will be peace) is by destroying what makes people unique is probably not that good of a message

IF you are at the final stage of evoulution then where do you go from there? I mean do you go all synthetic to make yourself better? become like the collectors, everything inside you replaced by tech. Collectors are a nice example of synthesis, starts out slow but then in time completly replaced by tech and mindless. Your shepard can chose synthesis that is fine, s/he is yours but don't think that synthesis is the only optino that doesn't go against your ideals is wrong. so i think anyways. All options are morally wrong, just gotta find which one is easiest to live with, which control and synthesis are pretty damn easy considering your character dies in those, could die in destroy also but only if you don't have enough ems. so guess i am just saying that in my opinion synthesis and control are easy answers, your character doesn't have to deal with the ramifications of your actions. easymode i guess

Modifié par ghost9191, 06 juin 2012 - 10:02 .

[Fox In The Box]

Sisterofshane wrote...


Let me put it this way - if it was Anderson, he wouldn't have been given the choice of Synthesis.  The Catalyst wouldn't have even known it was possible.

The crucible wasn't built exclusively for an individual like Shepard, but Shepard is still what makes it possible.  There is no Synthesis without Shepard.

But that makes no sense. The Catalyst isn't God. There is no way for it to instinctively realize it could create a new general framework for DNA for both synthetics and organics, and that this would lead to peace. No matter how advanced they are, they would have had to conduct some seriously heavy research to even realize it was even possible, which indicates that they must have had all the pieces necessary for it at some point. Even an individual like Shepard.

An analogy; you can't build a functional computer without first finding out how you build a functional computer - and when you do find out, you'll have know what components you need to make it work.

[T-Raks]

Thanks for letting me down Shep! I had hope you would fight for the goal that every organic that finds a way to stay alive will be able to decide about its own future, but I guess I was wrong.

[Sisterofshane]

Fox In The Box wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...


Let me put it this way - if it was Anderson, he wouldn't have been given the choice of Synthesis.  The Catalyst wouldn't have even known it was possible.

The crucible wasn't built exclusively for an individual like Shepard, but Shepard is still what makes it possible.  There is no Synthesis without Shepard.

But that makes no sense. The Catalyst isn't God. There is no way for it to instinctively realize it could create a new general framework for DNA for both synthetics and organics, and that this would lead to peace. No matter how advanced they are, they would have had to conduct some seriously heavy research to even realize it was even possible, which indicates that they must have had all the pieces necessary for it at some point. Even an individual like Shepard.

An analogy; you can't build a functional computer without first finding out how you build a functional computer - and when you do find out, you'll have know what components you need to make it work.

Your analogy is incorrect because it assumes that the goal is to build a machine capable fo synthesis.  It was niether the goal of the Catalyst nor organics to build that option into the crucible, but it is possible for the option to exist.

A better analogy would be that you are building a computer that is meant for work purposes, but by applying the appropriate software, the same computer can become capable of running games.

[TheClonesLegacy]

Synthesis is Playing God...
that is all

[MisterJB]

ghost9191 wrote...
Synthesis is the idea you fought against in the first game,

What you fought against in the first game was a turian leading an army of geth to attack human colonies and, later. a sentient startship that destroyed the previous civilizations.
 

saren became synthetic/organic,

So did Shepard.

what you wish to (well not sure you) to achieve with synthesis.

There is nothing inherently wrong with using technology to improve oneself.

You are being told by a reaper again that synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution,

Calling it "the pinnacle of evolution" is stupid but I don't need the Catalyst to tell me if we could adapt their technology, it could greatly improve the quality of life of everyone else in the galaxy.
 

something sovereign said in the first.

The Ilusive Man tells me he wants to advance humanity. Does that mean advancing humanity is wrong?

so i do believe it is the same thing just a prettier version.

And by prettier, you mean: Completely different results and ways of achieving them.
 

It makes a new dna so even if races are different the ppl of those races will be the same. so yeah it doesn't completly destroy deversity but it comes pretty close. And saying that the only way to have peace (which the catalyst never says i mean it never says there will be peace) is by destroying what makes people unique is probably not that good of a message

Not even close. The different races still look quite distinct thus, any change done was meant only to incorporate the new techhnologies. At worst, that simply means all races will share one trait now. However, all life on Earth is based on DNA and there is great diversity.