Don't ever think I think less of you because you choose Synthesis. That is your right. I only hope you can accord me the same courtesy, and not think less of me because I have a preferred ending as well.
The Star Gazer scene takes place ten thousand years in the future, our singularity has not happened in that time frame. I see no reason to enact Synthesis if I can allow such a large grace period. I do not believe it is ethical to enact a permanent change on the Galaxy like one does in Control or Synthesis.
In Destroy, everything will return to a state pre-Reapers and society will be able to move on from there. It isn't my job to dictate how life evolves.
Why my Shepard will choose Synthesis
Débuté par
Gexora
, mai 17 2012 06:35
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#277
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 04:01
Darth_Trethon
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And this is the finest example of people just closing their eyes, covering their ears and screaming IT to avoid complete and undeniable facts that when looked at aren't about the IT or even tied to it in any way.....just facts defining the situation you are in. Nobody since day one has been able to say a single thing against them and even though they clearly show the only viable choice many still deny them.....
Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 07 juin 2012 - 04:05 .
#278
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 04:03
Taboo
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Complete and undeniable facts?
What are you even talking about?
What are you even talking about?
#279
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 04:06
Darth_Trethon
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Taboo-XX wrote...
Complete and undeniable facts?
What are you even talking about?
See my last post.
#280
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 04:07
Vigilant111
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Darth_Trethon wrote...
And this is the finest example of people just closing their eyes, covering their ears and screaming IT to avoid complete and undeniable facts that when looked at aren't about the IT or even tied to it in any way.....just facts defining the situation you are in. Nobody since day one has been able to say a single thing against them and even though they clearly show the only viable choice many still deny them.....
That's too far
#281
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 04:10
Darth_Trethon
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Vigilant111 wrote...
Darth_Trethon wrote...
And this is the finest example of people just closing their eyes, covering their ears and screaming IT to avoid complete and undeniable facts that when looked at aren't about the IT or even tied to it in any way.....just facts defining the situation you are in. Nobody since day one has been able to say a single thing against them and even though they clearly show the only viable choice many still deny them.....
That's too far
Care to elaborate?
#282
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 04:11
Gexora
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I do not think less of you, of course. Oh and BTW I also do not believe in technical singularityTaboo-XX wrote...
Don't ever think I think less of you because you choose Synthesis. That is your right. I only hope you can accord me the same courtesy, and not think less of me because I have a preferred ending as well.
The Star Gazer scene takes place ten thousand years in the future, our singularity has not happened in that time frame. I see no reason to enact Synthesis if I can allow such a large grace period. I do not believe it is ethical to enact a permanent change on the Galaxy like one does in Control or Synthesis.
In Destroy, everything will return to a state pre-Reapers and society will be able to move on from there. It isn't my job to dictate how life evolves.
It's just it's weird you went from debating synthesis with me to sudden "it doesn't matter anymoe BSN HAS CHOSEN". Why? I mean I understand if you are tired of arguing (though it would make me feel sad since I have been enjoying this debate very much, you are onу of the best vis-a-vis I have ever had, and I do law for living), but that was drastic change of the.... how can I phrase it? tone of your comments.
@Darth_Trethon, I will get back to you in a second. Please note that real life sometimes interferes with internet debates, however weird it may sound
#283
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 04:25
Vigilant111
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Darth_Trethon wrote...
Vigilant111 wrote...
Darth_Trethon wrote...
And this is the finest example of people just closing their eyes, covering their ears and screaming IT to avoid complete and undeniable facts that when looked at aren't about the IT or even tied to it in any way.....just facts defining the situation you are in. Nobody since day one has been able to say a single thing against them and even though they clearly show the only viable choice many still deny them.....
That's too far
Care to elaborate?
No all destroy supporters scream IT
What are these complete and undeniable facts u are talking about? u meant those fanfic stuff?
What is this ONLY viable choice again? people didn't deny it, people just didn't like it cos they didn't know much about it
#284
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 04:39
Darth_Trethon
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No fanfic here. TIM clearly forces Shep to shoot Anderson against his will. The reapers control TIM and being untold hundreds of million of years(even billions of years maybe) old and with technology far surpassing anything we have it's quite logical to expect the can do whatever TIM can and then some. All of that plus what we've seen them do to all the other species from the collectors to all the husks screams that control and synthesis are traps regardless.Vigilant111 wrote...
No all destroy supporters scream IT
What are these complete and undeniable facts u are talking about? u meant those fanfic stuff?
What is this ONLY viable choice again? people didn't deny it, people just didn't like it cos they didn't know much about it
Even the catalyst leaves the if in there when he talks about Shep controlling the reapers. As for machine DNA....well the reapers theselves are made of organic matter....another undeniable fact....so they already are half organic so to speak. So who's being altered here really......altering organics into machines is what they've been doing since they came into existence.....yes another undeniable fact. Choosing synthesis is just asking for it. Oh and the crucible is powered by a reaper artifact.....you know it, undeniable fact....and we had no idea what it might even do until the reaper god told us.....yeah, that too is undeniable.
Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 07 juin 2012 - 04:54 .
#285
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 04:47
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Consent to do something is very important to a liberal democracy. You shouldn't have to option in to something like this if you don't want to. You say you study law, yes? My father doesn't do criminal law but he does do medical malpractice. He's shared on more than one occasion some horror stories about things that have happened to clients. Sometimes they go in for surgery and get something MORE than they asked for. The Doctor has no right to do that to them.
I for example, had my tonsils removed some years ago and even against the doctors urging I said that I didn't want to have my uvula removed. Why? Because I needed the tonsils removed, nothing more. That right to consent to an "improvement" is mine and mine alone.
I can certainly see how someone would choose to enact Synthesis to better the Galaxy, but I cannot justify it for the simple fact that it affects EVERYTHING. Every piece of grass, every cell, every dog and cat now has whatever Synthesis does in them.
That's an enormous change and one I cannot justify on billions upon billions of beings without their consent.
I for example, had my tonsils removed some years ago and even against the doctors urging I said that I didn't want to have my uvula removed. Why? Because I needed the tonsils removed, nothing more. That right to consent to an "improvement" is mine and mine alone.
I can certainly see how someone would choose to enact Synthesis to better the Galaxy, but I cannot justify it for the simple fact that it affects EVERYTHING. Every piece of grass, every cell, every dog and cat now has whatever Synthesis does in them.
That's an enormous change and one I cannot justify on billions upon billions of beings without their consent.
#286
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 04:55
Vigilant111
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Darth_Trethon wrote...
No fanfic here. TIM clearly forces Shep to shoot Anderson against his will. The reapers control TIM and being untold hundreds of million of years(even billions of years maybe) old and with technology far surpassing anything we have it's quite logical to expect the can do whatever TIM can and then some. All of that plus what we've seen them do to all the other species from the collectors to all the husks screams that control and synthesis are traps regardless.Vigilant111 wrote...
No all destroy supporters scream IT
What are these complete and undeniable facts u are talking about? u meant those fanfic stuff?
What is this ONLY viable choice again? people didn't deny it, people just didn't like it cos they didn't know much about it
Even the catalyst leaves the if in there when he talks about Shep controlling the reapers. As for machine DNA....well the reapers theselves are made of organic matter....another undeniable fact....so they already are half organic so to speak. So who's being altered here really......altering organics into machines is what they've been doing since they came into existence.....yes another undeniable fact. Choosing synthesis is just asking for it.
Storing the memories of organics does not immediately means they ARE organic, and don't they view organics as weak and chaotic?
If they are organic from ascending those worthy of ascension, u know, the best of the best in all the races that perished, wouldn't they be influenced by morals, that they would stop harvesting due to good conscience?
#287
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 04:58
Darth_Trethon
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all powered by a reaper artifact and we never had the slightest clue what it might do untill the reaper god told us. Change organic matter into synthetic DNA what do you know? The reapers' favorite hobby.....please tell me you're not going to try to deny this.Taboo-XX wrote...
Consent to do something is very important to a liberal democracy. You shouldn't have to option in to something like this if you don't want to. You say you study law, yes? My father doesn't do criminal law but he does do medical malpractice. He's shared on more than one occasion some horror stories about things that have happened to clients. Sometimes they go in for surgery and get something MORE than they asked for. The Doctor has no right to do that to them.
I for example, had my tonsils removed some years ago and even against the doctors urging I said that I didn't want to have my uvula removed. Why? Because I needed the tonsils removed, nothing more. That right to consent to an "improvement" is mine and mine alone.
I can certainly see how someone would choose to enact Synthesis to better the Galaxy, but I cannot justify it for the simple fact that it affects EVERYTHING. Every piece of grass, every cell, every dog and cat now has whatever Synthesis does in them.
That's an enormous change and one I cannot justify on billions upon billions of beings without their consent.
#288
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 05:03
Darth_Trethon
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Vigilant111 wrote...
Storing the memories of organics does not immediately means they ARE organic, and don't they view organics as weak and chaotic?
If they are organic from ascending those worthy of ascension, u know, the best of the best in all the races that perished, wouldn't they be influenced by morals, that they would stop harvesting due to good conscience?
Clearly not....they've done it for so long without ever getting teary-eyes. Our goal is survival not to understand them.
#289
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 05:06
Taboo
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Darth_Trethon wrote...
all powered by a reaper artifact and we never had the slightest clue what it might do untill the reaper god told us. Change organic matter into synthetic DNA what do you know? The reapers' favorite hobby.....please tell me you're not going to try to deny this.
Uh, I think you're being a bit hyperbolic here. I don't like Synthesis, and I've more than given my reasons why but it does NOT change people into husks.
You should be able to infer that from the scene on the Jungle planet.
The Reaper's "goal" was to preserve organics and turn them into a flag ship. They were'nt Synthesizing anything. Saren was a puppet, nothing more and Sovreign simply gave him upgrades to further his own goals.
#290
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 05:17
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Maybe not husks but then again the collectors were no prothean husks either and still looked mostly prothean and capable of performing complex tasks. They wouldn't use the crucible to obtain simple husks. They'd want to clean up and prepare for the next cycle I think.Taboo-XX wrote...
Darth_Trethon wrote...
all powered by a reaper artifact and we never had the slightest clue what it might do untill the reaper god told us. Change organic matter into synthetic DNA what do you know? The reapers' favorite hobby.....please tell me you're not going to try to deny this.
Uh, I think you're being a bit hyperbolic here. I don't like Synthesis, and I've more than given my reasons why but it does NOT change people into husks.
You should be able to infer that from the scene on the Jungle planet.
The Reaper's "goal" was to preserve organics and turn them into a flag ship. They were'nt Synthesizing anything. Saren was a puppet, nothing more and Sovreign simply gave him upgrades to further his own goals.
#291
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 05:18
Vigilant111
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Darth_Trethon wrote...
Vigilant111 wrote...
Storing the memories of organics does not immediately means they ARE organic, and don't they view organics as weak and chaotic?
If they are organic from ascending those worthy of ascension, u know, the best of the best in all the races that perished, wouldn't they be influenced by morals, that they would stop harvesting due to good conscience?
Clearly not....they've done it for so long without ever getting teary-eyes. Our goal is survival not to understand them.
I thought u were preaching about reapers being organic and therefore we should take their advice cos they are part organics right?
U don't need them to survive, the very fact that u survived on the citadel is a result of FIGHTING and defeating the reapers, they fuelled your will to survive with their atrocities
#292
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 05:23
Taboo
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Why. Why would The Catalyst give Shepard the other options if he was secretly Harbinger.
He isn't lying to you, but he IS a VI that is stuck in a loop. He presents a fallacy, there is a difference. This is why he gives you the other options. If he was an AI, he would simply trick you into Synthesis.
He presents what his best option is, only because it best suits his programming.
He isn't lying to you, but he IS a VI that is stuck in a loop. He presents a fallacy, there is a difference. This is why he gives you the other options. If he was an AI, he would simply trick you into Synthesis.
He presents what his best option is, only because it best suits his programming.
#293
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 05:26
Darth_Trethon
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I thought u were preaching about reapers being organic and therefore we should take their advice cos they are part organics right?
U don't need them to survive, the very fact that u survived on the citadel is a result of FIGHTING and defeating the reapers, they fuelled your will to survive with their atrocities
Wait I did what now? You must have me confused with somebody else. I argue that synthesis and control are reaper tricks and destroy is the way to go.
Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 07 juin 2012 - 05:27 .
#294
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 05:27
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They all resolve the issue. All of them.
The Catalyst has an opinion, but he doesn't force you do anything. He's a VI.
The Catalyst has an opinion, but he doesn't force you do anything. He's a VI.
#295
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 05:34
Darth_Trethon
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Taboo-XX wrote...
Why. Why would The Catalyst give Shepard the other options if he was secretly Harbinger.
He isn't lying to you, but he IS a VI that is stuck in a loop. He presents a fallacy, there is a difference. This is why he gives you the other options. If he was an AI, he would simply trick you into Synthesis.
He presents what his best option is, only because it best suits his programming.
We know he represents reaper intent regardless....their station. As for why he presents the choice.....maybe it cannot hide it maybe it never expected a non-reaper thrall to reach it or maybe the protheans messing with the keepers and station have lifted a data restriction in its programing....all assuming it actually is just a VI. But then it must be able to read Shep's mind and know about the kid and it must have a reason for taking that shape....likely manipulation.
#296
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 06:15
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If he's a VI he is incapable of independent thought. He's a program that has a set task. This would explain why he hasn't taken in any new data for millions of years. He doesn't see the need to.
He represents an ideal, but only one that is sustainable so as long as no one interferes. When Shepard does, he no longer has any authority. He doesn't hold a gun to your head and force you to choose Synthesis. He's powerless to stop you.
He represents an ideal, but only one that is sustainable so as long as no one interferes. When Shepard does, he no longer has any authority. He doesn't hold a gun to your head and force you to choose Synthesis. He's powerless to stop you.
#297
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 06:26
Gexora
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So, Darth_Trethon
You sound suspiciously similar to ITist in a few of your posts here, but even if we forget this for a moment...
You say that Catalyst had mind-controlled me into choosing Synthesis, which is clearly wrong. The Catalyst doesn't force you to do anything, it just presents the options of the Crucible. If it had mind control over Shepard, why even bother? In fact, why even bother at all:
"Hi, I am Ancient Anti-Reaper Citadel VI. This is the beam. YOU are a Catalyst. To make Crucible fire and destroy all Reapers, jump into beam. Oh and you have thirty seconds to do so otherwise the beam will die out and Crucible will not fire".
It has to be honest for some reason, and actually give Shepard choice. And while it tries to present Synthesis as best option it's clearly failing at it.
@Vigilant111
Synthesis not plausible on many levels? Lol tell me about it
You sound suspiciously similar to ITist in a few of your posts here, but even if we forget this for a moment...
You say that Catalyst had mind-controlled me into choosing Synthesis, which is clearly wrong. The Catalyst doesn't force you to do anything, it just presents the options of the Crucible. If it had mind control over Shepard, why even bother? In fact, why even bother at all:
"Hi, I am Ancient Anti-Reaper Citadel VI. This is the beam. YOU are a Catalyst. To make Crucible fire and destroy all Reapers, jump into beam. Oh and you have thirty seconds to do so otherwise the beam will die out and Crucible will not fire".
It has to be honest for some reason, and actually give Shepard choice. And while it tries to present Synthesis as best option it's clearly failing at it.
@Vigilant111
Synthesis not plausible on many levels? Lol tell me about it
#298
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 07:00
InHarmsWay
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The reason I don't like synthesis is because the ghost child says it would cause all life to "reach the final stage" of evolution. Anyone with a highschool's understanding of evolution would know that is bs. But if we took it at its word then synthesis has caused evolutionary stagnation. And according to the theory of evolution, all life in the galaxy will become extinct; making synthesis the most horrific act of genocide imaginable.
Modifié par InHarmsWay, 07 juin 2012 - 07:01 .
#299
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 07:04
Gexora
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As I have noted a few comments above, there is no such thing as pinnacle of evolution, and given that this wonderful expression came from the very same kid who claimed synthetics have DNA, we should take allhis explanations with a grain of saltInHarmsWay wrote...
The reason I don't like synthesis is because the ghost child says it would cause all life to "reach the final stage" of evolution. Anyone with a highschool's understanding of evolution would know that is bs. But if we took it at its word then synthesis has caused evolutionary stagnation. And according to the theory of evolution, all life in the galaxy will become extinct.
#300
Posté 07 juin 2012 - 07:16
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Mind-control? More like tries to trick you into it. And the VI claims make no sense at all....it is clearly choosing to appear like the child Shep couldn't save.....both intentional by BioWare and catalyst....why do so unless it has an ulterior motive? Why not appear as anyone else or a made up look or an object. And it proclaims itself te creator of the reapers and sure tries to pass for an intelligent being.....why the deliberate trickery if it's just an innocent VI?
I can see it as a rogue AI that got out of control and turned the original inhabitants of the citadel into reapers and escalated from there.....sort of like the rogue AI from I Robot but an AI nonetheless and a very twisted one at that but not a VI.
I can see it as a rogue AI that got out of control and turned the original inhabitants of the citadel into reapers and escalated from there.....sort of like the rogue AI from I Robot but an AI nonetheless and a very twisted one at that but not a VI.
