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[Gexora]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Gexora:
Yeah....something's clearly wrong with an ending if even those who like the idea facepalm at the abysmally retarded description.

As for Paragons, what I really don't get is how so many Paragons deceive themselves into believing Destroy is a Paragon choice. Regardless of its merits as a way to end the Reaper threat, it fits the definition of a Renegade choice to a point.

Don't agree about Feros, btw. Why do you think using the anti-Thorian grenades is silly?

It's derailing the thread... but it's my thread so I can derail it if I want 
However, it's a really lengthy explanation. I will try to shorten it.
Imagine it: you are commander Shepard. You are not The Only One Who Can Save the Galaxy, not yet, but your mission is pretty darn important. You are chasing rogue spectre and possibly millenia old asari who are up to no good, and you just KNOW it's worse then what Council thinks it is, plus you are first human spectre and you just can't screw up on this mission. 
And then this NPC girl shows up and says "oh hai, btw I made this anti-thorian grenades that can free the villagers from the mind-control by affecting their nervous system".
How did she develop them? When? Why didn't she mention them earlier? How can she be sure they will work? Oh wait, she isn't - she says it's not *supposed* to affect Shepard, only villagers. So there is a good possibility they will knock YOU out as well.
Worse, the entity you are fighting with is known for mind-control. So far it hasn't failed. Maybe that scientist girl is under it's control as well? 
...I used to have much more arguements, but now I can't remember them all since I played Feros a long time ago and don't remember the details. But basically - from ingame perspective, there are too many unknowns too use this sudden convinient grenades. Trying to knock villagers out I can understand (though I played one Ax Crazy Shep that shot them all down just for deceiving him). But using those grenades is simply way too risky

[frylock23]

Gexora wrote...

I am not new to internet, but people posting in discussion without reading half of the op keep surprising me

So, basically, the biggest objections to synthesis you aren't even going to discuss?

If that's the case, then why make the thread in the first place?

OP:

Hi, I'm Gexora. I'm picking synthesis. I agree that it's ideologically revolting and makes absolutely no sense, but I'm picking it anyway. So let's discuss it, but if you want to discuss that it's ideologically revolting and makes no sense, I don't want to talk to you. k,thx, by.

That would have been much simpler to write.

But I will finish by saying that Congrats! You just wiped out all organic and synthetic life in the galaxy. When you choose destroy, it is instantly remade in to something other. Whatever it was before, it is not after the synthesis. That IS the point of synthesis. You just perpetrated galaxy-wide genocide.

Modifié par frylock23, 17 mai 2012 - 02:11 .

[Gexora]

frylock23 wrote...

Gexora wrote...

I am not new to internet, but people posting in discussion without reading half of the op keep surprising me

So, basically, the biggest objections to synthesis you aren't even going to discuss?

If that's the case, then why make the thread in the first place?

OP:

Hi, I'm Gexora. I'm picking synthesis. I agree that it's ideologically revolting and makes absolutely no sense, but I'm picking it anyway. So let's discuss it, but if you want to discuss that it's ideologically revolting and makes no sense, I don't want to talk to you. k,thx, by.

That would have been much simpler to write.

But I will finish by saying that Congrats! You just wiped out all organic and synthetic life in the galaxy. When you choose destroy, it is instantly remade in to something other. Whatever it was before, it is not after the synthesis. That IS the point of synthesis. You just perpetrated galaxy-wide genocide.

I am not going to discuss anything with people who don't bother to read what I wrote starting the discussion. I don't refuse to address the biggest complaint against the Synthesis - I have addresed it earlier in my original post, however somepeople just can't be bothered to read it. 

I don't see how letting everyone retain their identity and essence while adding something new and, for all we know, beneficial, equals  genocide. Please elaborate so we could discus it in civilized manner

[dreman9999]

ardensia wrote...

 Hooray! I get a cookie! 

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Gexora:
Yes, my main Shepard chose Synthesis, too. And I think it does solve the organic/synthetic problem, because that problem was never as simplistic as the game makes it appear to be.

The problem is not that "synthetics will always be hostile to organics", because that is clearly wrong. The problem is that...

(1) Synthetics can self-evolve and surpass organics at a frightening speed. See how the geth came to be the most advanced civilization just 300 years after their creation, and how their linked minds increase their intelligence. What will happen when they finish their Dyson swarm and all geth will be able to link with each other?

(2) More intelligent life will tend to see less intelligent life as "lesser" and insignificant and habitually cause the extinction of that lesser life with no hostility or malice, just by expanding into its space. How humans behave on Earth is the best example. Sometimes, lesser life is literally below our notice - in some cases we've caused the extinction of species we didn't even know before their extinction.

The conclusion is that advanced synthetics will cause the extinction of organics at some point, with no malice or hostility, just by doing what all life does and expanding into organics' space. That's what the Catalyst is talking about, and the phrasing of the leaked script is a hint that this is actually intended but was just obfuscated and simplified so much that it didn't make sense anymore.

Now to the Synthesis: if Synthesis combines organics and synthetics (though not on a DNA-analogue level, that's just silly and a very bad metaphor), the only way this can be a solution to that problem is if post-Synthesis life will have the same ability to self-evolve that synthetics used to have. Thus, future synthetic life - the existence of which is impossible to prevent - won't be able to surpass the hybrid life so far that it can habitually cause its extinction.

Pertinent threads:
Why the Catalyst's logic is right by JShepppp
What is the Synthesis? by me
On the Nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers, and why Synthesis is an attractive option by me.

You'll find the leaked script version of the ending descriptions in the thread:
Did post-leak changes ruin the ending's exposition and the Control and Synthesis options?

 

^^This. I really wish it had been more clearly stated in the ending, since apparently a lot of people missed it/don't buy it.

The reason Shepard makes that horrible and amusing face when EDI suggests she forgets to recycle the Normandy's oxygen is because of this. Yeah, it's funny to us when she says it, becaues EDI is a loyal squadmate and all, but the truth is this is an actual possible threat, and should EDI decide to do this (or open all the airlocks, or several other things that would make life for organics miserable while onboard the Normandy), there's a very real possibility that no one would be able to stop her... or, at least, not without sustaining heavy casualties first.

As things stand in the game before you get to the ending, EDI is loyal originally because she is shackled. She is loyal after that because of her attraction to Joker and to Shepard. But what happens when Joker and Shepard are out of the picture? What happens when she's outlived half a dozen Jokers and Shepards? The lifespans of organics become to her what the lifespans of dogs and cats are to humans. Then they become like the lifespans of gerbils and hamsters to humans. And so on.

Eventually, an effectively immortal artificial intelligence has to come to the conclusion that organic life isn't worth the emotional investment any more than we would invest ourselves emotionally in the life of a single ant. While the continued cycles of the colony might hold some intrigue, the distinction of the individuals gets lost and muddled, and is ultimately seen as largely unimportant. Even the queens of the colony can and will be replaced without much upset to the colony's overall functioning.

Someone asked me in another thread if I could imagine a situation where Shepard wouldn't argue with the Catalyst's logic, and while I didn't answer there ('cause I'm lazy about keeping up with most threads and the thread got away from me before I could reply), the answer is yes prettymuch because of this. As fond as I was of EDI and Legion, and as much effort as I put into bringing synthetic life and organic life to an understanding throughout the entire series, I just couldn't get over this. The best I could hope for was that as synthetic life continued to surpass us in efficiency there would still be a large enough number of them dedicated to preserving our kind.

Oh, wait. That's what the Reapers are already doing. And as Garrus (or maybe it was Victus, can't remember) pointed out, the Reapers are VERY efficient at what they do.

So, if I'm meeting with the Catalyst, which controls the Reapers, and it says a new possibility has been created that will solve this problem, it is in my Shepard's best interest to take that possibility, even if it's just a vaguely explained hope and filled with space magic (which I, personally, was pretty sure existed in ME from the point in time when I read the first codex entry on biotics... but that's just me, apparently, and not quite the issue here).

Destroy, as has been said, banks on the possibility that when the next form of true AI life comes about we are able to strike a comparable peace to the tentative one we struck between the geth and the quarians. Control... I don't know if it's a trap, but especially if you run with the leaked script bit about Shepard basically becoming the Catalyst means there's a distinct possibility that, given time, Shepard will reach the same conclusion the Catalyst did (see above human versus ant lifespan reference), and the cycles will start anew... if the technological singularity isn't reached first.

Yes, it is playing God. All options are, including doing nothing. But sometimes we must play God to the lives of others, whether or not we want to, whether or not it's fair, and whether or not they have any say in it whatsoever, just as parents play God to their young children.

I like the tattoo metaphor. That's more or less how I saw it. Of course, given the vagueness surrounding the ending, that interpretation falls under the category of speculations... but then again, so does every other interpretation of what exactly synthesis does.

The problem here is not that EDI can do it, it's you thinking she would.

[dreman9999]

So your not even going to acknowledged the fact that the reaper can use everything they put in organics as a way to control them in synthiese?

[Gorkan86]

dreman9999 wrote...

So your not even going to acknowledged the fact that the reaper can use everything they put in organics as a way to control them in synthiese?

Synthesis - the process of connecting or combining previously separate things or concepts in whole or set.

[Gexora]

dreman9999 wrote...

So your not even going to acknowledged the fact that the reaper can use everything they put in organics as a way to control them in synthiese?

I acknowledge that this is a possibility, though I don't think this is how synthesis works (but then, no one knows for sure how synthesis works)
However, I tried to think using Catalysts logic and just can't see the reason for it. 

The problem here is not that EDI can do it, it's you thinking she would.

 
That too. As I have pointed out, the peace between organics and synthetics is a fragile little thing. Yes, we have achieved it for now and it can blossom and lead to us leading a life in peace
OR we can destroy all current synthetics and hope for the best. But in future, there can always be synthetics who think that humans are lesser lifeform and should be guided/harvested for resources (spelling?) or humans who think that all synthetics think like that. And there is no telling whether those who support peace or hostility towards the other will prevail.

Modifié par Gexora, 17 mai 2012 - 03:18 .

[M920CAIN]

RED ending is not a paragon or a renegade choice. It is the ONLY choice & a true fan of ME/Shepard knows it.

[lordofdogtown19]

"Listen to yourself! You're indoctrinated."

[feliciano2040]

M920CAIN wrote...

RED ending is not a paragon or a renegade choice. It is the ONLY choice & a true fan of ME/Shepard knows it.

Clearly you are not  !

[balance5050]

I just can't believe you trusted a reaper.

[Gorkan86]

Can't trust Starchild. Do you think he simply let you destroy them? Hah!

[M920CAIN]

feliciano2040 wrote...

M920CAIN wrote...

RED ending is not a paragon or a renegade choice. It is the ONLY choice & a true fan of ME/Shepard knows it.

Clearly you are   !

Fix'd.



Thank You 

[dreman9999]

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So your not even going to acknowledged the fact that the reaper can use everything they put in organics as a way to control them in synthiese?

Synthesis - the process of connecting or combining previously separate things or concepts in whole or set.

What's reaper implantation or the prosess of making a reaper?

Would the how of how they do it makeit better?

[dreman9999]

Gexora wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So your not even going to acknowledged the fact that the reaper can use everything they put in organics as a way to control them in synthiese?

I acknowledge that this is a possibility, though I don't think this is how synthesis works (but then, no one knows for sure how synthesis works)
However, I tried to think using Catalysts logic and just can't see the reason for it. 

The problem here is not that EDI can do it, it's you thinking she would.

 
That too. As I have pointed out, the peace between organics and synthetics is a fragile little thing. Yes, we have achieved it for now and it can blossom and lead to us leading a life in peace
OR we can destroy all current synthetics and hope for the best. But in future, there can always be synthetics who think that humans are lesser lifeform and should be guided/harvested for resources (spelling?) or humans who think that all synthetics think like that. And there is no telling whether those who support peace or hostility towards the other will prevail.

On the post about synthesis, we don't know how it works and that is the problem. We open the option up for the star child and leave him to decide how it works.

[feliciano2040]

M920CAIN wrote...

feliciano2040 wrote...

M920CAIN wrote...

RED ending is not a paragon or a renegade choice. It is the ONLY choice & a true fan of ME/Shepard knows it.

Clearly you are   !

Fix'd.



Thank You 

 

Nope, you still aren't 

[Gorkan86]

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So your not even going to acknowledged the fact that the reaper can use everything they put in organics as a way to control them in synthiese?

Synthesis - the process of connecting or combining previously separate things or concepts in whole or set.

What's reaper implantation or the prosess of making a reaper?

Would the how of how they do it makeit better?

Implantation not equal to synthesis.
Reaper build up is not equal to the creation of new DNA.

Reapers can't synthesize a new form of life.

[Taboo]

feliciano2040 wrote...

M920CAIN wrote...

feliciano2040 wrote...

M920CAIN wrote...

RED ending is not a paragon or a renegade choice. It is the ONLY choice & a true fan of ME/Shepard knows it.

Clearly you are   !

Fix'd.



Thank You 

 

Nope, you still aren't 

LOL @ Beliving that your interpretation is always the correct one.

[dreman9999]

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So your not even going to acknowledged the fact that the reaper can use everything they put in organics as a way to control them in synthiese?

Synthesis - the process of connecting or combining previously separate things or concepts in whole or set.

What's reaper implantation or the prosess of making a reaper?

Would the how of how they do it makeit better?

Implantation not equal to synthesis.
Reaper build up is not equal to the creation of new DNA.

Reapers can't synthesize a new form of life.

They you don't get what th reapers goals are.....It's to force a technorganic evolution, not to indoctrinated everyone. Indoctrination is just a means to do it. Just because the means of how they do it change does not mean it's right.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 mai 2012 - 05:36 .

[Bill Casey]

dreman9999 wrote...

Listen to yourselves...You want to coexsit with reapers...Beings that want to invade you, impose their will on you and turn you forcably into what you don't want to be.
You want to coexsist with that? Their are somethingsyou don't coexsist with.

Saren Arterius: But if we work with the Reapers, if we make ourselves useful, think how many lives could be spared!

[Taboo]

You are aware that in the original script Synthesis made us one with the Reapers right?

[tMc Tallgeese]

I was going to choose Synthesis, but when Ash kissed me and said,"Don't go." I went with Destroy.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Bill Casey wrote...

Synthesis!

That picture is what we would call "propoganda," buddy. Anti-synthesis propoganda, this is. No thinking involved, just finding and reguritating shock-value material.

First off all, the effect and such of that picture is highly skewed. It is supposedly showing us 16 bad examples of synthesis. It actually barely shows three.

1.) Indoctrination (rapid or slow): human husks, Saren, Collectors, Praetorian, Cannibal, Banshee, Grayson, Centurion, Illusive Man, Paul Grayson.
2.) Reaper itself: Prothean beacon image, processed human (as it entails the creation of one), ME2 human Reaper, Sovereign, Harbinger, Rannoch Reaper.
3.) Overlord: David.

Frankly, the only one that's remotely relevant is Overlord, but I'd hardly consider that to be grounds for dismissing synthesis. Project Overlord was actually having success in helping humans communicate with the geth, Gavin Archer just screwed the pooch. If that's reason enough for you to banish any advancements towards organics understanding synthetics, then you're being a primitivist.

[Bill Casey]

The Reapers and husks are the most relevant, because you're striking a Faustian deal with the Reaper king...

[nwj94]

My problem with synthesis is just the fact that goes against everything the ME universe has been playing up to for years. Its not a bad concept, it just has no place in the ME universe. It could easily work somewhere else.

ME is about destroying the reapers, not work with them. Working with them would be fine, if that was what ME had wanted you to do from day one, not from the last five minutes.

But you have every right to your own opinion, just flatly disagree with you.