336 réponses à ce sujet

[Bill Casey]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

1.) Indoctrination (rapid or slow): human husks, Saren, Collectors, Praetorian, Cannibal, Banshee, Grayson, Centurion, Illusive Man, Paul Grayson.

Indoctrinate: To embue with an ideology that is accepted uncritically

Synthesis: Combining two or more things to form something new

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Bill Casey wrote...

The Reapers and husks are the most relevant, because you're striking a Faustian deal with the Reaper king...

"What's a salarian doing here? We don't work with our enemies! We crush their skull and drown in it a geyser of their own blood!"

- the wisdom of Urdnot Wreav.

Bill Casey wrote...

Saren Arterius: But if we work with the Reapers, if we make ourselves useful, think how many lives could be spared!

 

Saren only worked with the Reapers because he thought that they were unstoppable, and that it would be better to take his chances with helping them and maybe being spared. "Surrender or death, there are no other options."

"Surrender or death" doesn't sound like "they are good guys and we just need to help them."

[The Night Mammoth]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

The Reapers and husks are the most relevant, because you're striking a Faustian deal with the Reaper king...

"What's a salarian doing here? We don't work with our enemies! We crush their skull and drown in it a geyser of their own blood!"

- the wisdom of Urdnot Wreav.

I don't think need to go over once again why that analogy is flawed. 

For those of you not in the loop: Wreav was not justified in his hatred of the Salarians. He is not making the decisions. We know better by having a broader perspective. 

We are quite justified in our mistrust of the being that represents itself as the Reaper's controller.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Bill Casey wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

1.) Indoctrination (rapid or slow): human husks, Saren, Collectors, Praetorian, Cannibal, Banshee, Grayson, Centurion, Illusive Man, Paul Grayson.

Indoctrinate: To embue with an ideology that is accepted uncritically

Synthesis: Combining two or more things to form something new

And all things that are similar are alike?

> Shepard is organic with built-in cybernetic implants
> Shepard is part organic and part synthetic
> Reapers are part organic and part synthetic
> Shepard is a Reaper.

[Taboo]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

1.) Indoctrination (rapid or slow): human husks, Saren, Collectors, Praetorian, Cannibal, Banshee, Grayson, Centurion, Illusive Man, Paul Grayson.

Indoctrinate: To embue with an ideology that is accepted uncritically

Synthesis: Combining two or more things to form something new

And all things that are similar are alike?

> Shepard is organic with built-in cybernetic implants
> Shepard is part organic and part synthetic
> Reapers are part organic and part synthetic
> Shepard is a Reaper.

Strawman argument! ALERT! ALERT!

[Bill Casey]

Shepard is a daywalker...
He's Blade or Vampire Hunter D...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 17 mai 2012 - 06:11 .

[dreman9999]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

1.) Indoctrination (rapid or slow): human husks, Saren, Collectors, Praetorian, Cannibal, Banshee, Grayson, Centurion, Illusive Man, Paul Grayson.

Indoctrinate: To embue with an ideology that is accepted uncritically

Synthesis: Combining two or more things to form something new

And all things that are similar are alike?

> Shepard is organic with built-in cybernetic implants
> Shepard is part organic and part synthetic
> Reapers are part organic and part synthetic
> Shepard is a Reaper.

To be a reaper you have to be part of the reaper system...Shepard is not.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I don't think need to go over once again why that analogy is flawed. 

For those of you not in the loop: Wreav was not justified in his hatred of the Salarians. He is not making the decisions. We know better by having a broader perspective. 

We are quite justified in our mistrust of the being that represents itself as the Reaper's controller.

You didn't understand the point then, and don't understand it now.

Us knowing better is not relevant, at all. Wreav sees Mordin/Padok and acts up, we call him a moron. HOWEVER, when the game player is put in the same situation as Wreav - seeing the Catalyst come out of nowhere, most people act up in the same way. Oooh he's the enemy, I'm not working with him. It's as justified in the players mind as Wreav's prejudices are justified in his own mind.

You can't use the luxury of metagaming to say it's not the same.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Taboo-XX wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

1.) Indoctrination (rapid or slow): human husks, Saren, Collectors, Praetorian, Cannibal, Banshee, Grayson, Centurion, Illusive Man, Paul Grayson.

Indoctrinate: To embue with an ideology that is accepted uncritically

Synthesis: Combining two or more things to form something new

And all things that are similar are alike?

> Shepard is organic with built-in cybernetic implants
> Shepard is part organic and part synthetic
> Reapers are part organic and part synthetic
> Shepard is a Reaper.

Strawman argument! ALERT! ALERT!

Your detector is glitched. It should have detected strawmen with the indoctrination-synthesis comparison because it's exactly the same logic.

[The Night Mammoth]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I don't think need to go over once again why that analogy is flawed. 

For those of you not in the loop: Wreav was not justified in his hatred of the Salarians. He is not making the decisions. We know better by having a broader perspective. 

We are quite justified in our mistrust of the being that represents itself as the Reaper's controller.

You can't use the luxury of metagaming to say it's not the same.

Don't have to. 

Throughout the entire game the Reapers only want one thing: our deaths. That is their defining factor, their motivations are completely unknown and there's not attempt to explain them. They are evil, the very fibre of their being is malicious and corrupt. Even when dead they try to manipulate and kill. In their own words they see anyone who isn't a Reaper as nothing but an irrelevant speck of matter to be consumed. Their arrogance and absolute machine like intellgence portrayed no other side. The Catalyst does nothing to dispel this. 

The Salarians are nothing like that. Wreav is demonstratably wrong. He is not making any decisions, thankfully. We has allies with different perspectives showing how incorrect he is. 

Shepard is quite justified in his mistrust. Wreav is not. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Organic and machine intertwined. The strengths of both. The weaknesses of neither. That's what synthesis is about. That's what reapers are made of except they are entire races housed in a gigantic shell, then in a ship, but controlled by an AI program within the Citadel itself -- aka the Catalyst.

You are the first organic to reach this level, and the Catalyst's program doesn't function as it was intended any more. So normally you would have been offered TWO choices. Control or Destroy. But you have shown yourselves to be even more capable than previously thought. You managed to unify the galaxy more than was ever estimated. So you are offered Synthesis.

Submit and end the cycles. Join us and you (not Shepard, but the organic races in general) will be spared. There is no further need for reproduction or food consumption. We may look different but we are the same. Join the brotherhood and sisterhood of the reapers.

But Shepard..., Shepard has been worn down and is bleeding. So is submission not better than annihilation?

Ah, and you hit the "submit" button.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Don't have to. 

Throughout the entire game the Reapers only want one thing: our deaths. That is their defining factor, their motivations are completely unknown and there's not attempt to explain them. They are evil, the very fibre of their being is malicious and corrupt. Even when dead they try to manipulate and kill. In their own words they see anyone who isn't a Reaper as nothing but an irrelevant speck of matter to be consumed. Their arrogance and absolute machine like intellgence portrayed no other side. The Catalyst does nothing to dispel this. 

The Salarians are nothing like that. Wreav is demonstratably wrong. He is not making any decisions, thankfully. We has allies with different perspectives showing how incorrect he is. 

Shepard is quite justified in his mistrust. Wreav is not. 

The Catalyst is not a Reaper.

[Humakt83]

I chose synthesis to see what would happen, even though I predicted it was a trap. Though I should admit I was tired and forgot which choice was destroy (this was before I read anything about IT, I suspected the reapers were trying to trick me).

Modifié par Humakt83, 17 mai 2012 - 06:38 .

[Elite Midget]

Your Shepard should have joined with Saren, you monster.

[Gexora]

Bill Casey wrote...

The Reapers and husks are the most relevant, because you're striking a Faustian deal with the Reaper king...

But as the ending shows, we were right to trust Catalyst at least on the fact that we won't become husks. 

Taboo-XX wrote...

You are aware that in the original script Synthesis made us one with the Reapers right?

 
Well, the leaked script I read it certainly didn't
So prooflink please

And I will point it out again and again - SAREN DIDN'T WANT TO BE INTERTWINED WITH SYNTHETICS. What Saren wanted, or rather, was brainwashed to want, was to serve Reapers to avoid extinction. The tech upgrades just sorta came with the job

[The Night Mammoth]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Don't have to. 

Throughout the entire game the Reapers only want one thing: our deaths. That is their defining factor, their motivations are completely unknown and there's not attempt to explain them. They are evil, the very fibre of their being is malicious and corrupt. Even when dead they try to manipulate and kill. In their own words they see anyone who isn't a Reaper as nothing but an irrelevant speck of matter to be consumed. Their arrogance and absolute machine like intellgence portrayed no other side. The Catalyst does nothing to dispel this. 

The Salarians are nothing like that. Wreav is demonstratably wrong. He is not making any decisions, thankfully. We has allies with different perspectives showing how incorrect he is. 

Shepard is quite justified in his mistrust. Wreav is not. 

The Catalyst is not a Reaper.

It uses the pronouns we and us when referring to itself. 

"I know you seek to destroy us".

It tells me it controls the Reapers. 

So yeah, it's part of them, and not something I can ever trust. 

[The Night Mammoth]

Gexora wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

The Reapers and husks are the most relevant, because you're striking a Faustian deal with the Reaper king...

But as the ending shows, we were right to trust Catalyst at least on the fact that we won't become husks.

Hindsight reasoning rarely gets us anywhere, especially when the information you're using to extrapolate from in hindsight is very thin on the ground.

Taboo-XX wrote...

You are aware that in the original script Synthesis made us one with the Reapers right?

 
Well, the leaked script I read it certainly didn't
So prooflink please

And I will point it out again and again - SAREN DIDN'T WANT TO BE INTERTWINED WITH SYNTHETICS. What Saren wanted, or rather, was brainwashed to want, was to serve Reapers to avoid extinction. The tech upgrades just sorta came with the job

Then I suggest you take a gander at what Saren was saying, but pay attention this time. 

"The union of flesh and steel, the advantages of both, the disadvantages of neither". 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Don't have to. 

Throughout the entire game the Reapers only want one thing: our deaths. That is their defining factor, their motivations are completely unknown and there's not attempt to explain them. They are evil, the very fibre of their being is malicious and corrupt. Even when dead they try to manipulate and kill. In their own words they see anyone who isn't a Reaper as nothing but an irrelevant speck of matter to be consumed. Their arrogance and absolute machine like intellgence portrayed no other side. The Catalyst does nothing to dispel this. 

The Salarians are nothing like that. Wreav is demonstratably wrong. He is not making any decisions, thankfully. We has allies with different perspectives showing how incorrect he is. 

Shepard is quite justified in his mistrust. Wreav is not. 

The Catalyst is not a Reaper.

It uses the pronouns we and us when referring to itself. 

"I know you seek to destroy us".

It tells me it controls the Reapers. 

So yeah, it's part of them, and not something I can ever trust. 

He later refers to synthetics as "us" too.

Is that enough to stereotype him with what you think of the Reapers? Because you're effectively doing what Wreav does on Tuchanka, stereotyping Mordin/Padok with his beliefs of the salarians.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Saren only worked with the Reapers because he thought that they were unstoppable, and that it would be better to take his chances with helping them and maybe being spared. "Surrender or death, there are no other options."

"Surrender or death" doesn't sound like "they are good guys and we just need to help them."

Reposted for continued perpetration of "Saren wanted synthesis" myth.

[frylock23]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

1.) Indoctrination (rapid or slow): human husks, Saren, Collectors, Praetorian, Cannibal, Banshee, Grayson, Centurion, Illusive Man, Paul Grayson.

Indoctrinate: To embue with an ideology that is accepted uncritically

Synthesis: Combining two or more things to form something new

And all things that are similar are alike?

> Shepard is organic with built-in cybernetic implants
> Shepard is part organic and part synthetic
> Reapers are part organic and part synthetic
> Shepard is a Reaper.

Oooo, oooo, can I play? My debate teacher used something like to illustrate how to construct a faulty argument.

> God is love
> Love is blind
> Ray Charles is blind
> Ray Charles is God

See how that works?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

frylock23 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

1.) Indoctrination (rapid or slow): human husks, Saren, Collectors, Praetorian, Cannibal, Banshee, Grayson, Centurion, Illusive Man, Paul Grayson.

Indoctrinate: To embue with an ideology that is accepted uncritically

Synthesis: Combining two or more things to form something new

And all things that are similar are alike?

> Shepard is organic with built-in cybernetic implants
> Shepard is part organic and part synthetic
> Reapers are part organic and part synthetic
> Shepard is a Reaper.

Oooo, oooo, can I play? My debate teacher used something like to illustrate how to construct a faulty argument.

> God is love
> Love is blind
> Ray Charles is blind
> Ray Charles is God

See how that works?

You're preaching to the choir. That is no more logical than saying that "synthesis = indoctrination."

[feliciano2040]

Gexora wrote...

And I will point it out again and again - SAREN DIDN'T WANT TO BE INTERTWINED WITH SYNTHETICS. What Saren wanted, or rather, was brainwashed to want, was to serve Reapers to avoid extinction. The tech upgrades just sorta came with the job

Reason, it is present in this post.

[Taboo]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Gexora wrote...

And I will point it out again and again - SAREN DIDN'T WANT TO BE INTERTWINED WITH SYNTHETICS. What Saren wanted, or rather, was brainwashed to want, was to serve Reapers to avoid extinction. The tech upgrades just sorta came with the job

Reason, it is present in this post.

The problem with Synthesis has nothing to do with that,

It is the ethical dilemna of interferring with the way life is. Creating a new DNA framework on a galactic level based upon the choice of one person isn't very ethical in my opinion. Yes it will solve the HYPOTHETICAL singularity that is proposed by the Star Child and will prevent the issue between them.

But what right to you have to enforce that on others?

[SirRaven10]

My reason for choosing Synthesis was a lot less complex....I just wanted Joker to get some "action".

[Theobuomai]

I think your points about Saren are especially well said. The connection between synthesis and Saren is often a little too simplified.

Still, I would dispute that it doesn't negate diversity. I don't mean this in the sense that diversity is ended because everyone is suddenly the same, but because it forces evolution into one track amongst the whole entire universe, and that evolution is the source of diversity. It's akin to the genophage, and akin to the collectors. Basically, you have just violated, by your own choice, every other being in the universe. You have forced choice, your own will, onto everyone else. Is that utilitarian violation worth the end goal? Is Shepard forcing his/her choice and violating, or at least disallowing, everyone else's choice and integrity worth it to stop the Reapers? That's your choice, but I personally think it negates the very meaning of what it means to be in existence.

Or maybe Synthesis is really BW's solution to figure out how EDI's and Joker's relationship could actually be physically possible. Just sayin...