219 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Daennikus wrote...
Kind of steering away from the topic but when I see kids (and older kids) abusing animals for fun it makes me think that some humans are real monsters, and there's nothing you can do to change that.

Indeed. Violence for the sake of satisfaction.
Getting your kicks at others pain and misery - THAT is truly being a horrible human being.

JasonRocker wrote...
Hitting another person is called assault. Why is striking your child not the same?

Because that would be utterly stupid.
Tehrei s a difference between brainless violence and punitive measures.


Somone told punishing kids by doing chores? Works as long as they listen. But, if you refuse to get physical, how do you stop the kid form just walking out of the door?

"Do the dishes!"
"No."
...

If you think that, then doesn't it make sense to think about what you do
and the reprecussions of what you do, as to best ensure the best
outcome? You can't possibly think that and think hitting a three year
old who probably can't comprehend why they're being hit is better than
explaining to them the situation and why it's wrong.

If they can't comprehend why they're beign hit, what makes you think they can understand why it's wrong OR your explanation? Either they understand or they don't. You can't have it both ways.

And seriously, no one is advocating abusing kids. Spakings and such are usually the last choice, used when other methods fail or don't produce results. OF COURSE you'll explain to your kid what was doign it's wrong and it shouldn't do it agian. But if it keeps doign it over and over, then a good whippin is in order.

Why od poeple keep assuming extreems, with a blet being whipped out immediately if the kid even looks at you funny?


Personally I'm rather mellow in that regard. I have never, ever hit my dog, and I only spanked my nephew 2-3 times...but evidently not hard enough, cause he was laughing and found it funny.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 17 mai 2012 - 10:04 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

This is just my take on it. Some kids seem to be screwed up by not getting hit as kids, other kids are screwed up from being hit too much. I call it hitting because you can displine a child without hitting them. You can punish them without so much as laying a finger on them.

Different kinds of punishment. Not all work equally well.

And if you can explain WHY spanking a child is monstrous (other than a vauge notion that it is), be my guest.

[Lotion Soronarr]

grregg wrote...
Heck, we don't even use corporal punishment for murderers, are kids worse? How?!

No, for mudered we lock them up in a tiny room for the rest of their lives, them fully knowing they will never taste freedom, and that their outside life if over forever. Or we kill them.


corporal punishement worse? No. That's a silly idea that is somehow worse to hit someone, when there are a bajjilion ways you can hurt someone far more.

[The Jackal]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

This is just my take on it. Some kids seem to be screwed up by not getting hit as kids, other kids are screwed up from being hit too much. I call it hitting because you can displine a child without hitting them. You can punish them without so much as laying a finger on them.

Different kinds of punishment. Not all work equally well.

And if you can explain WHY spanking a child is monstrous (other than a vauge notion that it is), be my guest.

Because you are inflicting pain. It can cause, mental, emotional and obvious pain to the body. Who's to say what age you can stop, or that the impact's of the emotional scars. It's also not civil. 

[Aleya]

I'm always polite, will offer my seat on the bus/train without hesitation, and always use the formal version of "you" (my native language distinguishes between formal and informal variants) when addressing an adult I don't know. Up to my early teens my parents often received compliments for my good manners. I was hit as a child exactly once, in a situation where I in no way deserved it. My parents had a strict hands-off policy. My punishments came in the form of being sent to my room, being denied tv access, and worst of all for me, expressions of disappointment from my parents. And evidently that worked.

As far as I can tell, all being hit teaches a child is that a certain action will result in painful repercussions. It teaches the child to fear the consequences, and possibly the person performing the slapping/beating/whatever, nothing more. It does not magically instill respect or a sense of responsibility.

The ideal result of a child's upbringing is, in my opinion, a good person. Someone who is well-mannered, kind, and well-behaved because that's just how they are. Not someone who obeys social rules and laws just because they fear what might happen if they don't. An upbringing based entirely on beating a child when he or she misbehaves will result in the second kind of person, not the first. Good attributes such as manners and kindness are learned by example. They're learned by watching adults perform this behavior, copying it, and noticing that people will be friendly and like you as a result. They're further ingrained when a child gains the ability to empathise with other people and comes to understand that it's best to treat others as you yourself wish to be treated. All of this is positive reinforcement, beatings don't factor into it at all.

I'd also like to point out that in my country a significantly larger percentage of second- or third-generation immigrants engages in criminal behavior than those whose parents and grandparents were also born here. Corporal punishment is culturally far more acceptable and far more common among those second- and third-gen immigrants. Should we then conclude that corporal punishment encourages criminal behavior?

Yes, there's been a significant decrease in the amount of corporal punishment applied to my generation compared to the one before it. However, correlation does not imply causation. There are a *ton* of other differences. Not just in the way children are conventionally raised, but the world they are raised in. It's entirely nonsensical to blame a perceived decline in manners and respect on a random attribute.

Modifié par Aleya, 17 mai 2012 - 11:27 .

[Blacklash93]

I'd like to point out that punishment and negative reinforcement are not the same thing. They can be connected in some situations, but are not identical. Punishment is to discourage a behavior from being repeated while NR is to encourage a behavior by the removal of an unpleasant stimulus.

For the subject, I agree with the OP.There is no innate goodness in humans and we must learn to behave in certain ways. If teaching children to disengage from behaviors that negatively impact themselves and those they interact with involves punishment then so be it.

We can't forget about positive reinforcement, though. It is the first thing parents should be considering with children. Early-life PR makes negative behaviors less common and thus makes the need for punishment less common as well. Thorough and well-paced PR even moreso. And that makes everyones' lives easier.

Parents have no excuse not to be somewhat well-versed in the workings of reinforcement and punishment with the advent of the internet, honestly. If you just wing parenting you're going to have a lot more issues than if you are educated with it; knowing what works and what doesn't and when reinforcement/punishment is appropriate and most effective. Discipline is paramount to working toward ensuring success in a child's life and I'd like to believe all parents have their child's happiness in their interests.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 18 mai 2012 - 12:58 .

[Tirigon]

Corporal punishment needs to be outlawed because the difference between a deserved slap on the head and child abuse can sometimes be hard to tell, especially if the parents, or the judges involved, or both, are f*cking idiots (which, according to statistics, is 90% of the cases).

So the best way to protect children is, treating ALL parents who beat them as criminals.

[xsdob]

Some kids deserve it, but what about when it goes to far.

For example, I'm twenty and I can't stop flinching every time my dad raises his voice, even when it's just him happy or laughing.

He slapped me and hit me when I ****ed up or got bad grades, now I'm sunconciously scared or him and of disappointing him, I'm fine and happy when i'm around him but I still involuntarily get these twicks when he does things. It's become an actual point of anxiety for me, I almost got an anxiety attack when I was starting to dip down in my college grades and thought my now over 60 year old dad was going to beat my ass.

So, I'm an example that corporal punishment is not the 100% miracle cure for bad behavior, but can be just as damaging as not punishing kids at all, only in the opposite direction.

Modifié par xsdob, 18 mai 2012 - 01:56 .

[Persephone]

Violence breeds violence.

Fear isn't the same as respect.

Brain over brawn and all that.

There can be discipline and punishment without violence. Taking away privileges. Grounding. Additional chores. Positive and negative enforcement. Delinquent children are the result of bad parenting. I blame the parents, not the children. One reason why I'm not having children? I'm not good Mom material and I know it.

With all the child abuse going on (Anybody remember Baby Grace? A defenseless toddler beaten to death... And hers is just ONE case of many), I will never support inflicting pain on children.

[TJPags]

A slap for a misbehaving child gets their attention. You can then explain what they did wrong, and why.

How is that so horrible?

[The Jackal]

TJPags wrote...

A slap for a misbehaving child gets their attention. You can then explain what they did wrong, and why.

How is that so horrible?

That is the worst thing I have ever heard in my life. 

[Tirigon]

TJPags wrote...

A slap for a misbehaving child gets their attention. You can then explain what they did wrong, and why.

How is that so horrible?

It is not - but a slap can easily turn into many, and a beating, and eventually a child gets beaten to death.

Since there is no way to watch and guard, just outlaw the slap and be done with it.





Another matter, though, is: Who judges whether or not the child was misbehaving?

Most "misbehaviors" of children are what I would call "refusing to do what you're told if your lazy piece-of-sh!t father screams "CHILD, BRING ME  BEER!!!!" while he is watching TV".

Modifié par Tirigon, 18 mai 2012 - 02:23 .

[TJPags]

JasonRocker wrote...

TJPags wrote...

A slap for a misbehaving child gets their attention. You can then explain what they did wrong, and why.

How is that so horrible?

That is the worst thing I have ever heard in my life. 

You've clearly led a sheltered life if that's the worst thing you ever heard.

[TJPags]

Tirigon wrote...

TJPags wrote...

A slap for a misbehaving child gets their attention. You can then explain what they did wrong, and why.

How is that so horrible?

It is not - but a slap can easily turn into many, and a beating, and eventually a child gets beaten to death.

Since there is no way to watch and guard, just outlaw the slap and be done with it.





Another matter, though, is: Who judges whether or not the child was misbehaving?

Most "misbehaviors" of children are what I would call "refusing to do what you're told if your lazy piece-of-sh!t father screams "CHILD, BRING ME  BEER!!!!" while he is watching TV".

One slap is in no way abuse,  Yes, abuse is wrong . . .beating a child so hard that you break bones or kill the child, or even bruise them, is clearly wrong.  One slap is not.

Anyone here have a dog?  Ever slap a dogs snout when it does something wrong?  Is that animal cruelty?

[Tirigon]

TJPags wrote...

Anyone here have a dog?  Ever slap a dogs snout when it does something wrong?  Is that animal cruelty?

In my opinion, yes.

I never beat our dog (my parents sometimes did, sadly, but I cant tell them waht to do).

[TJPags]

Tirigon wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Anyone here have a dog?  Ever slap a dogs snout when it does something wrong?  Is that animal cruelty?

In my opinion, yes.

I never beat our dog (my parents sometimes did, sadly, but I cant tell them waht to do).

See, there you go - "beat".  One slap is not "beating".  That's true whether it's a dog or a child.

A slap on the hand or on the butt is not "beating a child".

I suppose people who believe this also believe that yelling is abusive as well.

[Volus Warlord]

How is this not locked yet?

Though this is pretty funny.

"I was tortured as a child.." Cmon. By that standard, so were all of us. Or nearly all of us. Everybody's got their sob story.

[Chromie]

JasonRocker wrote...

TJPags wrote...

A slap for a misbehaving child gets their attention. You can then explain what they did wrong, and why.

How is that so horrible?

That is the worst thing I have ever heard in my life. 

Lol, I would love for you to spend a day in my neighborhood!

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Daennikus wrote...

I was walking my dog around the lake one evening and caught some kids throwing rocks at the ducks. Their dad was with them. I tell them to stop, and their dad says this:

"It's better to throw rocks at ducks than at humans."

Wow, nice parenting, a**hole.

Hopefully they never visit Yellowstone.  Throwing rocks at bison is a way to get someone killed.

I would pushed them in one by one and then throw rocks at them. See how they ****ing like it.

Thankfully, i have not seen anyone abuse animals, if i did then i will make sure my face haunts that man for the rest of his life.

Gang of 'Animal Lovers'

If a boy is beaten by a bully you would possibly do nothing, but those children deserve stoning eh?

I like to see what would you do when a wolf is tearing apart a child?

If it be against the law I would warn them not to harm the animals, but if it isn't I don't give a damn. They're not my sapient brothers anyway.

----------------------------

About punishment and its necessary, suffice to say that I was raised without any kind of it and I became an arrogant ignorant lazy teen till age 20. At that time I was in middle of University just to escape the military service and my body was horribly weak.
Thanks to the philosophy who saved my mind and body from annihilation. But It wasn't enough because I'm 9 years behind in life others the same age as me.
Yes lack of Discipline and ability to think properly, ruined my youth and my early 20s, plus added the weakness in my body.

I am a great unignorable example why genuine punishment is always necessary. Pain and sorrow is needed to teach you the essentials of life or you have to find them by yourself and it wastes too many years of your life and the regret always be with you.

Modifié par Imperial Sentinel Arian, 18 mai 2012 - 05:30 .

[xsdob]

^ Same, but my dad did use physical punishment on me

It's more effective than non-physical punishment, the only downside is that your children will fear you rather than love you. It took me till I was 18 to stop being afraid of my dad, who I was still living with. Now he's weaker and going through some health problems so I'm helping to take care of him. Still, like I said earlier I still have a subconscious fear of him hitting me for failing in my academics or behavior and I flinch whenever he raises his voice for anything.

I'm 20, I'm overweight and out of shape, and I have no telling what my future will be. But I do have a major and a 3.5 gpa, so that's something. I don't know how to talk to people either, but that's more due to some genetic mental thing I apparently have that makes me unable to be confortable around people.

Modifié par xsdob, 18 mai 2012 - 06:13 .

[Han Shot First]

Ever notice that the children of parents who rely solely on 'time outs' and other forms of punishment that don't involve corporal punishment, are the biggest out of control brats you've ever seen? A parent slapping their kids on the hands or on their behind when they act out is not abuse. It is parenting. Your job is to be a parent, not your child's friend.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 18 mai 2012 - 07:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

JasonRocker wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

This is just my take on it. Some kids seem to be screwed up by not getting hit as kids, other kids are screwed up from being hit too much. I call it hitting because you can displine a child without hitting them. You can punish them without so much as laying a finger on them.

Different kinds of punishment. Not all work equally well.

And if you can explain WHY spanking a child is monstrous (other than a vauge notion that it is), be my guest.

Because you are inflicting pain. It can cause, mental, emotional and obvious pain to the body. Who's to say what age you can stop, or that the impact's of the emotional scars. It's also not civil.

Causes pain? So what? Life is pain. Pain is easily forgotten. Pain pases. Pain can serve a purpose. And words and actions can also hurt.

Mental and emotional scarring from being slapped or spanked a few times? What do you think children are? Soap bubbles that will burst if you so much as look at them wrong?

Humans are hardier than that - both mentally and physicaly. If an occasional spanking causes you emotional trauma, then there's something very wrong with you. I was spanked as a child, I got no traumas nor emotional scarring. Heck, I don't even recall any of it. It's redicolous.
The bulls*** psychologists there days spew out about "trauma". Bah..

And ciliv? Frak this false, empty notion of "civil".

And fear? A child should have some fear of his parents, at least a little. It's only natural.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 18 mai 2012 - 07:58 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Tirigon wrote...

Corporal punishment needs to be outlawed because the difference between a deserved slap on the head and child abuse can sometimes be hard to tell, especially if the parents, or the judges involved, or both, are f*cking idiots (which, according to statistics, is 90% of the cases).

So the best way to protect children is, treating ALL parents who beat them as criminals.

No.
The best way to help children is to ignore you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Persephone wrote...

Violence breeds violence.
Fear isn't the same as respect.

Not necessarily
Resentment ins't the same as respect either. A child can resent you from you slappign him as much as he can resent you for grounding him.
Punishment is punishment, regardless of which form it takes.

There can be discipline and punishment without violence. Taking away privileges. Grounding. Additional chores. Positive and negative enforcement.

So how exactly do you inforce those punishments?

"you're gounded!"
*kid walks towerds the door*
"Stop right there, I said your'e grounded"
*kid walks out*

If the child refuses to listen to you..then what?
If you lock the child in it's room, how is that better than just slapping him?

With all the child abuse going on I will never support inflicting pain on children.

With all the bad behavior going on, I will never support removeal of corporal punishment as a child rearing tool.
Pain is passing.


This is something I really have to ask:
WHY is physical pain of a slap (that last for a few seconds) considered worse than any other kind of punishment?