219 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

FaultenXIII wrote...

As a recent psych grad I feel I can offer some insight to this thread. Corporal punishment 'CAN' have some uses in child rearing, though it is only effective when used vary sparingly. If it is used commonly and at the same intensity each time, i.e. you spank the child close to the same number of times with the same amount of force each time, then the effect of the corporal punishment begins to rapidly fade. To maintain the effectiveness of corporal punishment you must keep delivering it with an ever increasing intensity or risk loosing the effectiveness of the punishment. Now I probably don't have to spell this out for people here to see the risks of what that could mean, but for the sake of clarity I will. To keep this effective you would have to keep escalating the intensity and forcefulness of the punishment with each application, so spankings with your hand would upgrade into something like a pop from a paddle board or something similar, and it just goes up from there. Now the real trouble here is that after awhile the line between corporal punishment and abuse becomes very hard to discern.

Another point to bring up is the child's increasing age. At a young age corporal punishment can be EXTREMELY effective in establishing behavior in children. Their young minds are very impressionable so an extremely intense stimulus like corporal punishment will quickly get them to stop something, at least for the moment. However as they get older, especially in the teen years, they will be close in physical size to the parent, and if you have been doing this to them for years, you may have instilled some unintended side effects in them. First could be a sense of bitterness or aggression from being treated that way. Second could be that they no longer want to be treated like that, and right or wrong, trying to physically discipline someone who is close to your size and does not want to be is going to be pretty difficult.

So going back to point, corporal punishment can have its uses in child rearing, though it is best used sparingly.

I'm no psychologist, but I'm not sure I agree with everything you say.  Or perhaps I misunderstand.

A smack on the butt or the hand, to immediately curb unacceptable behavior and get attention, is a form of corporal punishment, no?  IMO, it can be used repeatedly.  Now, yes, as the child gets older, the smack will need to get harder (a light tap to a child of 18 months will likely barely be felt by one of 9 years), but it does not need to escalate.  One smack need not become 2, then 3, then 5, etc.  And a smack with an open hand need not turn into one with a closed fist, then an object, etc.

Maybe you consider that "sparing use", in which case, I think your point is valid.  But when I hear "sparing use", I think "very rare, almost never".  And in that event, I'm not sure it's valid.

I also think - and again, may have misunderstood your point - that corporal punishment alone is of virtually no use.  By "corporal punishment alone" I mean the only discipline ever used is physical.  To me, this is meaningless, as a child learns there is only one punishment for any transgression, regardless of severity.  Frankly, if I know I'm going to get hit with a baseball bat 10 times regardless of whether I forget to make my bed or if I throw my playmate down the stairs, well heck, why not go big and toss away?

Discipline of a child is, first and foremost, for teaching rules of behavior - what is and is not acceptable in different situations.  The beginning of this is telling the child what they can and can't do, and as they get older, explaining why.  The second is being consistent in those rules.  The third is being fair in discipline - failing to make a bed does not deserve the same punishment as hitting a playmate, whether that punishment is a time out, taking away a toy, a grounding, or physical punishment.

To me, if a child is repeatedly engaging in the same unacceptable behavior, the problem is the parent - and not in terms of the form of punishment, but in terms of their ability to set boundaries and/or stick to them.

[Affrayer]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

"A positive attitude fixes everything!"

No, it really doesn't. Not in the slightest.

Actually, people with positive attitudes and outlooks generally do sort through and deal with their problems faster and more effectively.

Or just ignore them till they blow up in their faces and say what a shame. 

Right, not everyone can have a happy go-lucky personality. Some people are hardwired differently, especially me. If I'm not a pure meloncholy, then I'm near the tip of the iceberg.

[Affrayer]

I completely agree with you up until this point:

TJPags wrote...

To me, if a child is repeatedly engaging in the same unacceptable behavior, the problem is the parent - and not in terms of the form of punishment, but in terms of their ability to set boundaries and/or stick to them.

While generally true, it is not 100% correct. i know some good parents who have one hell of a time raising a child with anti-social personality disorder (sociopath). It's not their fault for what their child does, he just...is.

[TJPags]

Affrayer wrote...

I completely agree with you up until this point:

TJPags wrote...

To me, if a child is repeatedly engaging in the same unacceptable behavior, the problem is the parent - and not in terms of the form of punishment, but in terms of their ability to set boundaries and/or stick to them.

While generally true, it is not 100% correct. i know some good parents who have one hell of a time raising a child with anti-social personality disorder (sociopath). It's not their fault for what their child does, he just...is.

Ahhh, well, yes - I was assuming a normal child with no significant developmental disorders.  Clearly, some people are just sociopaths, and that starts as children - not much to be done there.

[KBomb]

 
The reasons children act out differ. Most of the time when a child is acting out, a simple solution can be to provide stimuli. Children have short attention spans and often will “act out” when bored, as they resort to entertain themselves. Teaching a child how to properly entertain themselves can go a long way. Children will also act out if they are tired or want attention. It rarely matters what sort of attention, but if you condition your child to respond to negative attention, then (s)he will do things to receive it.


Children also act out due to a breakdown in parenting skills. If your teen is acting out in violence, destructive behavior or severe disrespect---it isn't because you didn't spank them. Those issues come from an emotional or psychological difficulty due to a neurological attribute or faulty home dynamic.


I work in the school system with children who have neurological attributes and some of them are labeled as “difficult” or “discipline problems” when a majority of the time the issue derives from the adult simply not knowing how to deal with someone who has Aspergers, or Attenion Disorders, Executive Disorders and etc. Unfortunately, teachers aren't taught a great deal in how to accommodate these types of disorders which usually has secondary complications such as “acting out”. The same can be applied to parents. Often time it isn't that they are bad parents, they're just ill equipped to handle those situations. Parenting is a work in progress.


One more thing: A child should never be spanked in public. It's degrading and humiliating and can have lasting underling effects. Degradation and humiliation should never be used as disciplinary actions.

Modifié par KBomb, 19 mai 2012 - 05:35 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Having the IQ of Isaac Newton and Baruch Spinoza has helped me reveal many vague aspects of the universe ... but I doubt I become as famous as they.

About the respecting children in somewhere in Africa, I meant specifically the relation between children and their parents.
I have much respect for some Chinese, Roman, Greek and German thinkers who awoke me from ignorance; and most of them were so kind, best fitted for the role of teacher.
Teachers, politicians, actors etc. might get the respect, but it is different from the essential matters of family and domus.

[TJPags]

KBomb wrote...

One more thing: A child should never be spanked in public. It's degrading and humiliating and can have lasting underling effects. Degradation and humiliation should never be used as disciplinary actions.

Won't discuss the first part of your post (because I lack knowledge enough to discuss it intelligently) but I want to ask you one thing:

Define "spanking", please.

Because I think your definition is essential to knowing if I agree with you or not.  It may also be essential for a lot of other people who've posted in this thread, in order to have understanding of each other's viewpoints.

I'll start:  "spanking" to me is multiple strikes to a child, issued for the purpose of discipline.  And if that's your definition, Kbomb, I agree with you.

This definition, to me, is distinct from a single smack, delivered to provide immediate correction to unacceptable or dangerous behavior.  And to me, doing this in public should be perfectly acceptable.

[FaultenXIII]

TJPags wrote...

I'm no psychologist, but I'm not sure I agree with everything you say.  Or perhaps I misunderstand.

A smack on the butt or the hand, to immediately curb unacceptable behavior and get attention, is a form of corporal punishment, no?  IMO, it can be used repeatedly.  Now, yes, as the child gets older, the smack will need to get harder (a light tap to a child of 18 months will likely barely be felt by one of 9 years), but it does not need to escalate.  One smack need not become 2, then 3, then 5, etc.  And a smack with an open hand need not turn into one with a closed fist, then an object, etc.

Maybe you consider that "sparing use", in which case, I think your point is valid.  But when I hear "sparing use", I think "very rare, almost never".  And in that event, I'm not sure it's valid.

I also think - and again, may have misunderstood your point - that corporal punishment alone is of virtually no use.  By "corporal punishment alone" I mean the only discipline ever used is physical.  To me, this is meaningless, as a child learns there is only one punishment for any transgression, regardless of severity.  Frankly, if I know I'm going to get hit with a baseball bat 10 times regardless of whether I forget to make my bed or if I throw my playmate down the stairs, well heck, why not go big and toss away?

Discipline of a child is, first and foremost, for teaching rules of behavior - what is and is not acceptable in different situations.  The beginning of this is telling the child what they can and can't do, and as they get older, explaining why.  The second is being consistent in those rules.  The third is being fair in discipline - failing to make a bed does not deserve the same punishment as hitting a playmate, whether that punishment is a time out, taking away a toy, a grounding, or physical punishment.

To me, if a child is repeatedly engaging in the same unacceptable behavior, the problem is the parent - and not in terms of the form of punishment, but in terms of their ability to set boundaries and/or stick to them.

You more or less got the jist of what I was going for. If physical discipline is all you use then you will have to up the ante contiunously in order to get th same results. I recall in my learning & behavior class we discussed a woman who had five kids ranging from 2 all the way up to 15 and she had discipline tools of various sizes dedicated to each age group. I can't remember them all, but the one that stood out to me was the one for older children/teens was the strip of leather that a barber would use to sharpen their knives. It's debatable, but striking your older child with a strip of leather about an inch thick seems to be getting dangerously close to crossing the line into abuse.


The point I tried to make, and I'm not sure how effective I was in conveying it, was that corporal punishment alone is not a very long term effective way to discipline a child. In the short term it can deter behavior immediately, but it is but one tool in the parent's set, and like all tools it only good at certain things. There are additional tools and techniques besides corporal punishement that can be used, however those take more time and effort to accomplish. Operant conditioning for example, can be used to great effect, so long as you are thurough in your application of it. Reward them when they are good, discipline them when they are bad, and be sure to explain WHY! Punishment with out explination can lead to all kinds of unwanted consequences. 

[Tirigon]

Affrayer wrote...

There was this quote I saw somewhere.......eh, doesn't matter where. It goes like this: "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves."  Even if they weren't killed, I think it's still wrong to deny someone their rights. Sounds like you want to setup a caste system. What would you name your country?

Caste system? No, where do you get this idea.

All I want is save children from having to suffer bad parents.

[KBomb]

TJPags wrote...

Won't discuss the first part of your post (because I lack knowledge enough to discuss it intelligently) but I want to ask you one thing:

Define "spanking", please.

Because I think your definition is essential to knowing if I agree with you or not.  It may also be essential for a lot of other people who've posted in this thread, in order to have understanding of each other's viewpoints.

I'll start:  "spanking" to me is multiple strikes to a child, issued for the purpose of discipline.  And if that's your definition, Kbomb, I agree with you.

This definition, to me, is distinct from a single smack, delivered to provide immediate correction to unacceptable or dangerous behavior.  And to me, doing this in public should be perfectly acceptable.

 
I would say that definition is how I view spanking, yes. Forgive the long answer, please skip if you want. I wouldn't blame you.


As to slapping a child's hand or other body parts to deter them from danger or unacceptable behaviors isn't really necessary. For small children, toddlers for example—a simple redirection would most likely work. First and foremost it is a parent's responsibility to make a safe environment for your child to live and play in so that he/she isn't likely to come across any dangerous situations, i.e. childproofing outlets and cabinets, keeping choking hazards put away, etc. If an accident does occur, for example, a toddler picks up a knife left on the table—simply remove it with a firm, “No, that could hurt you. Let's play instead.” and then give them something stimulating to do away from the area where the knife was. With their incredibly short attention span, I guarantee you it will be forgotten in minutes.


If your toddler is showing inappropriate behavior, most likely they are bored or tired. Try to schedule outings after nap times and if you're going to be gone longer than a few hours—perhaps find a sitter. If you can't, make sure you bring a bag of toys, crayons and paper, etc. If that doesn't work, you may have to consider removing the child from the situation until they are calm, like a bathroom or a quiet room. These things aren't a quick fix as a smack on the hand, certainly—but in the long term the child will be happier. Smacking them , even on the hand could cause pain and pain brings crying which stresses out the child and the parent and can make the situation worse.


As for older children, remove them from the “danger zone” and explain to them why you did so. They should be able to understand danger and warnings. For unacceptable behavior, set boundaries and be firm in them. Explain to them why their behavior is unacceptable and explain what the consequences will be if they continue. Example, you'll leave the party and they'll have to go to bed early when you get home. Then stick to it. Never tolerate temper tantrums. Remain calm yourself because children can feed off emotions. Explain to them that you will not talk to them about the problem until they calm themselves. If all else fails, remove them from the situation.


Most important is to give your child the appropriate skills to communicate with you. The majority of the time a younger child has tantrums is because they lack the skills to communicate frustrations.


These are just a couple of examples that you can add to your tool belt. There are many tools that can do the job, but wouldn't you want to use the most effective? Teaching them skills that can improve their behavior will work more effectively in the long run. Good behaviors are learned behaviors and with patience, time and effort it can be taught. Being a parent is hard work and a constant work in progress. It's something to think about before making that lifetime commitment. I am certainly not judging those who implement corporal punishment, I am only saying it is not necessary and more effective and healthier alternatives are available.

  EDIT: And to end: Always praise and reward good behavior. They will be more inclined to behaved.

Modifié par KBomb, 20 mai 2012 - 06:09 .

[Sajji]

I was never abused, but if I was bad, i got spanked. Even got the belt once or twice from dad for being really bad.

It's moronic not being able to spank your kids. There's an obvious and clear difference between spanking and abuse. Others think they can tell parents what to do...they have no f-ing clue. They just read a book and follow some self-righteous ethical perspective about theories some other bighead with self-righteous ethical perspectives wrote.

Kind of like bullying. These morons...they say that bullying is intolerable and that those being bullyed should be open and express their emotions, while simultaneously telling them not to stand up for themselves. I punched a kid in middle school because I was being bullyed, and I never was teased again. Nowadays, all that resentment and anger builds up inside and without an outlet for self-defense and / or sticking up for yourself with a clean fistfight, kids go off the wall and bring guns in and start popping people.

Brilliant ideology...

[KBomb]

Sajji wrote...

I was never abused, but if I was bad, i got spanked. Even got the belt once or twice from dad for being really bad.

It's moronic not being able to spank your kids. There's an obvious and clear difference between spanking and abuse. Others think they can tell parents what to do...they have no f-ing clue. They just read a book and follow some self-righteous ethical perspective about theories some other bighead with self-righteous ethical perspectives wrote.

Hitting a child with a belt should never be okay, no matter your view of spanking. Using a belt or inanimate object is for the sole purpose of inflicting pain. In my opinion, that should not be condoned. I cannot fathom using such a pain inflicting object on a child.


As for the latter of the paragraph, it's plainly hypocritical. You're saying it's not acceptable to tell people how to raise their children, then blast parents who turn to alternatives by reading research materials. As a parent you should always be open to ideas and advice. Becoming a parent doesn't automatically fill you with the knowledge of how to raise a child. You're constantly learning and that's a good thing. Spanking a child can send the message that you're out of control of your emotions and can't handle the situation, therefore you turn to violence.. What happens when a child encounters a problem where they feel out of control? You are your child's first teacher.

Kind of like bullying. These morons...they say that bullying is intolerable and that those being bullyed should be open and express their emotions, while simultaneously telling them not to stand up for themselves. I punched a kid in middle school because I was being bullyed, and I never was teased again. Nowadays, all that resentment and anger builds up inside and without an outlet for self-defense and / or sticking up for yourself with a clean fistfight, kids go off the wall and bring guns in and start popping people.

Not sure what you're saying here. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen any one here state that children shouldn't stand up for themselves against bullies. Was there even a discussion about bullies and spanking? I thought we were discussing diciplinary issues between children and parents. Children who are bullied should absolutely be able to express their emotions to their parents and parents should encourage open communication. Bullying should never be tolerated and parents should rectify the issue immediately if they discover their child is being a bully. Working in the public school system, I have seen a few cases of bullying, especially since I work with children who have neurological problems and they are often victims of bullying. The bully almost always has emotional and behavioral issues that have been a habitual problem and almost always have a poor family dynamic.

Modifié par KBomb, 20 mai 2012 - 07:01 .

[Homebound]

what sick freak would rear a child anyways.

[kobayashi-maru]

Sajji wrote...

I was never abused, but if I was bad, i got spanked. Even got the belt once or twice from dad for being really bad.

It's moronic not being able to spank your kids. There's an obvious and clear difference between spanking and abuse. Others think they can tell parents what to do...they have no f-ing clue. They just read a book and follow some self-righteous ethical perspective about theories some other bighead with self-righteous ethical perspectives wrote.

Kind of like bullying. These morons...they say that bullying is intolerable and that those being bullyed should be open and express their emotions, while simultaneously telling them not to stand up for themselves. I punched a kid in middle school because I was being bullyed, and I never was teased again. Nowadays, all that resentment and anger builds up inside and without an outlet for self-defense and / or sticking up for yourself with a clean fistfight, kids go off the wall and bring guns in and start popping people.

Brilliant ideology...

I was abused, emotionally neglected and dumped on my grandparents at 6. What you say does make sense but not every parent is equipped psychologically to know when enough is enough. Until my teens I was an abusive thug with severe issues because of childhood. My parents should never have had kids neither where capable of it.
Today I still have problems with trust etc. but Im surprisingly polite, honest and caring. If I see someone spanking their kid I have to grit teeth to avoid smaking them upside the head. I hate seeing it and it's same if someone hurts an animal. Power over the weak, call me a hippy but if your first response to bad behaviour is violence then a parent needs therapy.

[Sajji]

Look how great the children of today are. Spoiled, disrespectful, violent and entitled. Didn't take long for the know it alls to screw society up. I'm not even going to enter in any more argumentation over this. I mean, all I had to do was dispell reality.

Don't be surprised if you ever confront somebody on the way they're parenting and receive massive backlash, a nasty glare and an "Excuse me, who the hell are you?"

Modifié par Sajji, 20 mai 2012 - 07:52 .

[KBomb]

Sajji wrote...

Look how great the children of today are. Spoiled, disrespectful, violent and entitled. Didn't take long for the know it alls to screw society up. I'm not even going to enter in any more argumentation over this. I mean, all I had to do was dispell reality.

Don't be surprised if you ever confront somebody on the way they're parenting and receive massive backlash, a nasty glare and an "Excuse me, who the hell are you?"

 
Well, that's the point, isn't it? Better parenting leads to better children. Better understanding of neurological and mental disorders in children lead to treatments that work and lead to more productive children. Not all children who come from homes without spanking end up being a delinquent and not all children who come from homes with spanking end up being a delinquent. There are various factors that lead to violent and destructive behavior poor parenting skills are part of it. This behavior should be handled professionally and if you're a parent and know your child exhibits these behaviors, it's your responsibility to ensure your child gets the proper help they need. If you ignore it, you're part of the problem.


Spoiled and disrespectful children are a result of bad parenting skills. Children need structure and boundaries. Not meeting these will result in this behavior, whether you spank your child or not.
 
Also, if I ever saw a parent abuse their child, I would most certainly confront them and notify the authorities and to hell with “backlash”. That is the only case I would approach anyone. This is a discussion thread and that is what we're doing.

Modifié par KBomb, 20 mai 2012 - 08:02 .

[Sajji]

I agree with you, KBomb, up until the end. Imo, spanking isn't abuse. Beating is abuse. A paddle with the hand has a corrective measure, but for me it was also followed up with an explanation and discussion. I got the belt twice for intentionally disobeying my dad, lying to his face, then a massive load of backtalk and yelling. And boy...when I was old enough to officially start being grounded did I ever wish for the old days of spanking again. Grounded for weeks, writing assignments, laps around the house....not fun. It's kind of strange reliving 15-20 years ago.

Unless I see a parent punching or pounding on their kid, it isn't my business. They're the parent...not my responsibility, not my issue, and not my business.

Modifié par Sajji, 20 mai 2012 - 08:18 .

[KBomb]

Sajji wrote...

I agree with you, KBomb, up until the end. Imo, spanking isn't abuse. Beating is abuse. A paddle with the hand has a corrective measure, but for me it was also followed up with an explanation and discussion. I got the belt twice for intentionally disobeying my dad, lying to his face, then a massive load of backtalk and yelling. And boy...when I was old enough to officially start being grounded did I ever wish for the old days of spanking again. Grounded for weeks, writing assignments, laps around the house....not fun. It's kind of strange reliving 15-20 years ago.

Unless I see a parent punching or pounding on their kid, it isn't my business. They're the parent...not my responsibility, not my issue, and not my business.

 
In my opinion spanking is an ineffective way to discipline your child. It is a band-aid and not a cure for disruptive behavior. In my opinion, there are too many other wonderful alternatives to use than such an archaic form of physical punishment. However, no where did I state that spanking was abuse. I do not believe spanking is abuse. I believe it is harsh and unnecessary. There is a difference. I don't why you think I meant otherwise.

 
Edit: I will stand firm, however, that it is my opinion that hitting a child with a belt is a form of abuse. Using an instrument is for the sole purpose of inflicting as much pain as possible and should not be condoned.

Modifié par KBomb, 20 mai 2012 - 08:27 .

[Sajji]

Vaern Sul wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...

Every generation says pretty much the same thing about the generation that comes after them.

Corporal punishment? Yeah, used to be people were put in stocks, cut off the hands of thieves, and there were public floggings.

Personally, I'm glad to see we've progressed from that.

Look, I'm all about progress, but changing one's method of education for the sake of it is just as dumb as clinging to the candle because light bulbs are new and scary. 
How exactly is raising a kid by not telling him/her what's wrong a progress ? How exactly is the fact that teachers are afraid to speak louder as a direct result of the sanctification of kids a progress ?
This, my friend, is not progress. It's going somewhere because staying in place is considered dumb.
Well guess what ? When you're standing on the edge of a cliff, going forward might not be such a keen idea.

Absolutely brilliant, and it applies to, shall I say, a lot of things today.

[Sajji]

KBomb wrote...

Sajji wrote...

I agree with you, KBomb, up until the end. Imo, spanking isn't abuse. Beating is abuse. A paddle with the hand has a corrective measure, but for me it was also followed up with an explanation and discussion. I got the belt twice for intentionally disobeying my dad, lying to his face, then a massive load of backtalk and yelling. And boy...when I was old enough to officially start being grounded did I ever wish for the old days of spanking again. Grounded for weeks, writing assignments, laps around the house....not fun. It's kind of strange reliving 15-20 years ago.

Unless I see a parent punching or pounding on their kid, it isn't my business. They're the parent...not my responsibility, not my issue, and not my business.

 
In my opinion spanking is an ineffective way to discipline your child. It is a band-aid and not a cure for disruptive behavior. In my opinion, there are too many other wonderful alternatives to use than such an archaic form of physical punishment. However, no where did I state that spanking was abuse. I do not believe spanking is abuse. I believe it is harsh and unnecessary. There is a difference. I don't why you think I meant otherwise.

I apologize, KBomb. We have almost the exact same perspectives. You made some good clarifications.

[Tirigon]

Sajji wrote...

I was never abused, but if I was bad, i got spanked. Even got the belt once or twice from dad for being really bad.

It's moronic not being able to spank your kids. There's an obvious and clear difference between spanking and abuse. Others think they can tell parents what to do...they have no f-ing clue. They just read a book and follow some self-righteous ethical perspective about theories some other bighead with self-righteous ethical perspectives wrote.

Kind of like bullying. These morons...they say that bullying is intolerable and that those being bullyed should be open and express their emotions, while simultaneously telling them not to stand up for themselves. I punched a kid in middle school because I was being bullyed, and I never was teased again. Nowadays, all that resentment and anger builds up inside and without an outlet for self-defense and / or sticking up for yourself with a clean fistfight, kids go off the wall and bring guns in and start popping people.

Brilliant ideology...

I think beating children should be outlawed and I still think if youre bullied you have a right to kick that f*cker in the balls (hehe I actually got in trouble in school once for kicking someone in the backside..... luckily my parents understood that I was right and backed me, and the f*cker never annoyed me again).

[Affrayer]

Tirigon wrote...

Caste system? No, where do you get this idea.

*Points to page 7 where you said keeping stupid people from breeding would be a good idea*

[KBomb]

Affrayer wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Caste system? No, where do you get this idea.

*Points to page 7 where you said keeping stupid people from breeding would be a good idea*

 
I don't see where she said “Keeping stupid people from having children is a good idea.”


She said, and I paraphrase, that in theory keeping people who are not emotionally or intellectually equipped o raise children from doing so may seem like a good idea, but that in practice it is unethical.


What she means that on the outside, it may seem like a good idea, but not one she'd support. She also said it was not an option for ethical reasons. She was more or less arguing the semantics of the theory.


It was someone else who said that it would be a good practice. You obviously misunderstood the exchange.

Modifié par KBomb, 21 mai 2012 - 12:39 .

[Volus Warlord]

Affrayer wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Caste system? No, where do you get this idea.

*Points to page 7 where you said keeping stupid people from breeding would be a good idea*

The true irony is.. stupid people tend to breed the fastest