587 réponses à ce sujet

[Ageless Face]

  Do you remember, pro-IT, why you thought about the indoctrnation theory in the first place? you were angry/sad/confused/lost becacuse of the ending. Don't get me wrong, I think the IT is quite brilliant. The problem is, If BioWare is going to make the IT, or take ideas from it to the EC, it's going to leave fans who didn't choose the destroy option at the same place you were, even worse if they don't like the ending as it is now.

It's not just the IT, but it did start mostly from there. Fans who wanted a happy ending, to have Shepard alive and make everyone live happily ever after. that's OK. But because you wanted you choice to be the right one, you practically screwed the people who chose a different option. By saying Shepard is indoctrinated, or the Catalyst was lying, you said that we played it wrong. And i don't want this statement to be true.

What about the fans who wanted to control an army of machines? What about the fans who wanted to create a new DNA? Hell, some want Shepard to have a noble and sad death! Why for you to have a happy ending of your own, others can't get their sort of happy ending? The point of the final choice is for the player to decide what will happen. There is no right choice exept what you believe is right. Mass Effect is a game of Moral choices. Not tactics.

Resentment to the choices of control or synthesis because of a moral question, that I will understand. But most of the time it doesn't seem this way. You simply dissmissing the choices to make your points the correct ones. And that is wrong.

If BioWare planned the IT from the start, then I guess I can't do anything about it. But let's be real: If BioWare will do the EC based on the IT, it wil be because the fans asked for it.
What concren me the most, is because so many fans wants the destroy ending to be the right choice, BioWare will answer they're demands and will make the destroy option as the "good choice", while leaving the other fans aside. You may think I am overreacting, but I don't believe I am. Mass Effect 3, as good game as it is, is a game for what the majority of people in the BSN forums thought was best to place in. Casey Hudson admitted it, if I remember corrently. And many times in the game it was proven to be true.

I'm asking from the Pro-IT, who have much power in these forums, to be more considerate of other fans, not just the majority and yourself. Because the EC is the chance for BioWare to prove themselves for many, many fans. I'm going to play the EC when it comes out, because i'm also not happy with certain things in the ending. Maybe I stand alone in this opinion, but the EC becoming a Pro-destroy, an option i really don't want my game to end in, will make the end a dissapointment for me much more than it is now.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 19 mai 2012 - 07:00 .

[daecath]

Why should the ending be any different than the rest of the game? If you decided to be a renegade and destroy the research in ME2, Eve dies in ME3. If you decided not to save the geth in ME2, you can't unite the geth & quarians in ME3. Choice and consequence.

Personally, I wouldn't make it so that the game ends with Shepard being indoctrinated if you picked the other two, but I would make there be a consequence for going along with the reapers. You just got through telling the Illusive Man that controlling the reapers was stupid, but some glowing kid claims that he made the reapers, and he'll let you do it just because you made it there, and you'll believe him? Or synthesis? I know it was two years ago but you really think it's a good idea to follow Saren's plan just because the reaper king likes it? So yeah, I wouldn't make either of those be a game ending mistake, but you should take a penalty of some kind. Just like destroying the research means Eve dies, picking synthesis means you might make a costly mistake later on in the real ending and someone pays for it.

Of course, I think the odds that they'll do IT are pretty low, so there's probably nothing to worry about.

[ForumHelper]

The problem here is the fact that it is "destroy" option that shows someone breathing under a pile of concrete. No other ending does this. It gets even stranger.

What if it was BioWare's plan all along? What if they wanted to see how many of us would stick to the primary objective(that was to kill the reapers)? There was a thread somewhere about a "legacysave" filetype, which(according to that thread) is probably holding our first choice(it doesn't get overwritten if you beat the ending again, at least that's what we knew at the time I read it).

I don't want to defend IT, however to me it seems to be the best way out of this mess that BioWare made. Whether it was their plan or not, the fact is only "destroy" shows us someone(Might be Shepard) from N7 team surviving.

Now, if IT is correct, it would be a good idea to give us yet another chance to break out of indoctrination(it could be a talk with LI or a different squadmate). Chances are BioWare will stick to their so called artistic integrity and we won't see any of it any time soon. I chose synthesis first time, not destroy. While destroying reapers was important, I couldn't just wipe all machines, not after what Legion did. Removing them seemed bad to me. I fully understand why you wouldn't like EC to show "destroy" as the only option that gives the best outcome and I agree with you. I believe it should be our choices from ME1, ME2 and ME3 + the ending combined.

Modifié par SarKter, 17 mai 2012 - 09:15 .

[Ageless Face]

daecath wrote...

Why should the ending be any different than the rest of the game? If you decided to be a renegade and destroy the research in ME2, Eve dies in ME3. If you decided not to save the geth in ME2, you can't unite the geth & quarians in ME3. Choice and consequence.

Personally, I wouldn't make it so that the game ends with Shepard being indoctrinated if you picked the other two, but I would make there be a consequence for going along with the reapers. You just got through telling the Illusive Man that controlling the reapers was stupid, but some glowing kid claims that he made the reapers, and he'll let you do it just because you made it there, and you'll believe him? Or synthesis? I know it was two years ago but you really think it's a good idea to follow Saren's plan just because the reaper king likes it? So yeah, I wouldn't make either of those be a game ending mistake, but you should take a penalty of some kind. Just like destroying the research means Eve dies, picking synthesis means you might make a costly mistake later on in the real ending and someone pays for it.

Of course, I think the odds that they'll do IT are pretty low, so there's probably nothing to worry about.

Synthesis has it ups and downs already. With control, i agree there should be a consequence, because there doesn't seem to be one.

Maybe the IT will not be in the EC, but if things will keep going as they do, Anyone who will choose destroy will have a pairytale ending, while control and synthesis would end with the reapers dancing on Shepard's grave.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 17 mai 2012 - 09:21 .

[nlag]

HagarIshay wrote...
  Do you remember, pro-IT, why you thought about the indoctrnation theory in the first place? you were angry/sad/confused/lost becacuse of the ending. Don't get me wrong, I think the IT is quite brilliant. The problem is, If BioWare is going to make the IT, or take ideas from it to the EC, it's going to leave fans who didn't choose the destroy option at the same place you were, even worse if they don't like the ending as it is now.

Let's be hypothetical here and lets say that Bioware planned IT from the beginning.

What people don't understand imho is that all 3 choices will play a part even if the IT is correct. The fact that you got Indoctrinated by choosing Control ending.

I will make a really poor and brief example... i apologize but i will make it as simple as i can.

what if IT is correct:

Bioware will release a DLC which will continue after your last choice.
Shepard wakes up and he is either Indoctrinated or not, depending on your initial choice right?

So the character is playable but you wont be able to choose some dialogue options.
Some of those options will be for indoctrinated Shepards and some not.
Imagine it like a Paragon/Renegade option which one of the two will be grayed out.

Now who sais that even in Indoctrinated Shepard case, Shepard wont be able to release himself or overcome the Indoctrination?

Think about it... thank you for reading.

[Plouton]

why you thought about the indoctrnation theory in the first place? you were angry/sad/confused/lost becacuse of the ending.
....................
But let's be real: If BioWare will do the EC based on the IT, it wil be because the fans asked for it.

It's false assumptions. Not only the ending but also many other events in the game have much more sense in IT context. Personally, I was thinking about possibility of Shepard's indoctrination since ME2:Arrival - two days in unconscious state near the Reaper artifact and awakening "just in time" is a little suspicious, you know.

Also IT says that ending is a hallucination (or virtual reality) but does not say what "real" ending is. So EC still can be basically anything even if IT will be confirmed.

[Ageless Face]

nlag wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...
  Do you remember, pro-IT, why you thought about the indoctrnation theory in the first place? you were angry/sad/confused/lost becacuse of the ending. Don't get me wrong, I think the IT is quite brilliant. The problem is, If BioWare is going to make the IT, or take ideas from it to the EC, it's going to leave fans who didn't choose the destroy option at the same place you were, even worse if they don't like the ending as it is now.

Let's be hypothetical here and lets say that Bioware planned IT from the beginning.

What people don't understand imho is that all 3 choices will play a part even if the IT is correct. The fact that you got Indoctrinated by choosing Control ending.

I will make a really poor and brief example... i apologize but i will make it as simple as i can.

what if IT is correct:

Bioware will release a DLC which will continue after your last choice.
Shepard wakes up and he is either Indoctrinated or not, depending on your initial choice right?

So the character is playable but you wont be able to choose some dialogue options.
Some of those options will be for indoctrinated Shepards and some not.
Imagine it like a Paragon/Renegade option which one of the two will be grayed out.

Now who sais that even in Indoctrinated Shepard case, Shepard wont be able to release himself or overcome the Indoctrination?

Think about it... thank you for reading.

And that is what i'm talking about. Why Does destroy can only be right? Why cant what i think is the best option wil make everything good and all other options will resolt in Shepard indoctrinated. I want to feel that I won the battle, even if my Shep has to die because of it. The ending didn't give me that, so i'm waiting for the EC. And i still want to believe my choices were as good as the others, as well as bad as them.

[nlag]

And that is what i'm talking about. Why Does destroy can only be right? Why cant what i think is the best option wil make everything good and all other options will resolt in Shepard indoctrinated. I want to feel that I won the battle, even if my Shep has to die because of it. The ending didn't give me that, so i'm waiting for the EC. And i still
want to believe my choices were as good as the others, as well as bad as them.

Hypothetical about IT being correct again:

We wont really know if we don't see the real ending. For example they may write about Indoctrination being the right choice and the fact that Shepard with his extraordinary WILL will be able to destroy the Reapers from the inside-out, while the ones who didn't get Indoctrinated will have more issues to deal with.

Its up to the writers.

WHO KNOWS???? I try to think all the possibilities here... i may be wrong.

Modifié par nlag, 17 mai 2012 - 10:06 .

[Gorkan86]

Plouton wrote...

Also IT says that ending is a hallucination (or virtual reality) but does not say what "real" ending is. So EC still can be basically anything even if IT will be confirmed.

If the EC can prove that the current ending is not a hallucination then you can forget IT.
But IT supporters can calmly say that the EC is also a hallucination. Deadlock.

[ShepnTali]

Which is why I don't think they should have bothered with endgame choices. I'd rather our personal endings were based strictly on our web of big choices, even if a slide show was the only possible way to do it.


When I played Marvel Ultimate Alliance, a linear, very few choices, finite ending, action RPG, I was shocked to see a well detailed slideshow at the end, showing me how universe changing my choice or otherwise seemingly trivial actions were. Perfect fit for the likes of ME3.

[Icinix]

I lost my mako, my elevators, my overheating guns, my dialogue choices, my meaningful choices, my side quests and my mini games.




Where was consideration then?

[Icinix]

ShepnTali wrote...

Which is why I don't think they should have bothered with endgame choices. I'd rather our personal endings were based strictly on our web of big choices, even if a slide show was the only possible way to do it.


When I played Marvel Ultimate Alliance, a linear, very few choices, finite ending, action RPG, I was shocked to see a well detailed slideshow at the end, showing me how universe changing my choice or otherwise seemingly trivial actions were. Perfect fit for the likes of ME3.

This would be awesome. Is rather than a big ending choice that undid or cancelled out choices made, the end game plays out compared to the decisions you made.

Which is where I tend to lean with indoctrination theory. I believe all choices led to Shepard waking up, not just Destroy, but the choice you make (RGB) will have an affect on what happens after you wake up and where your choices come into play.

[Ageless Face]

Icinix wrote...

I lost my mako, my elevators, my overheating guns, my dialogue choices, my meaningful choices, my side quests and my mini games.




Where was consideration then?

And you felt sad when you didn't get them, right? you feel angry and dissapointed becuase no one heard your plee.

You don't want others to be sad you are, do you?  :innocent:

[Icinix]

HagarIshay wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I lost my mako, my elevators, my overheating guns, my dialogue choices, my meaningful choices, my side quests and my mini games.




Where was consideration then?

And you felt sad when you didn't get them, right? you feel angry and dissapointed becuase no one heard your plee.

You don't want others to be sad you are, do you?  :innocent:

..yes. Yes I do.

More than that though.
I want revenge 

[Ieldra]

I hear you, HagarIshay, I hear you. This attempt to enshrine their preferred choice as canonically right is the main reason why I hate IT so much and call the people who say "Destroy is the only option, those who don't choose it are indoctrinated" fundamentalists with a totalitarian mindset, and will continue to do so.

I don't have such an an issue with IT variants that don't lean towards a "right" choice in any way, though I still think they're nothing more but conspiracy theories with no compelling evidence whatsoever.

[christrek1982]

I never asked for IT I just asked for the chance of a happy ending the choice something to play towards something to earn a reward you know to go with the whole game thing.

[christrek1982]

Icinix wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I lost my mako, my elevators, my overheating guns, my dialogue choices, my meaningful choices, my side quests and my mini games.




Where was consideration then?

And you felt sad when you didn't get them, right? you feel angry and dissapointed becuase no one heard your plee.

You don't want others to be sad you are, do you?  :innocent:

..yes. Yes I do.

More than that though.
I want revenge 

yeh bring back all of those thing used to hate the maco guess you dono what you got till its gone.

[MisterJB]

I couldn't agree more.

[Noelemahc]

When I played Marvel Ultimate Alliance, a linear, very few choices, finite ending, action RPG, I was shocked to see a well detailed slideshow at the end, showing me how universe changing my choice or otherwise seemingly trivial actions were. Perfect fit for the likes of ME3.

The fun part was that while most alternatives had a "positive" and "negative" outcome, one had a double negative -- save Jean Grey, Xavier will die; save Nightcrawler, the Dark Phoenix will bang up the universe. About the only consoling thing would be that the Dark Phoenix will bang up the universe sooner or later ANYWAY, but you had to be at least vaguely aware of the comics to know that =)

But yeah, the point is, we would've minded the endings a lot less if they had bothered to explain HOW all of the things we did, up to and including the final choice, affected the universe, instead of showing us how our team betrays us, doesn't miss us and, what's worse, violating the tethercat principle with the Arrival-explained demolition of relays. The problem is that they made a cliffhanger, NOT an ending, which is rather fahrbot when you consider that making three and a half insanely differing galaxy states (actually a bit more, depending on whether the Urth survives) means that for a sequel to happen, they'd need to settle on a canon one... or retcon the three outcomes into one somehow, as the Literary Agent Hypothesis allows via the Stargazer. So ME4 will begin with Shepard waking up on Eden Prime after touching the Prothean Beacon and describing the most insane dream... after which we play someone else while Shep gets locked in a mental institution =)

(Clarifications: not an IT supporter, anti-ender nonetheless, see fan ****** in signature links)

Modifié par Noelemahc, 17 mai 2012 - 10:45 .

[dreman9999]

 1.
So no one sees that indoctrination is happening to Shepard even if we take the plot as it is?http://social.biowar.../index/11972753 

2.
 (Note an IT video)

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 mai 2012 - 10:45 .

[dreman9999]

christrek1982 wrote...

I never asked for IT I just asked for the chance of a happy ending the choice something to play towards something to earn a reward you know to go with the whole game thing.

I don'tthink asking for that for a minimum is reasonable. A clear ending isall that is needed.

[KevShep]

Gorkan86 wrote...

Plouton wrote...

Also IT says that ending is a hallucination (or virtual reality) but does not say what "real" ending is. So EC still can be basically anything even if IT will be confirmed.

If the EC can prove that the current ending is not a hallucination then you can forget IT.
But IT supporters can calmly say that the EC is also a hallucination. Deadlock.

No we do not support it the I.T. for no reason, there are facts to back it up. Granted that the facts STILL have speculation in them, they still point right at indoctrination. Some where inbetween the facts and speculation some people get confused.

[KevShep]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I hear you, HagarIshay, I hear you. This attempt to enshrine their preferred choice as canonically right is the main reason why I hate IT so much and call the people who say "Destroy is the only option, those who don't choose it are indoctrinated" fundamentalists with a totalitarian mindset, and will continue to do so.

I don't have such an an issue with IT variants that don't lean towards a "right" choice in any way, though I still think they're nothing more but conspiracy theories with no compelling evidence whatsoever.

 maybe your so cought up in hating the I.T. that you keep yourself from seeing the evidence. Just guesing by the way.

[Gorkan86]

KevShep wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I hear you, HagarIshay, I hear you. This attempt to enshrine their preferred choice as canonically right is the main reason why I hate IT so much and call the people who say "Destroy is the only option, those who don't choose it are indoctrinated" fundamentalists with a totalitarian mindset, and will continue to do so.

I don't have such an an issue with IT variants that don't lean towards a "right" choice in any way, though I still think they're nothing more but conspiracy theories with no compelling evidence whatsoever.

 maybe your so cought up in hating the I.T. that you keep yourself from seeing the evidence. Just guesing by the way.

Some things look different to different people. For example what you considered to be a proof for the other is not.

[MisterJB]

dreman9999 wrote...

 1.
So no one sees that indoctrination is happening to Shepard even if we take the plot as it is?http://social.biowar.../index/11972753 

2.
 (Note an IT video)

Missing the point of the thread much?