587 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

no. I want IT, because it makes for good story. so what if there are consequences for your decisions? your decisions would be worthless if there weren't consequences.

[KingZayd]

dreman9999 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

I'll admit, I enjoy the elegance and thought put into IT. Heck, I'd love BioWare to use it. But that is only if they want to and feel like that's the story they want to tell, and that it works on the grounds of inclusion, not exclusion.

Most IT people want there to be a way for everyone to get action in an ITcentric EC. Yes, there are issues with lore, but let's face it: We don't know everything about indoctrination. We've seen exceptions to the rules before.

Maybe a few are going about that the other choices are "wrong" and that it's fine that people get left out of new content for those choices, but most aren't so narrow-minded. While I do like that you're trying to be very open about it and I sympathize with your concern, it seems a bit misdirected.

....We never seen exceptions to the rules of indocriantion at all.

Shiala.  We've also seen variables in indoctrinated behavior and resistance.  Point is, we don't know all the rules.  Something that the lore elitists tend to forget.  I'm not trying to argue that indoctrination won't leave Shepard a blithering zombie, but I'm not arguing for it either.  It's BioWare's story on that front.

Shiala is explained. Thorian spores over rode it. And risistence is based on will. We know the rules. It been stated in the lore, game and books. The only thing we don't know is how much exposer it take for it to get started and how soon to takes hold...That is based on the person.

Saren was implanted and further indoctrinated after virmire because he started having doubts. Why do so, if it wasn't possible to resist?

[EnvyTB075]

Its funny how most of the detractors of IT make it out to be some sort of a cult when it really is just a method of trying to make sense of the endings whilst keeping within the confines of what is possible within the Mass Effect universe without pulling a BioWare "space magic" scenario.

There is a reason why its so popular. Its feasible and is constructed from evidence provided within the game and the codex. How hard is this for people to understand?

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 18 mai 2012 - 01:41 .

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

kumquats wrote...

So when Shepard only has control as an option you a. failed the game and b. the Starchild is pissed at Shepard, because the Reapers can only win?
Yes, that sounds legit to me.

Do you know howmany time low ems has been explain? 
The reapers don't need to try and trick you becausethey are not in a hurry. They haveall the time in the world to force indoctrination.

[KingZayd]

kookie28 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
For one, the idea that the other 2 choices are lie did not come form IT. It was though up before the theory. Itr based on a dev comment"How do you know the starkid is telling the truth?"

Added I already argued many time that the 2 other endings a reaper traps even with out IT.

And there was also the comment "I don't think Destroy is the best option" (Mike Gamble on Twitter).

That the other two choices are traps is your interpretation, nothing more. It's no more valid than my interpretation that they're not. Actually, it's less valid, because all choices end the Reaper threat. The game says so. The Catalyst says so. No inconsistency here. Dismissing both is a sign of denial. I think there's no way around accepting as a fact that IT was not intended from the start.

Which means that you're lobbying for a retcon that will ruin others' games. I still can't quite believe you see nothing wrong with ruining others' games. Intentionally and with full knowledge of what you're doing.

1. We don't no the context of that comment...It can also state one is more dramatic then the other like a player fells that allow a characters optional death is more dramatic.

2.Why do you trust the star child some much? Is there a reason why your giving him so much power overyou and you dession?In both options you giving him somemuch control over your fate.

How do you know shooting that pipe destroys the Reapers?  How do you know that's not just an explosive filled pipe that the Catalyst prepared moments before you arrived?  He could've been tricking you into blowing yourself up.

That's a good question. You see it in your mind as a way to activate the Crucible, conveniently after the Starchild mentions destruction. Where does that vision come from? To me, it seems as if that image was beamed from the Starchild itself (if the scene is real), in which case the Starchild can make you see things. If it didn't come from the Starchild, then he never told you how to destroy the reapers. All he told you was that the peace won't last.. synthetics etc.

And we don't know shooting the pipe will destroy the reapers. In fact, according to IT, it doesn't. All the choice does before you wake up is determine your mental state when you wake up.

[dreman9999]

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

I'll admit, I enjoy the elegance and thought put into IT. Heck, I'd love BioWare to use it. But that is only if they want to and feel like that's the story they want to tell, and that it works on the grounds of inclusion, not exclusion.

Most IT people want there to be a way for everyone to get action in an ITcentric EC. Yes, there are issues with lore, but let's face it: We don't know everything about indoctrination. We've seen exceptions to the rules before.

Maybe a few are going about that the other choices are "wrong" and that it's fine that people get left out of new content for those choices, but most aren't so narrow-minded. While I do like that you're trying to be very open about it and I sympathize with your concern, it seems a bit misdirected.

....We never seen exceptions to the rules of indocriantion at all.

Shiala.  We've also seen variables in indoctrinated behavior and resistance.  Point is, we don't know all the rules.  Something that the lore elitists tend to forget.  I'm not trying to argue that indoctrination won't leave Shepard a blithering zombie, but I'm not arguing for it either.  It's BioWare's story on that front.

Shiala is explained. Thorian spores over rode it. And risistence is based on will. We know the rules. It been stated in the lore, game and books. The only thing we don't know is how much exposer it take for it to get started and how soon to takes hold...That is based on the person.

Saren was implanted and further indoctrinated after virmire because he started having doubts. Why do so, if it wasn't possible to resist?

Who says it's not possible to resist. It can be resisted after indoctrination, it's just harder to do. Look at Benezia. It all about will. A strong enough ill can resist indoctrination, based on the stage of it, the time the person can resist is shortened.

[EnvyTB075]

Just a point, it was claimed in the lead up to release (though we know how reliable that is) that it was possible for Shepard to lose against the Reapers.

If that were the case, then "losing" the game would be a legitimate ending.

[kumquats]

dreman9999 wrote...
Do you know howmany time low ems has been explain? 
The reapers don't need to try and trick you becausethey are not in a hurry. They haveall the time in the world to force indoctrination.

So the Child is pissed off at Shepard, because they have all the time in the world? No doesn't make any sense.

[KingZayd]

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

I'll admit, I enjoy the elegance and thought put into IT. Heck, I'd love BioWare to use it. But that is only if they want to and feel like that's the story they want to tell, and that it works on the grounds of inclusion, not exclusion.

Most IT people want there to be a way for everyone to get action in an ITcentric EC. Yes, there are issues with lore, but let's face it: We don't know everything about indoctrination. We've seen exceptions to the rules before.

Maybe a few are going about that the other choices are "wrong" and that it's fine that people get left out of new content for those choices, but most aren't so narrow-minded. While I do like that you're trying to be very open about it and I sympathize with your concern, it seems a bit misdirected.

....We never seen exceptions to the rules of indocriantion at all.

Shiala.  We've also seen variables in indoctrinated behavior and resistance.  Point is, we don't know all the rules.  Something that the lore elitists tend to forget.  I'm not trying to argue that indoctrination won't leave Shepard a blithering zombie, but I'm not arguing for it either.  It's BioWare's story on that front.

Shiala is explained. Thorian spores over rode it. And risistence is based on will. We know the rules. It been stated in the lore, game and books. The only thing we don't know is how much exposer it take for it to get started and how soon to takes hold...That is based on the person.

Saren was implanted and further indoctrinated after virmire because he started having doubts. Why do so, if it wasn't possible to resist?

Who says it's not possible to resist. It can be resisted after indoctrination, it's just harder to do. Look at Benezia. It all about will. A strong enough ill can resist indoctrination, based on the stage of it, the time the person can resist is shortened.

Anti-ITers were claiming it wasn't possible. My point was that it has been established that Saren-level people (at the very least) are capable of resisting. 

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 mai 2012 - 01:49 .

[dreman9999]

kumquats wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Do you know howmany time low ems has been explain? 
The reapers don't need to try and trick you becausethey are not in a hurry. They haveall the time in the world to force indoctrination.

So the Child is pissed off at Shepard, because they have all the time in the world? No doesn't make any sense.

No. The star child is pissed off because  much of their plans  were messed up by orgainics this cycle. It's a "how dare you" anger. This is his true feeling for organics.

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 mai 2012 - 01:54 .

[Scam_poo]

No, I wasn't angry/sad/confused/lost, I was impressed and amazed.

[kumquats]

dreman9999 wrote...
No. The star child is pissed off because  much of their plans  were messed up by orgainics this cycle. It's a "how dare you" anger. This is his true feeling for organics.

And it's angry in the low EMS why?

[dreman9999]

kumquats wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
No. The star child is pissed off because  much of their plans  were messed up by orgainics this cycle. It's a "how dare you" anger. This is his true feeling for organics.

And it's angry in the low EMS why?

Because he doesn't need to fake it. Think of it this why, why  is he nicer at the high ems when he's trying to convince you to make a certin choice?

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 mai 2012 - 02:12 .

[Cadence of the Planes]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Its funny how most of the detractors of IT make it out to be some sort of a cult when it really is just a method of trying to make sense of the endings whilst keeping within the confines of what is possible within the Mass Effect universe without pulling a BioWare "space magic" scenario.

There is a reason why its so popular. Its feasible and is constructed from evidence provided within the game and the codex. How hard is this for people to understand?

[KingZayd]

kumquats wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Do you know howmany time low ems has been explain? 
The reapers don't need to try and trick you becausethey are not in a hurry. They haveall the time in the world to force indoctrination.

So the Child is pissed off at Shepard, because they have all the time in the world? No doesn't make any sense.

This being the imaginary child? it doesn't have to be connected to the outside world, it has the information in Shepard's mind to deal with.

I personally have another explanation for the low EMS thing. If you have just rushed the game and ended up with such a low EMS at the end in London, then you've basically acted like Vega Shepard. The indoctrination uses your mind and memories to form the simulation (hence all that familiar looking scenery). 

Harbinger's blast doesn't start indoctrination, nor was it meant to. What was meant to, was Object Rho. But Shepard's still fighting, it doesn't make sense to wait for the indoctrination to kick in. So Harby tries to kill everyone. Shepard is blasted near to death, and is unconscious, weakened mentally and physically. He's unconscious, and weakened, so he dreams, but this time the Reaper taint is able to mold the dream more effectively so it appears more real (think of it almost as lucid dream, but you have a different personality inside your head with an agenda and that's the part that has knows it's a dream).

Again, the options are taken from Shepard's mind. However, Vega Shepard is so pig-headed, that he'll never consider any alternatives other than destroy. Congratulations, Vega Shepard! you managed to resist indoctrination! Still doesn't change the fact that you're unconscious, having been blasted near to death by Harbinger in London, without much millitary support. Good luck actually beating the reapers.

[Ageless Face]

KingZayd wrote...

no. I want IT, because it makes for good story. so what if there are consequences for your decisions? your decisions would be worthless if there weren't consequences.

You want it? fine. That is why I dont say to you to stop worshipping this. Just to be more considerate while doing that.

and IT is a theory that saying that if you had a high EMS in destroy, then you win in the game. You can do no wrong.There are no consequences by picking that choice. If i don't agree with the choice, then all the game will be ruined for me, and all people will say to me when the EC will come out is "deal with it".  

[Cadence of the Planes]

HagarIshay wrote...

KevShep wrote...


the fact that it eliminates choice at the end and why the endings are the same is more suggesting that the I.T. is true.

Assuming that the endings were different and that they all were really awsome... Why would the devs put so much into the current endings if it wasthe I.T.? But...we see the same kind of endings no matter what, this tells me that the devs copy and paste because its just a dream. The point is that they did NOT spend time on the ending, so this seems to suggest that it is a dream.

You are missing the point. I don't want to debate whether the IT is true. I want that my choice will be equal to any other choice if i did everything right throughout the game. There is no reason for only one choice to be right when you are giving three options, which none of them is by the look of it is better than the other.
We should be giving Choices in a game like ME. Not one road that lead to the destination, and the others are falling from a cliff on rocks. 

You're making the assumption that Control and Synthesis are necessarily bad choices if IT is true. You're making the assumption that Control and Synthesis is 'autolose' while Destruction is 'autowin.' 

Who knows? Maybe in the EC, Control and Synthesis have different arcs which take Shepard down a different path ... perhaps the path includes the chance to 'get back to your senses,' etc. You don't know what the writers have planned.

Your assumptions are used as a launching pad for your outrage. Wait and see what the EC is really like before you start crying foul.

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

no. I want IT, because it makes for good story. so what if there are consequences for your decisions? your decisions would be worthless if there weren't consequences.

You want it? fine. That is why I dont say to you to stop worshipping this. Just to be more considerate while doing that.

and IT is a theory that saying that if you had a high EMS in destroy, then you win in the game. You can do no wrong.There are no consequences by picking that choice. If i don't agree with the choice, then all the game will be ruined for me, and all people will say to me when the EC will come out is "deal with it".  

For one, the idea that the other 2 choices are lie did not come form IT. It was though up before the theory. It's based on a dev comment"How do you know the starkid is telling the truth?"

Added I already argued many time that the 2 other endings a reaper traps even with out IT.

Also, you have to think of it like this...Do remeber this scene for princess bride?
 

Why did the bad guy lose? It was because he let the hero set the ruls of the game. He did not know about the hero's immunity to the posion the hero usedin the battle of wits. Let the hero set the game wasthe moment the villian lost.
Not think of it the same way as the star kid...He makes the offer, and when selected who selects how the choice is applied?
In synthesis, want is stopping the child from using the crucible and put thing into organic that can be used to control them?
Incontrol, what does"You will die. You can control us but lose everything you have" mean? And who controls what is  lost during the up load?

So really, is there a reason to trust the star child? 
The problem with the other 2 choicesis is that you giving the starchild too much control over the out come.

[kumquats]

dreman9999 wrote...

Because he doesn't need to fake it. Think of it this why, why would  is he nicer at the high ems when he's trying to convince you to make a certin choice?

Destroy low EMS and Control low EMS, has the SAME dialogue. The Starchild is angry and pessimistic.
Do you now want to make two different interpretations for the same dialogue?
Don't you realize, that you are bending what's in the game, so that it suits your opinion?
That is what the OP is talking about.

IT is brilliant, but stop stabbing everyone else in the back who likes Synth and Control.

Btw. German Magazins wrote pre-Release, that the Reapers can't win in ME3, maybe they are indoctrinated, too.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

kumquats wrote...

So when Shepard only has control as an option you a. failed the game and b. the Starchild is pissed at Shepard, because the Reapers can only win?
Yes, that sounds legit to me.

Do you know howmany time low ems has been explain? 
The reapers don't need to try and trick you becausethey are not in a hurry. They haveall the time in the world to force indoctrination.

That. Doesn't. Make. Sense.

Why would the reapers be in a hurry to indoc Shep with high EMS but not with low?

[KingZayd]

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

no. I want IT, because it makes for good story. so what if there are consequences for your decisions? your decisions would be worthless if there weren't consequences.

You want it? fine. That is why I dont say to you to stop worshipping this. Just to be more considerate while doing that.

and IT is a theory that saying that if you had a high EMS in destroy, then you win in the game. You can do no wrong.There are no consequences by picking that choice. If i don't agree with the choice, then all the game will be ruined for me, and all people will say to me when the EC will come out is "deal with it".  

No. IT isn't. It said that there was more to come, where we would see what happened after that choice. You can do wrong. There are still consequences for all the other choices you've made. There are no bad consequences for choosing to shoot TIM are there?

In fact, (unless Bioware comes up with something nobody's thought of) if IT isn't in the EC, then the game would be ruined for me.  We want different things from the EC. It seems unless Bioware has a solution nobody else has thought of, that one of us will be unhappy with the results. 
Maybe you should be more considerate? 

[dreman9999]

kumquats wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Because he doesn't need to fake it. Think of it this why, why would  is he nicer at the high ems when he's trying to convince you to make a certin choice?

Destroy low EMS and Control low EMS, has the SAME dialogue. The Starchild is angry and pessimistic.
Do you now want to make two different interpretations for the same dialogue?
Don't you realize, that you are bending what's in the game, so that it suits your opinion?
That is what the OP is talking about.

IT is brilliant, but stop stabbing everyone else in the back who likes Synth and Control.

Btw. German Magazins wrote pre-Release, that the Reapers can't win in ME3, maybe they are indoctrinated, too.

I'm not bending it based on anything. My veiw on the ending is based on one concept...Don't trust the star child. That my view no matter the level. My problem with the other interpritations is that they all give the star child too much trust. That makes it flawed. There is no reason to trust him. Pick the other 2 choices gives him too much power over you. This is the guy who is in charge of the reapers.....Why would anyone trust him based on his history?

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 mai 2012 - 02:23 .

[Cadence of the Planes]

HagarIshay wrote...


You want it? fine. That is why I dont say to you to stop worshipping this. 

Ironic that you're taking this condescending tone towards those with views different from your own, yet your entire thread is about the 'egoism' of everyone who thinks IT is a valid explanation.

I like IT, and you don't - that's fine with me. It doesn't seem to be fine with you.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

kumquats wrote...

So when Shepard only has control as an option you a. failed the game and b. the Starchild is pissed at Shepard, because the Reapers can only win?
Yes, that sounds legit to me.

Do you know howmany time low ems has been explain? 
The reapers don't need to try and trick you becausethey are not in a hurry. They haveall the time in the world to force indoctrination.

That. Doesn't. Make. Sense.

Why would the reapers be in a hurry to indoc Shep with high EMS but not with low?

In high ems, the allied fleet is bigger. In LOW EMS...That  fleet can do much due to it's size.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

kumquats wrote...

So when Shepard only has control as an option you a. failed the game and b. the Starchild is pissed at Shepard, because the Reapers can only win?
Yes, that sounds legit to me.

Do you know howmany time low ems has been explain? 
The reapers don't need to try and trick you becausethey are not in a hurry. They haveall the time in the world to force indoctrination.

That. Doesn't. Make. Sense.

Why would the reapers be in a hurry to indoc Shep with high EMS but not with low?

In high ems, the allied fleet is bigger. In LOW EMS...That  fleet can do much due to it's size.

No matter how high your EMS is you are LOSING the fight. The reapers are in a hurry to do nothing other than destroy the crucible.