Isn't everyone an egoist here?
Pro-IT, don't you think you are being egotistical?
Débuté par
Ageless Face
, mai 17 2012 08:56
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#27
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 11:03
TsaiMeLemoni
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KevShep wrote...
No we do not support it the I.T. for no reason, there are facts to back it up. Granted that the facts STILL have speculation in them, they still point right at indoctrination. Some where inbetween the facts and speculation some people get confused.
If it's still speculation, then can you really call them facts? If there was solid hard proof, or facts supporting IT, then it would no longer be a theory imo, it would be the IF - Indocrination Fact.
#28
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 11:03
Lonsecia
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I know a person in real life who believes so much in IT that the last I spoke with them, they were satisfied with the ending because they 'knew' Bioware would deliver on the suggestions of IT they'd apparently put into the game. I like IT as headcanon, but to have that level of faith in it... Well, I just hope it doesn't cause him to end up crestfallen - which alas, it likely will.
Note to anyone thinking about how he might be naive or whatnot: His real life situation is pretty stressed, and I think he hoped that the game would deliver on what it felt like it would. So when it didn't, he, as with many, went here and found out about IT, which led a lot of people to just accept it as fact - probably people in the same kind of situation where they really need games to not feel like they made you waste your time playing even more than you did (technically) waste your time playing a game, when you could have been doing something else. I'm not saying I think playing games is a waste of time - certainly no more than anything else you do with your free time -, but rather people have a finite amount of free time, and for some it's such a short amount of free time that they need to know it's not been for nothing.
I think that's why most people playing wanted a happy ending. Or in the case of people like myself (and a fairly large number of others) that the sacrifice not seem so underwhelming. In part, it's one aspect of the the Indoctrination Theory I don't like (and the ending as it stands with no added canon). The one ending where it's implied you might die (the starchild's vague reference to being partially synthetic), and you can survive it.
Not that I particularly like any of the endings,. but at least those you do seem to die/cease to exist as Shepard.
Also, my headcanon for Synthesis is now along the lines of a Twilight Zone twist ending, where in order to get two sides to see the error of their ways, they're forced to become part of one another (in fact, there is a Twilight Zone where something like that happens, though for the life of me I can't remember the name - probably because it's been a good few years since I saw it).
I believe it was something more like a village/town that was divided by pettiness and hatred for one another (a bit like the Romeo and Juliet families fighting each other), and at the end, they couldn't actually differentiate between their allies or their enemies and so had to cease their feuding due to some spell or... something.... I can't remember, it's been so long >.<
Also not unlike a certain Doctor Seuss story. In fact the not being able to tell each other apart because they're no longer different is probably exclusively the Dr. Seuss story, and the Twilight Zone episode might have been close to strange hybrid monsters that had random features, meaning they were all monster/alien and human
So yeah, I kind of saw/see it as a cruel way to level the playing field across the universe (not saying I believe it's justified, just how I imagined my Shep, were she sold 100% on any ending, would have seen this one).
Note to anyone thinking about how he might be naive or whatnot: His real life situation is pretty stressed, and I think he hoped that the game would deliver on what it felt like it would. So when it didn't, he, as with many, went here and found out about IT, which led a lot of people to just accept it as fact - probably people in the same kind of situation where they really need games to not feel like they made you waste your time playing even more than you did (technically) waste your time playing a game, when you could have been doing something else. I'm not saying I think playing games is a waste of time - certainly no more than anything else you do with your free time -, but rather people have a finite amount of free time, and for some it's such a short amount of free time that they need to know it's not been for nothing.
I think that's why most people playing wanted a happy ending. Or in the case of people like myself (and a fairly large number of others) that the sacrifice not seem so underwhelming. In part, it's one aspect of the the Indoctrination Theory I don't like (and the ending as it stands with no added canon). The one ending where it's implied you might die (the starchild's vague reference to being partially synthetic), and you can survive it.
Not that I particularly like any of the endings,. but at least those you do seem to die/cease to exist as Shepard.
Also, my headcanon for Synthesis is now along the lines of a Twilight Zone twist ending, where in order to get two sides to see the error of their ways, they're forced to become part of one another (in fact, there is a Twilight Zone where something like that happens, though for the life of me I can't remember the name - probably because it's been a good few years since I saw it).
I believe it was something more like a village/town that was divided by pettiness and hatred for one another (a bit like the Romeo and Juliet families fighting each other), and at the end, they couldn't actually differentiate between their allies or their enemies and so had to cease their feuding due to some spell or... something.... I can't remember, it's been so long >.<
Also not unlike a certain Doctor Seuss story. In fact the not being able to tell each other apart because they're no longer different is probably exclusively the Dr. Seuss story, and the Twilight Zone episode might have been close to strange hybrid monsters that had random features, meaning they were all monster/alien and human
So yeah, I kind of saw/see it as a cruel way to level the playing field across the universe (not saying I believe it's justified, just how I imagined my Shep, were she sold 100% on any ending, would have seen this one).
#29
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 11:05
Vox Draco
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Well..IT or not..as far as I am concerned and as long as we are supposed to believe the events with star child as facts, both green and blue is agreeing with Reaper-thinking...therefore the silly choice to make...my opinion.
But in fact I would love to see a whole different approach with a potential expanded Ending...where ALL three choices are wrong...
Imagine: You make your choice, all that silliness with the normandy etc is shown...and then...shepard is waking up in front of the console, still weak...a med-team/infiltration team around her, sent by Hackett originally as Plan B to activate the crucible, together with your sqaddies...
As it turns out, the star child was indeed a "dream", a trick by Harbinger to prevent Shep from using the crucible...by sabotaging it. Destroy is simply destroy integral parts of the machine, control means manipulating it to hand it over to Reaper-Control, and Synthesis is sabotaging the crucible to use it as some super-indoctrination-device...no galaxy-shattering consequences at all...t least not in the way msot thought...
And now it is up to shep and her friends to find a last way out of this mess before the batle is lost. A race against time into the bowels of the citadel, where maybe with the help of the Keepers the damage done to the still docked crucible could be undone...fighting once more inside the citadel, destruction and death everywhere..much like in Dead Space 2...
Damn, I would love something like this...much more dramatic and climatic, as I see it. And it would have the benefit of denying most of traditional IT and also prove EVERYONE was wrong with defending a certain colour...
this would made me laugh so hard!
But in fact I would love to see a whole different approach with a potential expanded Ending...where ALL three choices are wrong...
Imagine: You make your choice, all that silliness with the normandy etc is shown...and then...shepard is waking up in front of the console, still weak...a med-team/infiltration team around her, sent by Hackett originally as Plan B to activate the crucible, together with your sqaddies...
As it turns out, the star child was indeed a "dream", a trick by Harbinger to prevent Shep from using the crucible...by sabotaging it. Destroy is simply destroy integral parts of the machine, control means manipulating it to hand it over to Reaper-Control, and Synthesis is sabotaging the crucible to use it as some super-indoctrination-device...no galaxy-shattering consequences at all...t least not in the way msot thought...
And now it is up to shep and her friends to find a last way out of this mess before the batle is lost. A race against time into the bowels of the citadel, where maybe with the help of the Keepers the damage done to the still docked crucible could be undone...fighting once more inside the citadel, destruction and death everywhere..much like in Dead Space 2...
Damn, I would love something like this...much more dramatic and climatic, as I see it. And it would have the benefit of denying most of traditional IT and also prove EVERYONE was wrong with defending a certain colour...
this would made me laugh so hard!
#30
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 11:32
Elyiia
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MisterJB wrote...
Missing the point of the thread much?dreman9999 wrote...
1.
So no one sees that indoctrination is happening to Shepard even if we take the plot as it is?http://social.biowar.../index/11972753
2.
(Note an IT video)
Missing the point, or proving it? :innocent:
#32
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 11:41
Ageless Face
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I don't want to start a war if the IT is true or false. Just know that by making your points, you have the power to ruin my game as well as others's. You want to believe IT? You have my blessing. But consider what I'm saying. Because if you will get everything you want, if destroy will be the only option for Shep to win the war, then you will sit and be happy while others will be much more upset than they were before.
Modifié par HagarIshay, 17 mai 2012 - 11:51 .
#33
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:01
christrek1982
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dreman9999 wrote...
I don'tthink asking for that for a minimum is reasonable. A clear ending isall that is needed.christrek1982 wrote...
I never asked for IT I just asked for the chance of a happy ending the choice something to play towards something to earn a reward you know to go with the whole game thing.
so are you saying that I'm asking for too much just to have one of the 16 or 4 ending to be a happy one?
#34
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:02
Silhouett3
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In one of the ME2 endings, Shepard dies, the game ends and credits roll. According to the reasoning of OP, shouldn't we also think Bioware abandoned those people who performed very poorly in ME2, by not making that character save importable to ME3?
#35
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:04
Noelemahc
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The universe didn't end. It was a valid ending with appropriate storyline continuation and sequel hooking, which entirely resolved what little of ME2's plot required resolution now that your entire crew is dead. It's just that that sequel never happened (Darkspawn Chronicle-style DLC maybe?).Silhouett3 wrote...
In one of the ME2 endings, Shepard dies, the game ends and credits roll. According to the reasoning of OP, shouldn't we also think Bioware abandoned those people who performed very poorly in ME2, by not making that character save importable to ME3?
The way the ME3 ending is shaped, the universe is frakked regardless of if Shepard lives or not.
Far as I'm concerned, that's what SHOULD happen. There should be a mega-uber-difficult-to-obtain marginally happy ending. What's worse, it's not that hard to add it without changing anything but the final scenes in the Citadel.so are you saying that I'm asking for too much just to have one of the 16 or 4 ending to be a happy one?
There should also, bluntly put, be more variations, regardless of them being happy or sad. Changes that go beyond the one multicoloured cutscene that is all that sets the existing "endings" apart, preferrably starting division before you even get to Earth.
Modifié par Noelemahc, 17 mai 2012 - 12:09 .
#36
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:07
Jadebaby
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HagarIshay wrote...
Do you remember, pro-IT, why you thought about the indoctrnation theory in the first place? you were angry/sad/confused/lost becacuse of the ending. Don't get me wrong, I think the IT is quite brilliant. The problem is, If BioWare is going to make the IT, or take ideas from it to the EC, it's going to leave fans who didn't choose the destroy option at the same place you were, even worse if they don't like the ending as it is now.
That's too bad, they fell for indoctrination.
#37
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:14
Silhouett3
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Noelemahc wrote...
The universe didn't end. It was a valid ending with appropriate storyline continuation and sequel hooking, which entirely resolved what little of ME2's plot required resolution now that your entire crew is dead. It's just that that sequel never happened (Darkspawn Chronicle-style DLC maybe?).Silhouett3 wrote...
In one of the ME2 endings, Shepard dies, the game ends and credits roll. According to the reasoning of OP, shouldn't we also think Bioware abandoned those people who performed very poorly in ME2, by not making that character save importable to ME3?
The way the ME3 ending is shaped, the universe is frakked regardless of if Shepard lives or not.
Wrong: The way the ME3 ending is shaped, the universe is either frakked or not frakked at all: "That never happened". Are your arguments really consistent with your own logic?
#38
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:14
OdanUrr
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Jade8aby88 wrote...
HagarIshay wrote...
Do you remember, pro-IT, why you thought about the indoctrnation theory in the first place? you were angry/sad/confused/lost becacuse of the ending. Don't get me wrong, I think the IT is quite brilliant. The problem is, If BioWare is going to make the IT, or take ideas from it to the EC, it's going to leave fans who didn't choose the destroy option at the same place you were, even worse if they don't like the ending as it is now.
That's too bad, they fell for indoctrination.
A bit condescending, aren't we?<_<
#39
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:16
lolerk53
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Bioware said that you better have a LI before the game launched.
But in the game, nothing says "YOU ARE SCREWED BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T ROMANTICALY INVOLVED WITH SOMEONE!".
Or even something smaller than that.
But no, nothing.
Maybe if you chose Control or Synthesis, your only chanse of breaking free of Indoc is have your LI talk you out of it?
A theory, is an explenation to a lot of facts.
For example - When you throw something in the air, it falls down. That is a fact.
A theory - Gravity is what pulling the object back.
And if you have a lot of these facts that support the theory, then you cant deny it.
Example - Evolution theory.
It has so much proof, that you cant deny it, but its still called a theory.
In IT case, you have a lot of things that someone needs to explain.
From all the facts that he can see, he assembles a theory.
But in the game, nothing says "YOU ARE SCREWED BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T ROMANTICALY INVOLVED WITH SOMEONE!".
Or even something smaller than that.
But no, nothing.
Maybe if you chose Control or Synthesis, your only chanse of breaking free of Indoc is have your LI talk you out of it?
TsaiMeLemoni wrote...
KevShep wrote...
No we do not support it the I.T. for no reason, there are facts to back it up. Granted that the facts STILL have speculation in them, they still point right at indoctrination. Some where inbetween the facts and speculation some people get confused.
If it's still speculation, then can you really call them facts? If there was solid hard proof, or facts supporting IT, then it would no longer be a theory imo, it would be the IF - Indocrination Fact.
A theory, is an explenation to a lot of facts.
For example - When you throw something in the air, it falls down. That is a fact.
A theory - Gravity is what pulling the object back.
And if you have a lot of these facts that support the theory, then you cant deny it.
Example - Evolution theory.
It has so much proof, that you cant deny it, but its still called a theory.
In IT case, you have a lot of things that someone needs to explain.
From all the facts that he can see, he assembles a theory.
Modifié par lolerk53, 17 mai 2012 - 12:22 .
#40
Guest_Arcian_*
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:16
Guest_Arcian_*
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That's what the Illuminati believers keep telling me when I tell them that their theories are bollocks.KevShep wrote...
maybe your so cought up in hating the I.T. that you keep yourself from seeing the evidence.Ieldra2 wrote...
I hear you, HagarIshay, I hear you. This attempt to enshrine their preferred choice as canonically right is the main reason why I hate IT so much and call the people who say "Destroy is the only option, those who don't choose it are indoctrinated" fundamentalists with a totalitarian mindset, and will continue to do so.
I don't have such an an issue with IT variants that don't lean towards a "right" choice in any way, though I still think they're nothing more but conspiracy theories with no compelling evidence whatsoever.
#41
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:17
hoodaticus
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Ah yes, "a little egoists", the egotistical IT theorists allegedly waiting in the bsn forums. We have dismissed that claim.
Modifié par hoodaticus, 17 mai 2012 - 12:19 .
#42
Guest_Arcian_*
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:18
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You can't break free from indoctrination, it's permanent.lolerk53 wrote...
Bioware said that you better have a LI before the game launched.
But in the game, nothing says "YOU ARE SCREWED BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T ROMANTICALY INVOLVED WITH SOMEONE!".
Or even something smaller than that.
But no, nothing.
Maybe if you chose Control or Synthesis, your only chanse of breaking free of Indoc is have your LI talk you out of it?
#43
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:24
lolerk53
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You can.Arcian wrote...
You can't break free from indoctrination, it's permanent.lolerk53 wrote...
Bioware said that you better have a LI before the game launched.
But in the game, nothing says "YOU ARE SCREWED BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T ROMANTICALY INVOLVED WITH SOMEONE!".
Or even something smaller than that.
But no, nothing.
Maybe if you chose Control or Synthesis, your only chanse of breaking free of Indoc is have your LI talk you out of it?
Infact its stated in the Codex that you do break free after months or years.
But Shepard is a strong willed person.
#44
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:29
Jadebaby
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OdanUrr wrote...
Jade8aby88 wrote...
HagarIshay wrote...
Do you remember, pro-IT, why you thought about the indoctrnation theory in the first place? you were angry/sad/confused/lost becacuse of the ending. Don't get me wrong, I think the IT is quite brilliant. The problem is, If BioWare is going to make the IT, or take ideas from it to the EC, it's going to leave fans who didn't choose the destroy option at the same place you were, even worse if they don't like the ending as it is now.
That's too bad, they fell for indoctrination.
A bit condescending, aren't we?<_<
That's not condescending. That's being ignorantly passionate in what I believe. I don't think anyone is dumber for not believing in IDT. But it doesn't mean I wont express my opinion.
#45
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:46
rev1976
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wrong - making you the egoist by your assumptionHagarIshay wrote...
Do you remember, pro-IT, why you thought about the indoctrnation theory in the first place? you were angry/sad/confused/lost becacuse of the ending. Don't get me wrong, I think the IT is quite brilliant. The problem is, If BioWare is going to make the IT, or take ideas from it to the EC, it's going to leave fans who didn't choose the destroy option at the same place you were, even worse if they don't like the ending as it is now.
i and many others saw the dreams etc as attempts at indoctrination on the first playthrough, before ever coming to the forums and finding that others throught the same
#46
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:58
elecmanexe001
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Well of course not, well unless your opinion is different then theirs.Russalka wrote...
Isn't everyone an egoist here?
rev1976 wrote...
wrong - making you the egoist by your assumption
i
and many others saw the dreams etc as attempts at indoctrination on the
first playthrough, before ever coming to the forums and finding that
others throught the same
Yea I was a bit sceptical about the dreams as I played as well. I mean they were not there just to be a nightmare there was more to it, IT or not.
Modifié par elecmanexe001, 17 mai 2012 - 01:00 .
#47
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:59
Dude_in_the_Room
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I feel the OP is trying to be insightful.
But doens't quite finish the race.
But doens't quite finish the race.
#48
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 12:59
tMc Tallgeese
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Consequences of your endgame decisions:
Control - The Reapers end the cycle and return to dark space under Shepard's command. His entire being is sacrificed to gain control. This does not mean the Reapers will not return in another 50,000 years, but does not mean they will.
Synthesis - The Crucible's energy beam combined with Shepard's DNA alters the genetic structure of all life creating an organic/synthetic form of life believed to be the final stage of evolution. Reapers believed to no longer be needed and the cycles can stop. Option requires Shepard's sacrifice in order for it to work. Easiest comparison of what new form of life would be is the Cylons from the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica. Appearances as a whole may not change drastically, but the genetic material of all life will share the organic/synthetic compound.
Destroy - Shepard releases the energy from the Crucible causing the Reapers to be wiped out and the relay network to be destroyed. This will set organics on their own path, but will require them to overcome several obstacles in order to re-establish the galactic civilization as they knew it. Shepard can survive based on EMS level and galactic readiness.
In each of the endings it is assumed by many that the "canon" of the energy released results in a series of supernovas that destroy all life. Nowhere is it mentioned that this is the case, not even in your codex. The codex is a living encyclopedia that is altered as you discover new information and is not absolute. The relay network's destruction does result in the galaxy's civilizations having to find a new method of space travel to continue on in the manner they are accustomed.
----End of Line----
Control - The Reapers end the cycle and return to dark space under Shepard's command. His entire being is sacrificed to gain control. This does not mean the Reapers will not return in another 50,000 years, but does not mean they will.
Synthesis - The Crucible's energy beam combined with Shepard's DNA alters the genetic structure of all life creating an organic/synthetic form of life believed to be the final stage of evolution. Reapers believed to no longer be needed and the cycles can stop. Option requires Shepard's sacrifice in order for it to work. Easiest comparison of what new form of life would be is the Cylons from the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica. Appearances as a whole may not change drastically, but the genetic material of all life will share the organic/synthetic compound.
Destroy - Shepard releases the energy from the Crucible causing the Reapers to be wiped out and the relay network to be destroyed. This will set organics on their own path, but will require them to overcome several obstacles in order to re-establish the galactic civilization as they knew it. Shepard can survive based on EMS level and galactic readiness.
In each of the endings it is assumed by many that the "canon" of the energy released results in a series of supernovas that destroy all life. Nowhere is it mentioned that this is the case, not even in your codex. The codex is a living encyclopedia that is altered as you discover new information and is not absolute. The relay network's destruction does result in the galaxy's civilizations having to find a new method of space travel to continue on in the manner they are accustomed.
----End of Line----
#49
Posté 17 mai 2012 - 01:00
Noelemahc
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Wait, what?Silhouett3 wrote...
Wrong: The way the ME3 ending is shaped, the universe is either frakked or not frakked at all: "That never happened". Are your arguments really consistent with your own logic?
Red Bad: Earth gone, all organic life gone, everything else irrelevant.
Red Decent: Earth gone, Reapers gone, Shepard gone, relays gone, galaxy in horrible mess.
Red Good: Earth OK, Reapers gone, Shepard gone, relays gone, galaxy in horrible mess
Red Best: Earth OK, Reapers gone, Shepard lies bleeding under rubble, galaxy in horrible mess.
Blue Bad: Earth gone, Reapers pacified for unspecified period of time, relays may or may not be gone, galaxy in questionable flux.
Blue Good: Earth OK, Reapers pacified for unspecified period of time, relays may or may not be gone, galaxy in questionable flux.
Green: Earth OK, Reapers pacified for unspecificed period of time, relays gone, all organics forcibly converted into synthetics, galaxy in horrible mess AND questionable flux.
Now which of these is "not frakked at all" assuming IT is not true? Control-High EMS?
Also, which "that never happened" did you mean? My reference to the lack of a ME3 that builds on the premise that Shepard's entire crew, including Shepard, perished in the Suicide Mission? It really never happened, unless the Shepard that did Arrival and went through ME3 was just some lookalike actor hired by the Alliance to cover up the fact that the real Shepard died beyond the Omega-4 relay. This would also explain the autodialogue and lack of recognition of some prior endeavours - it was a different person all along!
The closest we got to such a sequel was the Red Ending of Arrival (which assumed that your crew survived the SM, but demonstrated what a curbstomp the galaxy would suffer without Shepard and with the Alpha Relay operational).
Modifié par Noelemahc, 17 mai 2012 - 01:02 .
