587 réponses à ce sujet

[estebanus]

HagarIshay wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Wait... Who said that the catalyst was a ghost?! Also, ghosts don't exist, and Shepard is dead, NOT a ghost.

What is the problem with one of Shepard's best firends killing him? Would you rather it'd be a random enemy grunt?

So first you're saying that if you picked control you're screwed either way, but now that a viable option out of indoctrination exists, you don't want it BECAUSE Shepard is not indoctrinated? I don't get it.

Also, I think you may have read the script the wrong way, because it doesn't seem like you even understood what the hell was written down.

Well, gaint machines that want to harvest organics to save them also doesn't exist outside of Mass Effect universe. Ghost can exist.

It may be different for other people, but I don't want Shepard's best friend to kill him/her because I expect Shepard to die while doing what S/he thinks is right. Wether it's a battle against a cerberus agiant, or controling the reapers. It's not just Sheaprd's friends killing Shepard, it's the whole scene.

Shepard's life is screwed if you pick control, but at least s/he died by his/her terms. Indoctrination will screw Sheaprd by force. I don't want to believe Shepard who got high EMS deserve that after trying- and almost succeding- to make everything right.

But it is never implied that ghosts DO exist! It is never said that Reaper Bieber is a ghost! So how do you know that it is a ghost? If anything, it seems more like an A.I. to me!

But Shepard has ultimately succeded in killing the reapers! That's what you wanted! You wanted Shepard to be able to defeat them, even if you chose control! The only thing I'm seeing you say is that the composition of the scene is what you don't like. didn't you see that Garrus only kills Shepard if your EMS is under 3000? If it is over, Shepard will sacrifice him/herself by running into a unit of reaper troops! Isn't that dying by his/her own terms? Is it better to let the commander stay indoctrinated, just so that Garrus doesn't shoot him/her?

Of course Shepard is largely screwed by indoctrination BY FORCE. What the hell do you think indoctrination does? As far as I know, the whole ending script shows how your choices matter! Depending on your other choices in-game, you can either save the galaxy even IF you chose control, or you can't. Simple.

Not every choice is the right one. Accept that. Was curing the Genophage with Wreav leading and Eve dead the right choice? Was it the right choice to kill off the Geth? Was it right to kill off the Quarians? Was it right to let almost all your squad die in the suicide mission? Was it right to save the reaper-made Rachni queen?

What you say is that you want control to be the right choice, which it clearly ISN'T. Even with or without the IT, Control is still wrong, even the game files support that. Nobody should be allowed that much power, no matter what your intentions are. Not to mention of the moral implications of choosing control, of course. Don't even get me started on Synthesis!

Whether you like it or not, you will have to live with the consequences of your choices. By choosing control, you did what you thought was right, and you will have to live with the consequences of your actions. So, from a certain point of view, Shepard actually "dies" thinking his/her choice was right if s/he chose control or synthesis!

Modifié par estebanus, 19 mai 2012 - 06:40 .

[dreman9999]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.The reapers don'twant to destory all life in the galexy. So it would never be an option.
2. It still opens the crucible to be used. Shepard is not key to it activating....Anyone can activate it.

My point is Shepard dieing does not equal to a lose for the allied forces.

I was exaggerating to get my point across. Seems that didn't work, so let me rephrase. If the Catalyst is lying, how do you know that Destroy doesn't actually destroy all advanced civilizations in the galaxy? Or maybe it'll just wipe Earth clean, like some sort of planet killer or death star (see what I did there?). Or maybe it'll send a galaxy-wide signal to order all synthetics to destroy organics. The point is, if you believe the Catalyst to be lying, you cannot pick and choose what he's lying about.

This statement is false.

I can based onthe actions of the reapers....The reapers don't want to destroy all life...That's the mimal line of belivability.
Anything else ong the chice is base on purly defying the reapers. The woest that can happen is Shepard dieing.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 mai 2012 - 06:35 .

[Joolazoo]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But your missing the point that he really offers 2 choices. Destory isjust a recomfermation that I want to do it. Regardless, It's still about not submitting what the reapers want. Synthesis let's the reapers contol everything, and control opens up a way for them to control Shepard.

You're missing my point. If you think he's lying, what assurance do you have that Destroy will do what the Catalyst says it does?

That doesn't matter. The worst that will happen is that I die.Choosing the other options just open up more control to the reapers, a thing I will not do. It's a concept of death instead of submission.

How do you know that's the worst that will happen? For all you know, destroying that tube could destroy all life in the galaxy! (sorry for the delay, I was out)

This might be obvious by the fact that organics built the crucible...and they obviously didn't build it to blow themselves up. Just because he's lying doesn't mean he somehow alterred the rules of the universe and made the crucible into a weapon to target people it's specifically meant not to target...wow.

[Hadeedak]

Vox Draco wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

But yeah, I can see where you could assume the worse. And... you do seem to like your Shepards breathing, judging by your signature. By the by, love the vids. ^^

Of course I do!   The whole point of playing the full ME-Series was to see my Shep triumph in the end, staring at Reaper-cropses and and holding her Kaidan in her arms. Sacrificing is only for people who don't look hard enough for alternatives!

Any other outcome than shepard alive is a defeat for me. Shepard = Hope; Shepard dead = Hope dead
That's my interpretation of the ending and the main reason I am so upset about what I got in the end: Nothing but a little breathe to make me feel something like hope...

And thank you. Hopefully the EC will be any good and and provides me with good material for a sequel..."Shepard's sweetest dreams come true"

Heh. I've always been a sucker for heroic sacrifices -- too many books, I suspect -- so I wasn't particularly attached to my canon living. I wanted her to go out with a bit more of a bang, though.  had a Shepard who was riding for a fall pretty much since she was born -- sole survivor, Earthborn, paragade, so on. I actually rather like the theory of the endings. Not sold on execution so much. The pacing just wrecked the ending. I have great hopes for the extended cut -- for all three endings. It will wipe the slate clean to some extent on speculation, and hell, maybe I'll choose something different this time around for Esperanza.

Buuuuut I doubt it, unless they really change things.

[OdanUrr]

Joolazoo wrote...

This might be obvious by the fact that organics built the crucible...and they obviously didn't build it to blow themselves up. Just because he's lying doesn't mean he somehow alterred the rules of the universe and made the crucible into a weapon to target people it's specifically meant not to target...wow.

Again, I was exaggerating to get my point across, but still, we know next to nothing about the Crucible.

[Hadeedak]

jijeebo wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...



It really feels like all this is being over-thought.

Maybe Bioware WANTED you to think the Catalyst would want you to think he was lieing so you'd think you were over thinking it and trust that he was lieing about possibly lieing and as such assume that he isn't lieing when he is in fact lieing about lieing about lieing that he was maybe lieing.

I GOT YOU SOLVED BIOWARE!!


p.s I lol'd @ the vid

Working as intended. And yeah, this works for pretty much every "This is rapidly becoming excessively complex" thing.

[dreman9999]

Hadeedak wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

But yeah, I can see where you could assume the worse. And... you do seem to like your Shepards breathing, judging by your signature. By the by, love the vids. ^^

Of course I do!   The whole point of playing the full ME-Series was to see my Shep triumph in the end, staring at Reaper-cropses and and holding her Kaidan in her arms. Sacrificing is only for people who don't look hard enough for alternatives!

Any other outcome than shepard alive is a defeat for me. Shepard = Hope; Shepard dead = Hope dead
That's my interpretation of the ending and the main reason I am so upset about what I got in the end: Nothing but a little breathe to make me feel something like hope...

And thank you. Hopefully the EC will be any good and and provides me with good material for a sequel..."Shepard's sweetest dreams come true"

Heh. I've always been a sucker for heroic sacrifices -- too many books, I suspect -- so I wasn't particularly attached to my canon living. I wanted her to go out with a bit more of a bang, though.  had a Shepard who was riding for a fall pretty much since she was born -- sole survivor, Earthborn, paragade, so on. I actually rather like the theory of the endings. Not sold on execution so much. The pacing just wrecked the ending. I have great hopes for the extended cut -- for all three endings. It will wipe the slate clean to some extent on speculation, and hell, maybe I'll choose something different this time around for Esperanza.

Buuuuut I doubt it, unless they really change things.

Which is why I want an ending with Shepard putting a bullet is his heas to stop the indoctrination...

[Ageless Face]

estebanus wrote...

But it is never implied that ghosts DO exist! It is never said that Reaper Bieber is a ghost! So how do you know that it is a ghost? If anything, it seems more like an A.I. to me!

But Shepard has ultimately succeded in killing the reapers! That's what you wanted! You wanted Shepard to be able to defeat them, even if you chose control! The only thing I'm seeing you say is that the composition of the scene is what you don't like. didn't you see that Garrus only kills Shepard if your EMS is under 3000? If it is over, Shepard will sacrifice him/herself by running into a unit of reaper troops! Isn't that dying by his/her own terms? Is it better to let the commander stay indoctrinated, just so that Garrus doesn't shoot him/her?

Of course Shepard is largely screwed by indoctrination BY FORCE. What the hell do you think indoctrination does? As far as I know, the whole ending script shows how your choices matter! Depending on your other choices in-game, you can either save the galaxy even IF you chose control, or you can't. Simple.

Not every choice is the right one. Accept that. Was curing the Genophage with Wreav leading and Eve dead the right choice? Was it the right choice to kill off the Geth? Was it right to kill off the Quarians? Was it right to let almost all your squad die in the suicide mission? Was it right to save the reaper-made Rachni queen?

What you say is that you want control to be the right choice, which it clearly ISN'T. Even with or without the IT, Control is still wrong, even the game files support that. Nobody should be allowed that much power, no matter what your intentions are. Not to mention of the moral implications of choosing control, of course. Don't even get me started on Synthesis!

If he is an AI, then Shepard's mind  can still be tranfered to the catalyst. Fine, not being a ghost, but Shepard's orders to the reapers can still exist. That was my point.

If i wanted to kill the reapers, I would have chosen destroy, no? I am being given an option to find another solution aside from the obvious "We destroy them, or they destroy us". This can work for some, others will want to have another solution. The three choices are being given for the player to decide.

Let's go with your examples. it is your decision to choose if it is right to cure the  genophage with a ruthless krogan leading even if Eve is dead, Because you think that the krogan still should have their freedom.  if you don't cure the genophage, it's the only way to let Mordin survive. Choosing to pick the geth will result in more EMS, if I am not mistaking. Choosing the quarians will let Tali survive. It's all based on what you think is better for your story. 

And why would I accept my choice as wrong? Would you accept in the EC destroy being the wrong option? 

Again, control is right for me. I know it's faults. There are many unknowns in this option, Most odds Shepard will be the new catalyst. But I still agree with it. I understand why people will choose synthesis or destroy, but I still don't agree to their morals. You can think otherwise, and we will agree to disagree. 

[Hadeedak]

Hey, guess what. In destroy, if IT is true... That's what Shepard's getting, too. You don't break loose of Reaper influence. You can fight it, briefly, but if Shepard's on the verge of being fully indoctrinated... It's over. Surrounded by Reapers and with Reaper attention, waking up won't help you. You'll just go right back under. That's how indoctrination WORKS. People don't break free near active reapers.

[Vox Draco]

Hadeedak wrote...
Heh. I've always been a sucker for heroic sacrifices -- too many books, I suspect -- so I wasn't particularly attached to my canon living. I wanted her to go out with a bit more of a bang, though.  had a Shepard who was riding for a fall pretty much since she was born -- sole survivor, Earthborn, paragade, so on. I actually rather like the theory of the endings. Not sold on execution so much. The pacing just wrecked the ending. I have great hopes for the extended cut -- for all three endings. It will wipe the slate clean to some extent on speculation, and hell, maybe I'll choose something different this time around for Esperanza.

Buuuuut I doubt it, unless they really change things.

This is why I still think the ending of Dragon Age origins is in so many ways superior to ME3. You want a heroic sacrifice? A really heroic one with killing the Archdemeon yourself? Do it! You want a not so heroic one by sacrificing another warden? Do it! You don't want to sacrifice anyone but make a decision that might not be the best in the end, but at least the Archdemon is finished? Do it! So! Much! Better!

And yes...the irony is on me...because I usally say control/synthesis is silly because you cannot predict the outcome, but I always choose Morrigans ritual so my female warden can have a happy life with her Alistair. So much for my integrity, I guess...but the power of happy endings is a strong one!

Also I couldn't agree more about the pacing of the ending. It is simply anti-climatic. You have this massive action, a tense rush towards the beam and then...it slows down. Alright,as it leads to the confrontation with TIM, and that's okay. But then AGAIN so many minutes without any kind of satisfaction or relief, just listening to starchild until the lights go out and the credits roll?

This is NOT the right way to end a trilogy based on war, action, character-drama and conflict.

[dreman9999]

Hadeedak wrote...

Hey, guess what. In destroy, if IT is true... That's what Shepard's getting, too. You don't break loose of Reaper influence. You can fight it, briefly, but if Shepard's on the verge of being fully indoctrinated... It's over. Surrounded by Reapers and with Reaper attention, waking up won't help you. You'll just go right back under. That's how indoctrination WORKS. People don't break free near active reapers.

Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 

[Hadeedak]

There's a hell of a lot more than 3.

And yeah, Vox Draco. I feel that's what they were trying for, almost -- but the endings were too short and too poorly paced to really communicate it. With clarity, it should get a lot more interesting around here. And I agree that it really choked on EXPOSITION EXPOSITION SCENE ROLL CREDITS. The crew exiting the ship wasn't a satisfying goodbye to the universe. London was... But there's so much after it that it just gets messy.

Also, mmm, Kaidan. But that's not related to anything.

[liggy002]

dreman9999 wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

Hey, guess what. In destroy, if IT is true... That's what Shepard's getting, too. You don't break loose of Reaper influence. You can fight it, briefly, but if Shepard's on the verge of being fully indoctrinated... It's over. Surrounded by Reapers and with Reaper attention, waking up won't help you. You'll just go right back under. That's how indoctrination WORKS. People don't break free near active reapers.

Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 

That's not how it works.  That's your opinion of how it works.  Even Shepard urged Saren to break out of his indoctrination spell.  No where in the game does it say that indoctrination cannot be overcome.  Similarly, if you are brainwashed in real life, then the process can be reversed.

[Sheperson]

Drew Karpyshyn, come back to us.

[Applepie_Svk]

This discusion aim to countless circle of speculations and argumentation ... I LIKE THAT !

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 19 mai 2012 - 08:59 .

[Hadeedak]

Yes. Saren broke out... Long enough to shoot himself. TIM broke out. Long enough to shoot himself. Benezia managed a warning and a bit of dialogue, and then in full knowledge of what was going on, possibly with her daughter there, slipped right back under Sovereign's influence and tried to kill the party. Grayson fought back... far, far away from the reapers. He lost, and returned to indoctrination.

There is no case of someone shaking off indoctrination. At best, you can expect a few minutes of lucidity, given how many reapers, reaper artifacts, and reaper tools (Husks, banshees, cannibals, brutes) are in the vicinity of Shepard. All of those things would be eating his/her will if he's at the point that reapers can give him lucid dreams. Maybe you want to go "Shepard is special!" or "Shepard is unique!" Ok. But it'd be something with no precedent.

The closest is Shiala, who's plugged into a low grade hivemind, and we're never sure how much influence she was under. She's never mentioned lucid dreams. Maybe Shepard should have stay in the consensus after 'waking up'. I'm sure they'll be thrilled to realize s/he was willing to kill their entire race by choosing destroy.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 19 mai 2012 - 09:04 .

[Hadeedak]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

This discusion aim to countless circle of speculations and argumentation ... I LIKE THAT !

Fun, isn't it? That's what forums are for... And Mass Effect 3 endings are so much speculation and interpretation, circular logic, assumptions, leaps of faith, and bright, pretty explosions.

[dreman9999]

liggy002 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

Hey, guess what. In destroy, if IT is true... That's what Shepard's getting, too. You don't break loose of Reaper influence. You can fight it, briefly, but if Shepard's on the verge of being fully indoctrinated... It's over. Surrounded by Reapers and with Reaper attention, waking up won't help you. You'll just go right back under. That's how indoctrination WORKS. People don't break free near active reapers.

Fun fact...There 3 theories for IT. 

That's not how it works.  That's your opinion of how it works.  Even Shepard urged Saren to break out of his indoctrination spell.  No where in the game does it say that indoctrination cannot be overcome.  Similarly, if you are brainwashed in real life, then the process can be reversed.

I never said it can't be over come..It just can't be for a very long time. Based on the level of indoctrination gears the level of resistance. Thankfull, the theroy hasSHep in the early stages...But he can still feel the effects.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 mai 2012 - 09:21 .

[Hadeedak]

Since the codex is in-universe knowledge, and after YEARS of supposed freedom and no Reaper contact, Rana was still indoctrinated enough to kill herself and a bunch of important asari, I will say even indoctrination wearing off with time might be suspect. And she was taking precautions against it, aware of it, and worried about it.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 19 mai 2012 - 09:21 .

[dreman9999]

Hadeedak wrote...

Since the codex is in-universe knowledge, and after YEARS of supposed freedom and no Reaper contact, Rana was still indoctrinated enough to kill herself and a bunch of important asari, I will say even indoctrination wearing off with time might be suspect. And she was taking precautions against it, aware of it, and worried about it.

Their is no proof in the lore or story that prves that it goes away. Their's more proof that never does.You have the hanar diplmate to back that as well.

[Applepie_Svk]

Hadeedak wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

This discusion aim to countless circle of speculations and argumentation ... I LIKE THAT !

Fun, isn't it? That's what forums are for... And Mass Effect 3 endings are so much speculation and interpretation, circular logic, assumptions, leaps of faith, and bright, pretty explosions.

I like it ... I want you in my cheerleader team 

[Hadeedak]

I'm so there!

Fair enough, dreman. You and I agree. You don't break out of indoctrination or reaper influence. So Shepard's pretty much hosed in your version of IT, then? I can respect that.

Well, I'm all for Garrus saving the galaxy instead.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 19 mai 2012 - 09:29 .

[Vox Draco]

Hadeedak wrote...

I'm so there!

Fair enough, dreman. You and I agree. You don't break out of indoctrination or reaper influence. So Shepard's pretty much hosed in your version of IT, then? I can respect that.

Well, I'm all for Garrus saving the galaxy instead.

I'm no expert on indoctrination, but...if the reapers are in fact wiped out for good, everything of them gone, reduced to scrap-metal and their rusting corpses thrown into the next sun...will that indoctrination still be around in your head?

I mean in ME2 that dead Reaper could influence those scientists...but with EVERY Reaper gone (including their preschool-overlord)...I do not see any problem for even a fully indoctrinated Shepard to live a happy life and die of old age (with maybe the occasional nightmare, but that's okay, Kaidan is there for her, and if you wake up in the middle of the night you can look after the kids or even make new ones to repopulate the galaxy and such things. Bittersweet stuff, you know)

Now isn't that much better headcanon than disintegrating yourself for...yeah..for what?

Hmm...and then I see Shepard on her knees in front of the catalyst, succumbing to indoctrination, the kid gloating and making a Mr. Burns-gesture with its hands...when....*BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM* 

"Good evening! My name is Vakarian. Garrus Vakarian, and I have the license to calibrate you 'til you scream, you  translucent little piece of shiat! Shepard, wake up, we have work to do!"

[Hadeedak]

Hahah.

Well, depends on who you ask regarding indoctrination going on after destroy. It's the magical realm of speculations. I was making a statement about what might happen after Shepard 'wakes up', assuming we're working off one of the ITs where part or all of the end is a lucid dream.

But yeah, Garrus saving the day would just be ideal.

In a perfect ending for me, there'd be a lot more participation from the team, even if you had to leave them behind one by one for tasks. I know we only get two squaddies, but only taking two people to the beam seemed silly. Two did a good job of explaining, and I wish it'd been more like that. But... As is, Shepard lives or dies alone. And in need of a hug.

[JusticarDoom]

I know this is minute, but the person with the N7 Dog Tags could possibly be James. Unless he turned up for someone on the Normandy cutscene.