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Pro-IT, don't you think you are being egotistical?


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#76
Xellith

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HagarIshay wrote...

  Do you remember, pro-IT, why you thought about the indoctrnation theory in the first place? you were angry/sad/confused/lost becacuse of the ending. Don't get me wrong, I think the IT is quite brilliant. The problem is, If BioWare is going to make the IT, or take ideas from it to the EC, it's going to leave fans who didn't choose the destroy option at the same place you were, even worse if they don't like the ending as it is now.


Bioware have already made their mind up what the ending is.  Whatever they release will be whatever they release.  I suspect that they are indoctrinating us and want us to make our choices without this kind of dicussion - and then live with our chocies. If you didnt choose destroy then thats your problem.  The fact is that you make your bed and then you have to lie in it.

HagarIshay wrote...

It's not just the IT, but it did start mostly from there. Fans who wanted a happy ending, to have Shepard alive and make everyone live happily ever after. that's OK. But because you wanted you choice to be the right one, you practically screwed the people who chose a different option. By saying Shepard is indoctrinated, or the Catalyst was lying, you said that we played it wrong. And i don't want this statement to be true.


Why do you keep thinking that we are changing the game?  We arnt changing the game.  We are speculating based on avaliable data.  Through the game there are key signs that indoctrination is taking its toll on Shepard.  His nightmares being one of these clues.  The fact of the matter is that you are given 3 choices.  We all were.  We all have to make our bed and lie in it.  Some are going to have chosen wrong.  Some are going to have chosen right.  Indoctrination works like this.  Its subtle and you have to decide for yourself.  Think of the implications of each action you take. It doesnt matter that you dont want it to be true.  What you get is what you get.  Bioware decided what is going to happen already.  You will find out when we find out - and each of us will get our own ending baseed on that choice.

HagarIshay wrote...

What about the fans who wanted to control an army of machines? What about the fans who wanted to create a new DNA? Hell, some want Shepard to have a noble and sad death! Why for you to have a happy ending of your own, others can't get their sort of happy ending? The point of the final choice is for the player to decide what will happen. There is no right choice exept what you believe is right. Mass Effect is a game of Moral choices. Not tactics.


It doesnt matter what you want. This is Biowares artistic vision. Either its all going to be left open to speculation where there are thousands of interpertations or they are going to release extra content that will elaborate on these choices.  Evidence suggests that elaboration is coming and that the ending isnt what it appears to be.  Its been said numerous times to not take the ending at face value.  Not everyone is going to get a happy ending.  Indoctrination is whether or not you fail the test.  Some chose poorly.  But as I stated this has already been decided upon by Bioware ages ago.  They have content planned and they are keeping it under wraps. 

HagarIshay wrote...
Resentment to the choices of control or synthesis because of a moral question, that I will understand. But most of the time it doesn't seem this way. You simply dissmissing the choices to make your points the correct ones. And that is wrong.


I reject control and synthesis because they are most likely than not traps.  I dont trust the AI kid.  He is the Hitler of the reapers.  You believe everything he tells you?  Shooting a pipe is a lot safer than electrocuting yourself or disintergrating yourself.  Just sayin.

HagarIshay wrote...
If BioWare planned the IT from the start, then I guess I can't do anything about it. But let's be real: If BioWare will do the EC based on the IT, it wil be because the fans asked for it.
What concren me the most, is because so many fans wants the destroy ending to be the right choice, BioWare will answer they're demands and will make the destroy option as the "good choice", while leaving the other fans aside. You may think I am overreacting, but I don't believe I am. Mass Effect 3, as good game as it is, is a game for what the majority of people in the BSN forums thought was best to place in. Casey Hudson admitted it, if I remember corrently. And many times in the game it was proven to be true.


Bioware stated at the start that "if players new what was coming then the reaction would be different".  This infers that there is more to come to ME3 and that they have already decided what happens for each option.  Whether or not you pick the correct option is your problem.  The fact is that indoctrination is occuring.  You are either going to be mind-fu*ked and pick wrong or you are gonna choose right.  But this stuff they are releasing has been in the pipes for a long time.  Maybe they are adding a little extra content based on our feedback - but make no mistake - this extended cut or content in future ending dlc has already been decided upon and is in development regardless of what we say.   You ARE overreacting.

HagarIshay wrote...

I'm asking from the Pro-IT, who have much power in these forums, to be more considerate of other fans, not just the majority and yourself. Because the EC is the chance for BioWare to prove themselves for many, many fans. I'm going to play the EC when it comes out, because i'm also not happy with certain things in the ending. Maybe I stand alone in this opinion, but the EC becoming a Pro-destroy, an option i really don't want my game to end in, will make the end a dissapointment for me much more than it is now.


No.  Bioware have already decided what happens because of each option.  You believe whatever you want to believe - but indoctrination would mean you picked wrong.  And once again thats YOUR problem.  The fact of the matter is that you picked your option and Bioware have already decided upon what that will mean for your fate. Dont blame us. Blame yourself. 

#77
Ieldra

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@all:
The problem is this: ME3 presents all three options as viable choices for the future of the galaxy. We *have* those choices and they validated by the game itself as such.

If the IT theorists get what they want, two of those will be relegated to lesser choices. While the IT theorists say it is obvious that they *are* lesser choices, it is, in fact, not obvious at tall. It's only obvious once you have accepted IT as the premise.

Let's be totally clear about this:

Synthesis and Control have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with submitting to the Reapers, in any imaginable way. The game tells you that all choices end the Reaper threat. END OF STORY. All three choices are valid. And if you are supporting a change to the game that changes this, then you are attempting to invalidate other players' choices while enshrining your own as correct. That is hypocritical and a sign of a totalitarian mindset.

As a consequence, this is not just about the game. This is personal. Implementing IT would ruin the whole ME trilogy for everyone else, and that people here on BSN actively support ruining other players' games while expressing an unprecedented level of malice and condenscion towards other fans who have the same interest in getting a satisfying ending as they have, that is something I still have trouble believing. It makes me actively despise not just IT, but most of those who support it.

I might add that nothing Bioware has ever done to displease me sends me into such a rage as what the IT supporters attempt. Because never has Bioware done anything like saying "haha, you're thinking wrong." IT supporters are like ideological purists and religious fanatics who look down on everyone else as lesser because they haven't "seen the truth". Despicable.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 mai 2012 - 04:27 .


#78
dreman9999

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Ieldra2 wrote...

@all:
The problem is this: ME3 presents all three options as viable choices for the future of the galaxy. We *have* those choices and they validated by the game itself as such.

If the IT theorists get what they want, two of those will be relegated to lesser choices. While the IT theorists say it is obvious that they *are* lesser choices, it is, in fact, not obvious at tall. It's only obvious once you have accepted IT as the premise.

Let's be totally clear about this:

Synthesis and Control have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with submitting to the Reapers, in any imaginable way. The game tells you that all choices end the Reaper threat. END OF STORY. All three choices are valid. And if you are supporting a change to the game that changes this, then you are attempting to invalidate other players' choices while enshrining your own as correct. That is hypocritical and a sign of a totalitarian mindset.

As a consequence, this is not just about the game. This is personal. Implementing IT would ruin the whole ME trilogy for everyone else, and that people here on BSN actively support ruining other players' games while expressing an unprecedented level of malice and condenscion towards other fans who have the same interest in getting a satisfying ending as they have, that is something I still have trouble believing. It makes me actively despise not just IT, but most of those who support it.

I might add that nothing Bioware has ever done to displease me sends me into such a rage as what the IT supporters attempt. Because never has Bioware done anything like saying "haha, you're thinking wrong." IT supporters are like ideological purists and religious fanatics who look down on everyone else as lesser because they haven't "seen the truth". Despicable.

1. You have no proof that 
Synthesis and Control have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with submitting to the Reapers. One choice leave the control of the reaper in charge ......And you think that's logically right?
2. 
One choice lets you implant tech into every organic...With the reaper in charge. And Reapers have the ability to control beings with tech....

The other wipes Shepard clean inculding memeories and put him in a system thatthe only imput would beinfofrom the reapers...

Even with out considering IT, the other choices are still bad choices. 
And I have more proof showing the reaper can do this then your"
Synthesis and Control have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with submitting to the Reapers " concept.
3. Also, your missing the fact that that statement in the ending is nagated by the EC dlc...

#79
Ageless Face

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pseudonymic wrote...

as someone pro-IT, i don't think defending the theory is like saying that the best ending is exclusively destroy or that it's what everyone else should do. under given circumstances, however, it seems to be the only choice bioware gave us if you wanted a "happier turnout", so to speak. IT, to my understanding, is mainly a way to explain the illogical and nonsensical culmination of the game. what you choose from there should receive just as much attention as the "destroy" option, should bioware ever consider rectifying any of the content. it isn't set in stone that the EC will be pro-destroy; fans just wanted something plausible to go off of. ultimately, though... it isn't an IT movement decision to allegedly leave only destroy as a non-indoctrinated result. that's bioware, and that's what they've seemingly mapped out from the get go. so i wouldn't call the fans egotistical, so much as trapped into the same non-expansive realm of possibilities that you may feel you are, for what you'd rather see panning out.


I don't believe IT started as a pro-destroy. People did only wanted a better answer. But now look: There is no thread in the "story and capaign disscussion" forum that doesn't have an explanation of how destroy is better than the other options at least once, and a Pro-synthesis or pro-destroy defending their options. It became really ridiculous. 

dreman9999 wrote...

But you missing the point here....In synthises you leaving the reapers in charge who implant everyone using the crucible. It matter not if organics are made smarter. The fact that the reapers control them at a whim makes the choice at flaut. They can  read you mind and control it with there implants, this has been seen many time over agian in the ME series.

Also, with control you are not even guarantee that you will think the same..
Read what some of the codex says about AI's....
http://masseffect.wi...al_Intelligence 
"An AI cannot be transmitted across a communication channel or computer network. Without its blue box, an AI is no more than data files. Loading these files into a new blue box will create a new personality, as variations in the quantum hardware and runtime results create unpredictable variations. "

Then take note the the star child say about control."Yes, you will die. You can control use but you will lose everything."



You're saying that the catalyst will change Shepard's... box? Control will probobaly replace the catalyst with Shepard. Meaning the kid won't even be there anymore. 

Control, as i said, is bringing many questions. But take a look at the catalyst: He is a ghost. Ghost. Does a ghost has friends? No. Does a ghost has family? No. Does a ghost has a job or reputation? No. Does a Ghost has life? No. Meaning? a ghost doesn't have anything. Have you that maybe that what the catalyst meant? that by choosing control, you are loosing everything you had, and taking a sit as the new catalyst as a sad and bored undead?

Modifié par HagarIshay, 17 mai 2012 - 04:36 .


#80
Ieldra

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@dreman:
And you have no proof that Control and Synthesis means anything else but what *I* say. That's sort of the point, isn't it?

Control uploads Shepard's mind while destroying their body and lets them control the Reapers, taking the place of the Catalyst. That's easily the most obvious interpretation. What happens after that is 100% in the players' imagination. Anything is possible between Shepard flying the Reapers into a black hole and Shepard continuing the cycle. It is not for you to say what Shepard will do in others' games or in which way they begin to think like the Reapers or not. It is 100% invention!

Synthesis combines synthetics and organics in some unspecified way. Nothing else is said. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that "the Reapers are in charge". In fact, the ending sequence pretty much invalidates that claim. Of course IT supporters will deny that this is real, but that's all that it is: denial. 100% invention. Again, it is not for you to say what happens in others' games unless the game actually shows what happens. And nothing that actually shows up supports your claim.

I say stick to the choices you like and put a good face on them. All well with me. But don't try to force YOUR interpretation of choices you don't make down other players' throats.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 mai 2012 - 04:41 .


#81
dreman9999

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@]HagarIshay
Think of the box like a body, which is what hardware is to an AI, The transfer of informant on a peoples persona doesn't mean they stay the same person. Think twins being vurtualy being the same but growing up as to different people.
But your also not understanding the point I'm making. How likely is Shepard going to make a different decision then what the reaper are currently doing or even if he is going to thin the sameway?
Think like this...A man can only dream of being a man. A god can only dream of being a god.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 mai 2012 - 04:51 .


#82
Hihoshi101

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OP does not understand how choose your own adventure games work

Many ways to lose....
Few ways to win...
Why the heck in a game based on choice would you make all choices work out in the players favor? Talk about making choices not matter, oh wait that is what the current endings taken literally do B)

Modifié par Hihoshi101, 17 mai 2012 - 04:51 .


#83
dreman9999

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Ieldra2 wrote...

@dreman:
And you have no proof that Control and Synthesis means anything else but what *I* say. That's sort of the point, isn't it?

Control uploads Shepard's mind while destroying their body and lets them control the Reapers, taking the place of the Catalyst. That's easily the most obvious interpretation. What happens after that is 100% in the players' imagination. Anything is possible between Shepard flying the Reapers into a black hole and Shepard continuing the cycle. It is not for you to say what Shepard will do in others' games or in which way they begin to think like the Reapers or not. It is 100% invention!

Synthesis combines synthetics and organics in some unspecified way. Nothing else is said. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that "the Reapers are in charge". In fact, the ending sequence pretty much invalidates that claim. Of course IT supporters will deny that this is real, but that's all that it is: denial. 100% invention. Again, it is not for you to say what happens in others' games unless the game actually shows what happens. And nothing that actually shows up supports your claim.


Please, I have the entire lore to prove that 
Control and Synthesis means what I say.
I can just end this conversation with saying"A race of machines with a history of deception"...But I'll add a bit more....


Had Grayson been in control of his body, he probably would have thrown up in reaction to the brutalassault. As it was, however, the Reapers kept him from having any physical reaction at all.The most horrifying part was the cold, efficient way the savage attack had been planned and carriedout. Grayson had sensed no anger or rage on the part of the Reapers as they had used him as aninstrument of wanton slaughter. The massacre wasn’t motivated by hate or even a sadistic desire todestroy organic life. The Reapers had analyzed the situation, determined a course of action, and followedit without any emotion whatsoever.This, more than anything else, terrified their human host. It seemed to symbolize an inevitability aboutthe Reapers, as if nothing could stop their relentless, passionless pursuit of their goal.Once all the bodies were secured in the airlock, the Reapers had Grayson take a seat in the pilot’schair. Using his good hand, they punched in a series of commands that first disabled the vessel’stransponder, then brought them out of FTL travel.Grayson was an experienced pilot, but he had never been trained on a turian vessel. Alone, heprobably could have fumbled through the process, but the Reapers moved with precision and certainty.They had an intimate knowledge of turian technology, and he could think of only one reasonableexplanation.The Reapers were gathering knowledge about him and his environment, recording everything theycame into contact with. He didn’t know how many of the aliens were in his head; sometimes it felt like asingle entity, other times it felt like billions of individuals. In either case, however, it wasn’t unreasonableto assume they shared whatever information they collected with others of their kind. Following this trainof thought, if the Reapers had ever possessed a turian in the past for a long period of time, they couldhave learned virtually everything there was to know about that species. And now they were usingGrayson to learn all they could about humanity.The Reapers hit the eject button on the airlock, jettisoning the bodies into the cold vacuum of space.Then they plotted a new course—too quickly for Grayson to catch the final destination—and made thejump to light speed again. Finally, despite his heroic struggle to oppose their will, the Reapers closed hiseyes and made him fall asleep.
(Page 72). ME:retribution...


He didn’t know what the Reapers wanted. Their persistent presence in his mind gave him no insightinto their ultimate goal. But whatever it was, he was determined to stop it.Suicide was the quickest solution, of course. End his life now, and the threat would be eliminated. Theeasiest way would be to end it with a single shot to the head, but the Reapers had jettisoned the turians’weapons along with their bodies. He wondered if this was just coincidence, or if they had done this inanticipation of his reaction.There were other options available to him, though. He got up and made his way over to the emergencykit in the back of the shuttle.Something is wrong.The Reapers sensed the changes in the brain waves of their host through the synthetic networkmonitoring his mental activity. They recognized the pattern flashing through his synapses: hopelessness;self-destruction. They had lost a vessel once before like this. This time they were prepared.Grayson opened the metal emergency kit and examined the contents. There was medi-gel; a massiveoverdose could put him into a coma from which he might never wake. But would that even stop theReapers? Or would they simply animate his flesh and send him stumbling around like some kind ofzombie?Dismissing the drugs, Grayson let his eyes fall on the next available option: the emergency kit’s long,jagged utility knife. But it couldn’t be a simple slit on the wrist; the incredible healing properties of his ownflesh would betray him. He would have to slash his throat, making a cut so deep he bled out before theReapers even realized what was happening.

The avatar cannot be allowed to harm itself.The Reapers understood that Grayson had grown more resistant to their overt attempts to control him;his mind was adapting, developing new ways to protect itself from their domination. But there were otherforms of control.Tapping into his body’s unconscious systems, the Reapers increased the levels of hormones beingreleased into Grayson’s system even as they subtly manipulated the electrical impulses in the brain to alterhis emotional state.Grayson’s heart began to pound. He tried not to think about what he was going to do in case he losthis nerve. As he picked up the knife, his hands were shaking. He raised the trembling blade to his throatand closed his eyes.A bizarre mix of emotions flooded through him. He’d expected to feel fear, and there was plenty ofthat. But he also felt an odd sense of hope and elation. He felt inexplicably energized. Defiant.Triumphant!He tossed the blade back into the kit and opened his eyes. He refused to end it like this. Suicide wasthe coward’s way out. He was better than that.
(Page 88). (Page 89).  ME:retribution


Grayson’s fingers moved deftly over the controls of the turian vessel, bringing it in to dock with one ofOmega’s many landing ports. He was surprised by how easily he had picked up the feel of the alienvessel; it almost felt like he had piloted turian shuttles thousands of times before.The meeting with Kahlee was at a warehouse in a district firmly under Aria T’Loak’s thumb. Graysondidn’t know if that was good or bad, however. Had Kahlee somehow become involved with Aria, orwas it just random chance? The odds of any given location on Omega somehow being connected withthe Pirate Queen were fairly high. She had direct control of at least a third of the station, and anotherthird was held by various factions loyal to or affiliated with her organization in some way.Aria is powerful. A threat. Avoid if possible.Still, it didn’t hurt to be cautious. He didn’t know how Aria would react to his disappearance andLiselle’s death. Rather than take a chance he chose to touch down at one of the rare Omega ports thatdidn’t pay her tribute.From there it was a long walk to the rendezvous, but he covered the distance quickly. Though he wasn’t running, Omega’s landmarks rolled by quickly as he made his way through the labyrinthine streets.After several minutes he noted with surprise that, despite the brisk pace, he wasn’t even breathing hard.He would have made even better time if he wasn’t constantly slowing down to study various structuraland architectural features of the station. He had seen it all before, of course, but he almost felt like he waslooking at it through fresh eyes: taking every detail and comparing it against some half-rememberedblueprint he didn’t actually ever remember seeing.The cycle continues. Each civilization brings change, yet the works of our kind are eternal.Omega was known for the haphazard, piecemeal way it had been constructed. Most believed that ithad been carved from the heart of an ancient asteroid by the Protheans eons ago, but over the centuriesany number of species had left their mark on it. Its discordant style gave it an almost random feel. Andthough it had never bothered him before, for some reason he now found the chaos offensive on a deepphilosophical level.But while the overall effect filled him with revulsion, each individual element he examined during histrek caused him to react with amusement. It reminded him of the ant farm he had as a child. The insectshad worked with slavish dedication to build their network of tunnels, shaping and altering the tiny glasscase that encompassed the entirety of their existence. He had observed them through the glass as theyworked, industrious and relentless, completely oblivious of their own insignificance in the grand design ofthe universe.He was nearing the warehouse district. Soon he would see Kahlee again. Just thinking of her causedhis pulse, and his pace, to quicken. The walk felt effortless, as if he were being carried along by someinvisible force. It felt different than when the Reapers had taken control of his body, however. Then hehad been distanced from himself, a passive observer. Now he felt fully engaged in the process of puttingone foot in front of the other to propel himself along. It just didn’t seem to require any effort. It wasalmost as if someone was helping him.A symbiotic relationship.Grayson pulled up short, his calm, relaxed demeanor swallowed up by a dark cloud of suspicion. Hetried to turn around and head back the way he came, but his legs suddenly felt heavy and awkward. Hemanaged only ten steps before he was doubled over and gasping for breath. His own body was fightinghim; resisting him.The horrifying truth slowly dawned on him. The alien technology had become so deeply embeddedinto his body and mind that the Reapers were now an inextricable part of him. When he had beenheading toward Kahlee they had been working in unison, parasite and host united in a common goal.Their insidious influence had burrowed so deep into the fiber of his being that he had not only beenunable to resist their will, he had actively been helping them achieve their end.
 (Page 101). ME:retribution.


“No,” he shouted out, harsh and defiant. “I won’t take you to her!”He braced himself for the inevitable surge of pain as the aliens fought to bend him to their will. Instead,he felt nothing. The lack of opposition confused him. He knew they were still present; the wires and tubesprotruding from his joints and crisscrossing beneath his flesh confirmed that beyond any doubt. But theyhad become invisible. He no longer processed them as other; they were part of him now, inseparableand indistinguishable from his own identity.That’s a good thing. Influence can work both ways.A crazy idea began to form in his mind. If the Reaper technology was part of him now, maybe thatmeant he would be able to influence and control it the same way the Reapers had controlled his bodyearlier. Maybe he could draw on the cybernetic enhancements and his newfound biotic abilities wheneverhe wanted to. Maybe he could use them as tools to achieve his own goals.You are superior to the pathetic beings of flesh that surround you.The implications were staggering. Liberating. He had transcended the slow, laborious process ofnatural selection. He had broken free of the cycle of passing randomly mutated genes down from onegeneration to the next with the slim hope of gaining some minuscule natural advantage. He himself waschanging, quickly and with purpose. He was evolving toward a perfect being.Do not hide what you have become. Reveal your glory.He had been afraid to see Kahlee because of what she might think of him. He looked strange.Different. But she was a scientist; she would understand and appreciate what was happening to him. Shewould see how he had been improved. Repurposed. She would admire him. Adore him.Spinning on his heel, he set off once more toward the warehouse district, eagerly anticipating themeeting he had been defiantly refusing to go to only minutes before.
(Page 102). ME:RETRIBUTION



..........You want that inside everyone?As SHepard said in ME1...."You let them implant you!? Are you insane!?"

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 mai 2012 - 04:57 .


#84
Hihoshi101

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dreman9999 wrote...


 Now he felt fully engaged in the process of puttingone foot in front of the other to propel himself along. It just didn’t seem to require any effort. It wasalmost as if someone was helping him.A symbiotic relationship.Grayson pulled up short, his calm, relaxed demeanor swallowed up by a dark cloud of suspicion. Hetried to turn around and head back the way he came, but his legs suddenly felt heavy and awkward. Hemanaged only ten steps before he was doubled over and gasping for breath. His own body was fightinghim; resisting him.The horrifying truth slowly dawned on him. The alien technology had become so deeply embeddedinto his body and mind that the Reapers were now an inextricable part of him. When he had beenheading toward Kahlee they had been working in unison, parasite and host united in a common goal.Their insidious influence had burrowed so deep into the fiber of his being that he had not only beenunable to resist their will, he had actively been helping them achieve their end.
 (Page 101). ME:retribution.



..........You want that inside everyone?


Hmmm... Bolded part Sounds like what happens if you try to walk away from the beam...:huh:

#85
Ageless Face

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dreman9999 wrote...

1. You have no proof that 
Synthesis and Control have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with submitting to the Reapers. One choice leave the control of the reaper in charge ......And you think that's logically right?
2. 
One choice lets you implant tech into every organic...With the reaper in charge. And Reapers have the ability to control beings with tech....

The other wipes Shepard clean inculding memeories and put him in a system thatthe only imput would beinfofrom the reapers...

Even with out considering IT, the other choices are still bad choices. 
And I have more proof showing the reaper can do this then your"
Synthesis and Control have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with submitting to the Reapers " concept.
3. Also, your missing the fact that that statement in the ending is nagated by the EC dlc...


Don't you understand, 
dreman9999, that not everyone wants this game to be played only one certain path? some wants a viridity of choices. Thats why we play BioWare's games. because even if it just a game, the connection to the characters, as well to the story, is larger than any other comapny can give most of us in their games. And beacsue of the personal level of love for the game, we want it to end by our way, just as you want your game to end in your way. What is the point of giving us choices, that at the time being we decided were good for us, then laugh in our face when we will see Shepard being a husk?  

Just like you don't want your game to end in a tragedy, we don't want our game to end with destroy option. 

dreman9999 wrote...

@]HagarIshay
Think of the box like a body, which is what hardware is to an AI, The transfer of informant on a peoples persona doesn't mean they stay the same person. Think twins being vurtualy being the same but growing up as to different people.
But your also not understanding the point I'm making. How likely is Shepard going to make a different decision then what the reaper are currently doing or even if he is going to thin the sameway?
Think like this...A man can only dream of being a man. A god can only dream of being a god.

 

What makes you so certain Shepard will do what the previous catalys has done? The only reason Shep will do that is because s/he believes it's the right call. And I don't believe my Shep will do that. Because it's quite obvious the catalyst was never organic. Shepard is an organic. S/he knows that it's not right to kill organics. The catalyst doesn't, because he was never one.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 17 mai 2012 - 05:02 .


#86
Xellith

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Wall of text there dreman9999 lol

#87
dreman9999

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Hihoshi101 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


 Now he felt fully engaged in the process of puttingone foot in front of the other to propel himself along. It just didn’t seem to require any effort. It wasalmost as if someone was helping him.A symbiotic relationship.Grayson pulled up short, his calm, relaxed demeanor swallowed up by a dark cloud of suspicion. Hetried to turn around and head back the way he came, but his legs suddenly felt heavy and awkward. Hemanaged only ten steps before he was doubled over and gasping for breath. His own body was fightinghim; resisting him.The horrifying truth slowly dawned on him. The alien technology had become so deeply embeddedinto his body and mind that the Reapers were now an inextricable part of him. When he had beenheading toward Kahlee they had been working in unison, parasite and host united in a common goal.Their insidious influence had burrowed so deep into the fiber of his being that he had not only beenunable to resist their will, he had actively been helping them achieve their end.
 (Page 101). ME:retribution.



..........You want that inside everyone?


Hmmm... Bolded part Sounds like what happens if you try to walk away from the beam...:huh:

Come here...Take a peek at my thoughts.....
So no one sees that indoctrination is happening to Shepard even if we take the plot as it is? 

#88
dreman9999

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HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. You have no proof that 
Synthesis and Control have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with submitting to the Reapers. One choice leave the control of the reaper in charge ......And you think that's logically right?
2. 
One choice lets you implant tech into every organic...With the reaper in charge. And Reapers have the ability to control beings with tech....

The other wipes Shepard clean inculding memeories and put him in a system thatthe only imput would beinfofrom the reapers...

Even with out considering IT, the other choices are still bad choices. 
And I have more proof showing the reaper can do this then your"
Synthesis and Control have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with submitting to the Reapers " concept.
3. Also, your missing the fact that that statement in the ending is nagated by the EC dlc...


Don't you understand, 
dreman9999, that not everyone wants this game to be played only one certain path? some wants a viridity of choices. Thats why we play BioWare's games. because even if it just a game, the connection to the characters, as well to the story, is larger than any other comapny can give most of us in their games. And beacsue of the personal level of love for the game, we want it to end by our way, just as you want your game to end in your way. What is the point of giving us choices, that at the time being we decided were good for us, then laugh in our face when we will see Shepard being a husk?  

Just like you don't want your game to end in a tragedy, we don't want our game to end with destroy option. 

dreman9999 wrote...

@]HagarIshay
Think of the box like a body, which is what hardware is to an AI, The transfer of informant on a peoples persona doesn't mean they stay the same person. Think twins being vurtualy being the same but growing up as to different people.
But your also not understanding the point I'm making. How likely is Shepard going to make a different decision then what the reaper are currently doing or even if he is going to thin the sameway?
Think like this...A man can only dream of being a man. A god can only dream of being a god.

 

What makes you so certain Shepard will do what the previous catalys has done? The only reason Shep will do that is because s/he believes it's the right call. And I don't believe my Shep will do that. Because it's quite obvious the catalyst was never organic. Shepard is an organic. S/he knows that it's not right to kill organics. The catalyst doesn't, because he was never one.

1.I understanf the everyone doesn't want the same path of out come.But you not understanding that every othe path leads to working with the reapers......How can anyone agree with that? Look at everything they done. It be with them on anything is wrong.

2.Simple...One clear statement makeit clear..."Yesmyou willdie. You can control use but lose everything you have"
That put Shepardin a blank state in the reapers system....Andin the system, they can reeducate Shepard to having the reapers morality. It 's not a question that Shepard will do what is moraly right but if Shepards morals are different. If Shepards moral arethe reapers morals, what do you think he will do?

#89
dreman9999

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Xellith wrote...

Wall of text there dreman9999 lol

That wall of text is what synthesis is.

#90
Ieldra

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*scoffs*

That *presupposes* that Synthesis is like indoctrination. Of course you see it like that if your conclusion is part of your premise.

But in fact, that process of "ascension" has two faces: the ascension itself - "transcending the laborious process of natural selection" - which I see as desirable, independently from anything the Reapers might want - and the controlling instance, which is the Reapers' in Grayson's case but no one in the case of Synthesis, unless you want to posit that Joker and EDI are indoctrinated in the end. Nothing, absolutely nothing points to anyone being mind-controlled after Synthesis. That is 100% invention.

So what you're doing is throwing out a good thing because it's paired with a bad thing in unrelated circumstances. If you think I'm indoctrinated because I think replacing natural evolution by deliberate change is desirable, sorry to disappoint you but I have always thought that way for the last 20 years or so.

#91
Xellith

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dreman9999 wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Wall of text there dreman9999 lol

That wall of text is what synthesis is.


No I mean its not formatted in a good way.  (need more paragraphs)

#92
dreman9999

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Ieldra2 wrote...

*scoffs*

That *presupposes* that Synthesis is like indoctrination. Of course you see it like that if your conclusion is part of your premise.

But in fact, that process of "ascension" has two faces: the ascension itself - "transcending the laborious process of natural selection" - which I see as desirable, independently from anything the Reapers might want - and the controlling instance, which is the Reapers' in Grayson's case but no one in the case of Synthesis, unless you want to posit that Joker and EDI are indoctrinated in the end. Nothing, absolutely nothing points to anyone being mind-controlled after Synthesis. That is 100% invention.

So what you're doing is throwing out a good thing because it's paired with a bad thing in unrelated circumstances. If you think I'm indoctrinated because I think replacing natural evolution by deliberate change is desirable, sorry to disappoint you but I have always thought that way for the last 20 years or so.

I'm sorry...but in synthesis, we let are selve sdie so that synthisescan happen and we leave the star child in charge of it......The one who can up with the current reaper actions before synthesis.......
You not k noticing that we are letting him decide what goes into all organics. You just open the door for the reaper to do what they want in a faster way.
That's my point. You letting the star child implant everyone.
It never came to your mind how synthesis solves the problemm the starchild brings up?If we take it as it is, synthesis solvesnothing...Unless there is more to it then meets the eye.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 mai 2012 - 05:23 .


#93
Ieldra

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dreman9999 wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Wall of text there dreman9999 lol

That wall of text is what synthesis is.

No, that is what YOU put into Synthesis. Keep the "ascension" aspect and subtract the Reaper control, and you get something akin to what it might actually be. As I said elsewhere, it's not in the spirit of Synthesis that it lessens minds. 

#94
StElmo

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Just replay the ending and choose destroy, problem solved. We will all be replaying it anyway when the EC comes out.

No need to over analyze anything.

#95
dreman9999

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Ieldra2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Wall of text there dreman9999 lol

That wall of text is what synthesis is.

No, that is what YOU put into Synthesis. Keep the "ascension" aspect and subtract the Reaper control, and you get something akin to what it might actually be. As I said elsewhere, it's not in the spirit of Synthesis that it lessens minds. 

If the starchild is diciding what goes into every orgainc with synthises.....Then it the same thing as reaper implantation indoctriantion.

#96
Ieldra

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dreman9999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

*scoffs*

That *presupposes* that Synthesis is like indoctrination. Of course you see it like that if your conclusion is part of your premise.

But in fact, that process of "ascension" has two faces: the ascension itself - "transcending the laborious process of natural selection" - which I see as desirable, independently from anything the Reapers might want - and the controlling instance, which is the Reapers' in Grayson's case but no one in the case of Synthesis, unless you want to posit that Joker and EDI are indoctrinated in the end. Nothing, absolutely nothing points to anyone being mind-controlled after Synthesis. That is 100% invention.

So what you're doing is throwing out a good thing because it's paired with a bad thing in unrelated circumstances. If you think I'm indoctrinated because I think replacing natural evolution by deliberate change is desirable, sorry to disappoint you but I have always thought that way for the last 20 years or so.

I'm sorry...but in synthises, we let are selvesdie so that synthisescan happen and we leave the star child in charge of it......The one who can up with the current reaper actions before synthises.......
You not k noticing that we are letting him decide what goes into all organics. You just open the door for the reaper to do what they want in a faster way.
That's my point. You letting the star child implant everyone.

We let ourselves die? What the hell gives you that impression? Also "letting the Catalyst implant everyone" is bullsh*t. The Crucible makes this happen, not the Catalyst. And the Citadel gets destroyed, so it stands to reason that the Catalyst will also be destroyed.

Hmm....this makes me think the destruction of the relays might be a necessary part of the Synthesis ending. An uncomfortable thought.

#97
dreman9999

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Xellith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Wall of text there dreman9999 lol

That wall of text is what synthesis is.


No I mean its not formatted in a good way.  (need more paragraphs)

oh...sorry

#98
jtav

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But we don't want to choose Destroy. As utterly inconceivable as it might be to some of you, some of us LIKE the ideas presented by Synthesis and Control. How DARE you yake that away from us by turning them into losing options!

#99
NGC1300

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I don't understand why it bothers people so much as to what other people think. lol. whether you hate the ending or not or whichever theory you have; why do you people always have to argue and defend your own view? don't try to judge cause both of your sides are just as insulting. geez, the more I spend time in here the more freaky BSN becomes.

Modifié par NGC1300, 17 mai 2012 - 05:29 .


#100
dreman9999

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Ieldra2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

*scoffs*

That *presupposes* that Synthesis is like indoctrination. Of course you see it like that if your conclusion is part of your premise.

But in fact, that process of "ascension" has two faces: the ascension itself - "transcending the laborious process of natural selection" - which I see as desirable, independently from anything the Reapers might want - and the controlling instance, which is the Reapers' in Grayson's case but no one in the case of Synthesis, unless you want to posit that Joker and EDI are indoctrinated in the end. Nothing, absolutely nothing points to anyone being mind-controlled after Synthesis. That is 100% invention.

So what you're doing is throwing out a good thing because it's paired with a bad thing in unrelated circumstances. If you think I'm indoctrinated because I think replacing natural evolution by deliberate change is desirable, sorry to disappoint you but I have always thought that way for the last 20 years or so.

I'm sorry...but in synthises, we let are selvesdie so that synthisescan happen and we leave the star child in charge of it......The one who can up with the current reaper actions before synthises.......
You not k noticing that we are letting him decide what goes into all organics. You just open the door for the reaper to do what they want in a faster way.
That's my point. You letting the star child implant everyone.

We let ourselves die? What the hell gives you that impression? Also "letting the Catalyst implant everyone" is bullsh*t. The Crucible makes this happen, not the Catalyst. And the Citadel gets destroyed, so it stands to reason that the Catalyst will also be destroyed.

Hmm....this makes me think the destruction of the relays might be a necessary part of the Synthesis ending. An uncomfortable thought.

1."
We let ourselves die? What the hell gives you that impression?  "
...Shepard ran off and edge into a firy bean and turn to ashe...That's not letting ourselves die?

2.It the catalyst that gives to option and the catalyst is needed for the crusible to work. Also, the reaper are still functioning in the end of synthesis, meaning the star child still functions.