587 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

dreman9999 wrote...
I trusth nothing I see after I'm cut down by harbinger...Even the destroy option.

All right. That's at least consistent. But why do you choose Destroy then? I'd rather think that choosing "Critical Mission Failure" would be the way out.

Anyway, that's just the point: either all choices are valid as ending the Reaper threat, or neither of them is. Picking one and saying it's the way out is against the premise of your own theory. And if you answer "Shepard lives", you forget that Shepard lives only in games where you get 4000+ or even 5000+ EMS - which is impossible unless you play MP. So....that means that the majority of players have no chance to win if IT is true. How likely is that? 

[Elite Midget]

When I carry all the cards I'm allowed to carry the air of arrogance about me.

[DJBare]

Don't you think it's egoist to think you know what Bioware had planned?
Unless of course you are one of the developers, then I withdraw my observation.

[BatmanTurian]

Ieldra2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I trusth nothing I see after I'm cut down by harbinger...Even the destroy option.

All right. That's at least consistent. But why do you choose Destroy then? I'd rather think that choosing "Critical Mission Failure" would be the way out.

Anyway, that's just the point: either all choices are valid as ending the Reaper threat, or neither of them is. Picking one and saying it's the way out is against the premise of your own theory. And if you answer "Shepard lives", you forget that Shepard lives only in games where you get 4000+ or even 5000+ EMS - which is impossible unless you play MP. So....that means that the majority of players have no chance to win if IT is true. How likely is that? 

They obviously want people to play multiplayer for the most complete game experience and so that they can earn money to make more DLC and work on Mass Effect 4. Giving dedicated players the best ending is just par for the course.

EDIT: by the way, I had far more than 5000 EMS before I even started playing Multiplayer by searching for and finding assets, so it's possible if you're dedicated.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 17 mai 2012 - 06:36 .

[dreman9999]

Ieldra2 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I trusth nothing I see after I'm cut down by harbinger...Even the destroy option.

All right. That's at least consistent. But why do you choose Destroy then? I'd rather think that choosing "Critical Mission Failure" would be the way out.

Anyway, that's just the point: either all choices are valid as ending the Reaper threat, or neither of them is. Picking one and saying it's the way out is against the premise of your own theory. And if you answer "Shepard lives", you forget that Shepard lives only in games where you get 4000+ or even 5000+ EMS - which is impossible unless you play MP. So....that means that the majority of players have no chance to win if IT is true. How likely is that? 

Because it the only on that doesn't support the reapers ideas. True, destory many be a lie(Which dream IT states it is anyway.) But it still is away to go ageinst the reapers will.

[Ieldra]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@BatmanTurian:
It is not for you to say what my Shepard's values are. My Shepard's goal is stop the Reapers from harvesting galactic civilization, NOTHING MORE. If they have to be destroyed to achieve that goal, then he'll do that, if they don't have to be destroyed, then he'll consider other options.

I don't know why everyone just forgets roleplaying when it comes to these things.

You don't control Shepard's actions with your meta-values. Your real-life values do not matter. They are not magically applied to the game's ending, even if you are roleplaying. For all you know, you could be roleplaying right into the enemy's plans.

Your logic is faulty and wishful thinking when you believe that what's in your head will be what Shepard will do after you can no longer control him/her at his/her death.

You have no idea of what roleplaying is, have you?

Unless the story explicitly contradicts me, it is indeed for me to say what happens in Shepard's head and what motivates them. It is indeed for me to say what will happen to my Shepard after the game ends. That's the whole point of leaving the ending open, so that we can all have our own timelines.

Yes, I have limited control over Shepard's actions in the game, but I have almost full control of their motvations, beyond "I want to stop the Reapers" nothing is fixed. And if *I* say that my values are imbued in my Shepard, that's how it is unless Bioware chooses to contradict it. BTW, that I can do this is intentionally designed. Or haven't you noticed how carefully Bioware avoided giving Shepard specific values except in dialogue options you can avoid?

[Ageless Face]

pseudonymic wrote...

all consensus came from speculation, though. in the end, what we all are getting is the same product from the same company. while "destroy" might not be your personal favorite ending and others' as well, we weren't the ones who designed the game and decided that the apparent non-IT option is such. 

now, instead of being bothered by people formulating their own theories over what they find more fitting regardless of their preference, why not create your own theory based on the ending you like the best instead? my point is, while you're pointing fingers at people who are discussing IT and presuming them pro-destroy (which is not the case, i'm pro-control and find IT an incredible interpretation of what bioware hasn't given us), you aren't theorizing why pro-synthesis or pro-control are better options. that sounds a little less than proactive, imo. if you find it ridiculous, then hypothesize about what isn't being talked about instead of trash talking it and make it so that there are postings discussing issues you'd like to see discussed.

I don't have much of a problem with IT being a pro-destroy. Basically i have a problem with people who can't stop saying how my choices were wrong. 

The reason i'm not saying the other options are better in my OP is simply because i don't think they are better options. Like i said, there is no right choice. There is what is right for you. So saying what i think is right will not accomplish anything.

I understand that my thread offended people, and for that I am sorry. But I believe it had to be said. There are too many threads talking about how much they hate control and synthesis- BY PURE ASSUMPTIONS. Not by what we know. And when so many people think of the same thing, it will obviously result in only one group getting their way, and others will be left in the corner crying. 

And yes, i get it that both sides have quite not nice to each other (im proving it right now, aren't I?) But the truth is that the pro-ITs and pro-destroy are having most of the power in this forums. Thats why i'm asking from them to cool down. Otherwise, it will be too late...

DJBare wrote...

Don't you think it's egoist to think you know what Bioware had planned?
Unless of course you are one of the developers, then I withdraw my observation.

 

I would call myself arrogant, but whatever.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 17 mai 2012 - 06:39 .

[UrgentArchengel]

If anyone here has Ego it's those artists and their...integrity.

Modifié par UrgentArchengel, 17 mai 2012 - 06:37 .

[Elite Midget]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

If anyone here has Ego it's those artists and their...integrity.

Is that a challenge? I'm far more egotistic than those that lack intregity. At least I'm honest with my arrogance.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 17 mai 2012 - 06:38 .

[Ieldra]

BatmanTurian wrote...
EDIT: by the way, I had far more than 5000 EMS before I even started playing Multiplayer by searching for and finding assets, so it's possible if you're dedicated.

Bullsh*t. There are only 7530 TMS to gain in any one playthrough. That transfers to 3765 EMS at 50% readiness, which is the most you can get without MP. You're likely mixing up EMS and TMS.

[BatmanTurian]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@BatmanTurian:
It is not for you to say what my Shepard's values are. My Shepard's goal is stop the Reapers from harvesting galactic civilization, NOTHING MORE. If they have to be destroyed to achieve that goal, then he'll do that, if they don't have to be destroyed, then he'll consider other options.

I don't know why everyone just forgets roleplaying when it comes to these things.

You don't control Shepard's actions with your meta-values. Your real-life values do not matter. They are not magically applied to the game's ending, even if you are roleplaying. For all you know, you could be roleplaying right into the enemy's plans.

Your logic is faulty and wishful thinking when you believe that what's in your head will be what Shepard will do after you can no longer control him/her at his/her death.

You have no idea of what roleplaying is, have you?

Unless the story explicitly contradicts me, it is indeed for me to say what happens in Shepard's head and what motivates them. It is indeed for me to say what will happen to my Shepard after the game ends. That's the whole point of leaving the ending open, so that we can all have our own timelines.

Yes, I have limited control over Shepard's actions in the game, but I have almost full control of their motvations, beyond "I want to stop the Reapers" nothing is fixed. And if *I* say that my values are imbued in my Shepard, that's how it is unless Bioware chooses to contradict it. BTW, that I can do this is intentionally designed. Or haven't you noticed how carefully Bioware avoided giving Shepard specific values except in dialogue options you can avoid?

No, you have no control over Shepard's motivations after Shepard is dead. You have no control over Shepard's actions after choosing one of the choices. You have no choices so you can no longer roleplay.. Again, your logic is flawed. What you believe in your head doesn't magically appear in your video-game character's head in the ending. Otherwise you are confusing reality and fantasy.

Also, Shepard does have specific values. Destroying the Reapers. Whether Shepard is a Soft Touch or a Hot Head A**hole, destroying the Reapers are his values.

[iamthedave3]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@BatmanTurian:
It is not for you to say what my Shepard's values are. My Shepard's goal is stop the Reapers from harvesting galactic civilization, NOTHING MORE. If they have to be destroyed to achieve that goal, then he'll do that, if they don't have to be destroyed, then he'll consider other options.

I don't know why everyone just forgets roleplaying when it comes to these things.

You don't control Shepard's actions with your meta-values. Your real-life values do not matter. They are not magically applied to the game's ending, even if you are roleplaying. For all you know, you could be roleplaying right into the enemy's plans.

Your logic is faulty and wishful thinking when you believe that what's in your head will be what Shepard will do after you can no longer control him/her at his/her death.

You have no idea of what roleplaying is, have you?

Unless the story explicitly contradicts me, it is indeed for me to say what happens in Shepard's head and what motivates them. It is indeed for me to say what will happen to my Shepard after the game ends. That's the whole point of leaving the ending open, so that we can all have our own timelines.

Yes, I have limited control over Shepard's actions in the game, but I have almost full control of their motvations, beyond "I want to stop the Reapers" nothing is fixed. And if *I* say that my values are imbued in my Shepard, that's how it is unless Bioware chooses to contradict it. BTW, that I can do this is intentionally designed. Or haven't you noticed how carefully Bioware avoided giving Shepard specific values except in dialogue options you can avoid?

A lot of people who play games don't understand that 'R' in front of 'PG', it seems.

[BatmanTurian]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
EDIT: by the way, I had far more than 5000 EMS before I even started playing Multiplayer by searching for and finding assets, so it's possible if you're dedicated.

Bullsh*t. There are only 7530 TMS to gain in any one playthrough. That transfers to 3765 EMS at 50% readiness, which is the most you can get without MP. You're likely mixing up EMS and TMS.

eh, maybe you're right. I'll concede that. I might be confused.

[BatmanTurian]

iamthedave3 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@BatmanTurian:
It is not for you to say what my Shepard's values are. My Shepard's goal is stop the Reapers from harvesting galactic civilization, NOTHING MORE. If they have to be destroyed to achieve that goal, then he'll do that, if they don't have to be destroyed, then he'll consider other options.

I don't know why everyone just forgets roleplaying when it comes to these things.

You don't control Shepard's actions with your meta-values. Your real-life values do not matter. They are not magically applied to the game's ending, even if you are roleplaying. For all you know, you could be roleplaying right into the enemy's plans.

Your logic is faulty and wishful thinking when you believe that what's in your head will be what Shepard will do after you can no longer control him/her at his/her death.

You have no idea of what roleplaying is, have you?

Unless the story explicitly contradicts me, it is indeed for me to say what happens in Shepard's head and what motivates them. It is indeed for me to say what will happen to my Shepard after the game ends. That's the whole point of leaving the ending open, so that we can all have our own timelines.

Yes, I have limited control over Shepard's actions in the game, but I have almost full control of their motvations, beyond "I want to stop the Reapers" nothing is fixed. And if *I* say that my values are imbued in my Shepard, that's how it is unless Bioware chooses to contradict it. BTW, that I can do this is intentionally designed. Or haven't you noticed how carefully Bioware avoided giving Shepard specific values except in dialogue options you can avoid?

A lot of people who play games don't understand that 'R' in front of 'PG', it seems.

I understand what the R is. I play a lot of roleplaying games. The player is roleplaying throughout the games. But I'm not illogical enough to believe that once I no longer have control of my character, they will automatically do what I believe they will do. After you make your choice, you are no longer roleplaying, because you have no more choices and in at least two of the three endings, the Reaper threat still exists and your character is dead. You can't roleplay if your character is dead.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 17 mai 2012 - 06:48 .

[Rip504]

HagarIshay wrote...
Resentment to the choices of control or synthesis because of a moral question, that I will understand. But most of the time it doesn't seem this way. You simply dissmissing the choices to make your points the correct ones. And that is wrong.

They dismiss a lot more then this,But I fully agree. I do not support IT,because of the fans who do. Call it shallow,but it is my reason.

Modifié par Rip504, 17 mai 2012 - 06:56 .

[Ageless Face]

BatmanTurian wrote...

No, you have no control over Shepard's motivations after Shepard is dead. You have no control over Shepard's actions after choosing one of the choices. You have no choices so you can no longer roleplay.. Again, your logic is flawed. What you believe in your head doesn't magically appear in your video-game character's head in the ending. Otherwise you are confusing reality and fantasy.

Also, Shepard does have specific values. Destroying the Reapers. Whether Shepard is a Soft Touch or a Hot Head A**hole, destroying the Reapers are his values.

Shepard value of destroying the reapers is based on the fact that Shepard don't know any other option. Except from what TIM is offering. Which the methods that are used is what repulse Shepard. And also the the assumption it can't be done.

But when you are given the three choices, Shepard doesn't automatically goes for the destroy option. S/he goes for where the player direct her/him to. Meaning Shepard is ours. We decide what is right for him/her to do. 

[IronSabbath88]

No, and let me tell you why.

Because I'm not forcing the opinion on you. It's my opinion that the ending is all just one big mindf*ck and that's my opinion. I'll respect yours that the ending is just BioWare messing up if you respect mine that I think there's something much larger.

[Ieldra]

BatmanTurian wrote...
Also, Shepard does have specific values. Destroying the Reapers. Whether Shepard is a Soft Touch or a Hot Head A**hole, destroying the Reapers are his values.

Stopping the Reapers is the motivation. That may be done with or without destroying them. You have just chosen dialogue options where Shepard says he wants to destroy or get rid of the Reapers. I have not.

That destroying the Reapers is Shepard's canonical goal is a lie. Just try it. It's perfectly possible to play a Shepard who doesn't want to destroy the Reapers. TIM may assume that Shepard thinks that, but you're never forced to agree. The closest you come is on Mars, but even then it's more like "It can't be done" to TIM's proposition to control the Reapers. Which is, after all, reasonable at that point in time.

Also, if YOUR Shepard is unable to adjust his perspective as other options become available doesn't mean MY Shepard has to share that mental inflexibility.

[Ieldra]

Rip504 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...
Resentment to the choices of control or synthesis because of a moral question, that I will understand. But most of the time it doesn't seem this way. You simply dissmissing the choices to make your points the correct ones. And that is wrong.

They dismiss a lot more then this,But I fully agree. I do not support IT,because of the fans who do. Call it shallow,but it is my reason.

Yeah. I don't support IT in any case, but the fans who support it make me hate it.

[BatmanTurian]

HagarIshay wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

No, you have no control over Shepard's motivations after Shepard is dead. You have no control over Shepard's actions after choosing one of the choices. You have no choices so you can no longer roleplay.. Again, your logic is flawed. What you believe in your head doesn't magically appear in your video-game character's head in the ending. Otherwise you are confusing reality and fantasy.

Also, Shepard does have specific values. Destroying the Reapers. Whether Shepard is a Soft Touch or a Hot Head A**hole, destroying the Reapers are his values.

Shepard value of destroying the reapers is based on the fact that Shepard don't know any other option. Except from what TIM is offering. Which the methods that are used is what repulse Shepard. And also the the assumption it can't be done.

But when you are given the three choices, Shepard doesn't automatically goes for the destroy option. S/he goes for where the player direct her/him to. Meaning Shepard is ours. We decide what is right for him/her to do. 

All I'm saying is until that ending, Shepard's goal has been to Destroy the Reapers. Certainly, you as the player can suddenly decide that Shepard has changed his mind because of new circumstances, but the fact of the matter remains that until then Shepard's values have always been destroy and the option is further supported by the fact that a vision of Anderson chooses it.

[tetsutsuru]

OP, just like in real life, with every decision each of us needs to make, we have options. Well, typically, anyway. And not all options are the "right" or "correct" choices.

The same applies here. If "Shepard's Indoctrination" was BioWare's plan all along, even before the fanbase pieced together what would eventually become the "Indoctrination Theory", you are correct in that there will be a good number of the fanbase who won't particularly care for it as they would be "wrong", specially if they (1) didn't have a high enough EMS before they proceeded with Priority:Cerberus Headquarters and Priority:Earth, and (2) didn't choose the "Destroy" option/ending.

2 things:

1. Not all choices are "correct" or "right". All decisions have consequences. And while "correct" decisions don't always net desirable outcomes, wrong decisions always result in bad consequences.

2. You just can't please everyone. Ever. Not saying, "yeah, so don't even try". But at least try to please most, if you can.

Then again, this is nothing new. In ME2, you technically can choose to pursue Morinth as a romantic interest, right? But it's one of the wrong choices Shepard can make as it will result in a Critical Mission Failure screen. I bet you if Morinth wasn't merely trivial/unimportant/unnecessary/a-waste-of-air to the Mass Effect saga as a whole, BioWare would have probably made a nice little cinematic sequence for choosing to pursue her, instead of an abrupt Critical Mission Failure screen.

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 17 mai 2012 - 07:08 .

[BatmanTurian]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Also, Shepard does have specific values. Destroying the Reapers. Whether Shepard is a Soft Touch or a Hot Head A**hole, destroying the Reapers are his values.

Stopping the Reapers is the motivation. That may be done with or without destroying them. You have just chosen dialogue options where Shepard says he wants to destroy or get rid of the Reapers. I have not.

That destroying the Reapers is Shepard's canonical goal is a lie. Just try it. It's perfectly possible to play a Shepard who doesn't want to destroy the Reapers. TIM may assume that Shepard thinks that, but you're never forced to agree. The closest you come is on Mars, but even then it's more like "It can't be done" to TIM's proposition to control the Reapers. Which is, after all, reasonable at that point in time.

Also, if YOUR Shepard is unable to adjust his perspective as other options become available doesn't mean MY Shepard has to share that mental inflexibility.

Then you refute the evidence that the Reapers are monsters who mind control people, kill trillions of sapient organics only to use them as the crunchy insides when they reproduce (I.E. not even their minds are saved or uploaded), that they hacked synthetic AI and reprogram them to their way of thinking rather than their normal, peaceful way of thinking. You refute that making husks of all of the species they fight is evil and you refute that their goal of destroying galactic civilization only to reproduce is evil.

You can't honestly believe the Reapers are good and deserve to exist.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 17 mai 2012 - 07:07 .

[mango smoothie]

@Op

This one of the many reasons why I'm mostly against the IT.Players shouldn't be punished that badly for choosing a choice in a RPG game, and this coming from a person who picked Destroy. One thing that I believe every RPG game should follow is that there is no right or wrong decisions only consequences. Meaning that each choice should have Pros and Cons, not this choice= win and this choice =lose.

[Ageless Face]

BatmanTurian wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

No, you have no control over Shepard's motivations after Shepard is dead. You have no control over Shepard's actions after choosing one of the choices. You have no choices so you can no longer roleplay.. Again, your logic is flawed. What you believe in your head doesn't magically appear in your video-game character's head in the ending. Otherwise you are confusing reality and fantasy.

Also, Shepard does have specific values. Destroying the Reapers. Whether Shepard is a Soft Touch or a Hot Head A**hole, destroying the Reapers are his values.

Shepard value of destroying the reapers is based on the fact that Shepard don't know any other option. Except from what TIM is offering. Which the methods that are used is what repulse Shepard. And also the the assumption it can't be done.

But when you are given the three choices, Shepard doesn't automatically goes for the destroy option. S/he goes for where the player direct her/him to. Meaning Shepard is ours. We decide what is right for him/her to do. 

All I'm saying is until that ending, Shepard's goal has been to Destroy the Reapers. Certainly, you as the player can suddenly decide that Shepard has changed his mind because of new circumstances, but the fact of the matter remains that until then Shepard's values have always been destroy and the option is further supported by the fact that a vision of Anderson chooses it.

First, as i said, Shepard didn't know about other choices.

And Anderson wasn't very familiar with synthetics lives at Shepard was. He might not see  as being important or relevant. So seeing Anderson shooting the pod doesn't say much whether the choice is the right one. Just what Anderson, with his experience and knowlage, would do.

[BatmanTurian]

mango smoothie wrote...

@Op

This one of the many reasons why I'm mostly against the IT.Players shouldn't be punished that badly for choosing a choice in a RPG game, and this coming from a person who picked Destroy. One thing that I believe every RPG game should follow is that there is no right or wrong decisions only consequences. Meaning that each choice should have Pros and Cons, not this choice= win and this choice =lose.

But ME2 had those choices multiple times. Make enough bad decisions and not even Shepard lives. All bets are off on a bad ending after ME2's ending.