28 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

In Xenoblade you get things called affinity coints, either on level up, or for certain quests/special monster kills. These represent your parties closeness. 

In gameplay terms, they let you take a skill off one characters skill tree and put it on anothers. The characters either through observation or teaching can learn skills that they don't start with.

For example Rikki starts with light armour, but if you get his relationship with Reyne to a certain level and spend the affinity coins, he can learn heavy armour. In Dragon Age terms, you could take a skill from a certain character and put it on another one.

In Xenoblade each skill has a shape, which means that not every skill can be learned in the same way. This still keeps the characters unique skillsets intact.
For example you could teach Fenris Avelines tank skills and make him a better tank, or vice versa, or teach certain spells between mages.Rather than having to take a character along just because they have a certain skill, you can transfer it to a character you use instead.

[Tirigon]

Would be a good thing I suppose.

[MichaelStuart]

Isn't this like learning specializations in Dragon age Origins?
Like, If I got Alisters approval high enough, he would teach the warriors in the party the templer specialization when they got to level fourteen.

or am I reading this wrong?

either way I sapport being able to teach your companions new skill sets.

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 17 mai 2012 - 01:57 .

[Realmzmaster]

I can see this maybe working for skills like heavy armor if you know how to wear light armor, but going from S & S to two handed I do not think would be as easy. I cannot see it working for lockpicking, pickpocketing, trapmaking, potion making, and detecting and removal of traps which would require considerable skill, intelligence or cunning unless it is for the easiest of these levels.

I doubt very seriously a person can teach someone to become a master lockpicker just by transference of skill.

[Realmzmaster]

One way to build the relationship you would have to take the party members you want to trade skills on several quests which would allow the skill receiving member to observe the skill giving member.

[AkiKishi]

Begemotka wrote...

As long as it is done in a believable way....not everyone is born with an affinity for magic in DA,so my warrior should only be able to learn magic skills if the narrative supports it in some way. It would be easier to teach my mage to wield a blade or use a bow,though:)

That's very easy you just make the skill slots that deal with magic a unique shape only available to other mages.

For example the (made up) mage skill improved will which reduces magic damage by 20% is square and could be linked to anyone. The spell Freeze (like all other spells) is a star and only mages have star slots.

[Tirigon]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I can see this maybe working for skills like heavy armor if you know how to wear light armor, but going from S & S to two handed I do not think would be as easy. I cannot see it working for lockpicking, pickpocketing, trapmaking, potion making, and detecting and removal of traps which would require considerable skill, intelligence or cunning unless it is for the easiest of these levels.

I doubt very seriously a person can teach someone to become a master lockpicker just by transference of skill.

Actually, they can. A good warrior (and we all know, in RPGs you are NEVER a bad one at anything) needs to be quick and dexterous anyways; all he lacks is the knowledge about locks, not the agility to perform the deed.

[Realmzmaster]

Tirigon wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I can see this maybe working for skills like heavy armor if you know how to wear light armor, but going from S & S to two handed I do not think would be as easy. I cannot see it working for lockpicking, pickpocketing, trapmaking, potion making, and detecting and removal of traps which would require considerable skill, intelligence or cunning unless it is for the easiest of these levels.

I doubt very seriously a person can teach someone to become a master lockpicker just by transference of skill.

Actually, they can. A good warrior (and we all know, in RPGs you are NEVER a bad one at anything) needs to be quick and dexterous anyways; all he lacks is the knowledge about locks, not the agility to perform the deed.

That is the point you cannot teach a lifetime of  intricate knowledge about locks, pickpocketing, trapmaking, sword fighting, shield handling in a few days or months.  What the suggestion is attempting (In my opinion) to do is to remove the consequences of not taking a particular class or character with you. 

If you give the rogue skills to the warrior you do not need a rogue. If you can give the mage skills to the warrior you do not need to take the mage. That warrior should never be as good at mage skills as someone who has dedicated their life to it unless the warrior does not advance the warrior level anymore and only advances the mage level eventually reaching the same proficiency but at a later stage of development.

The way it is done in the D & D system for example is that you can multi-class. If a warrior wanted to learn rogue skills at a certain level of the warrior class say sixth the character would dual class and pick the rogue class. The limitation was that you would have to raise your level in the new class to equal the old class before you could choose advance any further in either class. So the character would have to climb to the sixth level as a rogue before any more advancement as a warrior could happen. The gamer could then choose what class to advance on level up.

The same agrument occurs in relationship to the warrior being able to bash open a door or chest or for a mage to have a detect traps or lock melt spell which I have no problem with as long as consequences are attached to the action. If a warrior bashes open a chest and breakables are inside there should be a chance for them to break or if you are trying to bash open a door the attempt should have a chance of failure depending on door strength and character strength. The same with the mage.

A warrior should not be able to cast a fireball with the same intensity or skill as someone who has intensive training in it. Also the warrior in the world of DA would have the inherent capability to wield magic otherwise no. Neither should a mage be able to wield a sword and shield with the same ability as a warrior who has trained from birth to wield them.

[wsandista]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Begemotka wrote...

As long as it is done in a believable way....not everyone is born with an affinity for magic in DA,so my warrior should only be able to learn magic skills if the narrative supports it in some way. It would be easier to teach my mage to wield a blade or use a bow,though:)

That's very easy you just make the skill slots that deal with magic a unique shape only available to other mages.

For example the (made up) mage skill improved will which reduces magic damage by 20% is square and could be linked to anyone. The spell Freeze (like all other spells) is a star and only mages have star slots.

I don't know about learning activated talents or spells, but gaining something like improved will or skills that increase health would be great. That actually seems similar to the loyalty abilities in NWN2:MotB.

[Realmzmaster]

Begemotka wrote...



And what if,by observing the companion,you would not learn their skill as is,but simply benefit from their ability in an indirect way?
Take mages and melee / archery skills,for example : mages certainly need to learn how to defend themselves.

Their melee / archery skill will of course never equal that of a warrior,and aside from dagger-wielding,they
could still learn something from the experience....perhaps the mage could then craft a new spell,specifically targeting  warriors / bowmen?

BobSmith101 had an idea above,that if your warrior was not born with the ability to wield magic,and the narrative does not support them having the talent (for example,by gaining the ability by some other means through the game or being a late prodigy,what have you),your warrior could perhaps learn a skill called "improved will" (see BobSmith101`s post above),that makes him more resistant to magic,etc.

So,basically,this would give you extra skills / perks, encourage you to try and take all your companions with you,if only for learning  new talents from them,and yet their usefulness with their class-specific skills would not diminish - they would not become "obsolete",per se,once you learnt what you can from them.

 Improved will I can see as a defense to mental domination effects not all magic. It could help one fight through the pain of a magical spell attack, but not lessen the physical damage. It would be akin to mental resistance in DAO.
One porblem I had with the specializations in DAO  is that the warden could become better at the specialization (in less than a year)  than the party members who had done it all thier lives. In DA2 there is at least  time period gaps where those abilties could have been learned, training sought and practice done.

[Tirigon]

@ Realmzmaster:

Well lockpicking isnt hard at all, even IRL most people can learn it in 5 minutes, and current-time locks are better than those in a medieval setting.


Anyways, the distinction between warrior and rogue is a purely RPG one (and stupid to top); in fact, fighting and "rogue-ing" requires much the same skills and abilities.

[Realmzmaster]

Tirigon wrote...

@ Realmzmaster:

Well lockpicking isnt hard at all, even IRL most people can learn it in 5 minutes, and current-time locks are better than those in a medieval setting.


Anyways, the distinction between warrior and rogue is a purely RPG one (and stupid to top); in fact, fighting and "rogue-ing" requires much the same skills and abilities.

You cannot learn lockpicking in 5 minutes. In fact some RL criminals have devoted their lives to being the best lockpickers in the world. Cracking the multiple combinations on a bank safe requires skill. I want any one who has learn lockpicking in five minutes to crack one or even open a simple lock. It takes practice and lots of it.

 Also mediveal locks where far more intricate than you state. The best mediveal locks could and did rival many of the locks made today. The locks had multiple tumblers each one had to be in the right position to open the safe. In fact the Egyptians had a pin tumbler lock that was extremely tough to pick and that was more than 2000 years ago. Locksmiths and lockpickers today still have trouble picking that lock. The safety lock appeared in 1784 and for 67 years was unpickable until A.C. Hobbs pick the lock, but it took him 50 hours to do it.

Ih fact more criminals do not pick the lock but either saw through it or use bolt cutters which do not work on a combination safe. The best safe crackers listen for the tumblers to fall into place in a comination safe, but you have to know what to listen for. Or they dynamited the safe. The preferred method was to get the bank manager to open the safe under penalty of death.

Most modern banks have time locks which also require skill to crack. 

[AkiKishi]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

@ Realmzmaster:

Well lockpicking isnt hard at all, even IRL most people can learn it in 5 minutes, and current-time locks are better than those in a medieval setting.


Anyways, the distinction between warrior and rogue is a purely RPG one (and stupid to top); in fact, fighting and "rogue-ing" requires much the same skills and abilities.

You cannot learn lockpicking in 5 minutes. In fact some RL criminals have devoted their lives to being the best lockpickers in the world. Cracking the multiple combinations on a bank safe requires skill. I want any one who has learn lockpicking in five minutes to crack one or even open a simple lock. It takes practice and lots of it.

 Also mediveal locks where far more intricate than you state. The best mediveal locks could and did rival many of the locks made today. The locks had multiple tumblers each one had to be in the right position to open the safe. In fact the Egyptians had a pin tumbler lock that was extremely tough to pick and that was more than 2000 years ago. Locksmiths and lockpickers today still have trouble picking that lock. The safety lock appeared in 1784 and for 67 years was unpickable until A.C. Hobbs pick the lock, but it took him 50 hours to do it.

Ih fact more criminals do not pick the lock but either saw through it or use bolt cutters which do not work on a combination safe. The best safe crackers listen for the tumblers to fall into place in a comination safe, but you have to know what to listen for. Or they dynamited the safe. The preferred method was to get the bank manager to open the safe under penalty of death.

Most modern banks have time locks which also require skill to crack. 

There are two flaws in your reasoning.

1. Medivel locks were not particularly good. We are not talking Bramah challenge lock here.
2. The rogue will learn from experiece , an NPC rogue won't be picking ultimate level locks when the game starts.

The actual teaching period for most practical skills is very short. Then it comes down to practice and familiarity. It only took me a 1 lesson to learn how to drive. It took many more to be able to drive comfortably in traffic and learn the rules of the road. But I could make a car go from A to B without hitting anything within an hour.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 18 mai 2012 - 08:58 .

[Tirigon]

@ Realmzmaster: Depends on the lock. A bank safe is hard to crack, sure; But most house doors or Grandma's box where she keeps her jewels? Piece of cake. I have SEEN normal, non-criminal people breaking into their own house (because they had forgotten their keys) in a matter of minutes.

[AkiKishi]

Begemotka wrote...

I agree.I had the same gripe with learning a biotic skill from a squadmate in ME2 and be proficient in it overnight.
Thank you,Jack,for the Shockwave,I will roll with Zaeed now. 

That is why it would be better if you did not learn the skill from your companion,as such,but you could build
resistances / enhance your own class skillset in an indirect way.

As for "improved will" being akin to mental resistance :  I would not mind actually having to build mental resistance like that -learning from a mage companion,for example,instead of just spending attribute points or slapping on enchanted items and become a Thedan Chuck Norris. We would still have the latter two,but also learning from a party member in an interactive way would be really interesting.

Your not. You get taught the basics then you have to put in the points like with any other skill. It's no different to being trained in your own skill set at basic level, and putting the level up point in.

[AkiKishi]

Begemotka wrote...
True. Sorry about that - my bad. Thanks Bob.    
Just realized it felt that way to me because I did the skillpoints redistribution thing as soon as I got Shockwave.

Respecing is one of those things that it's best not to look at too closely. It's a very handy thing to have, no one (with limited free time) likes the idea of having to start over because they built a gimp character or party. But there is not really an explanation for out outside of .


As long as you are in the ballpark of realism (learning from other people) and keeping in the lore the details don't really matter.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 18 mai 2012 - 10:29 .

[Realmzmaster]

Begemotka wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Begemotka wrote...
True. Sorry about that - my bad. Thanks Bob.    
Just realized it felt that way to me because I did the skillpoints redistribution thing as soon as I got Shockwave.

Respecing is one of those things that it's best not to look at too closely. It's a very handy thing to have, no one (with limited free time) likes the idea of having to start over because they built a gimp character or party. But there is not really an explanation for out outside of .

As long as you are in the ballpark of realism (learning from other people) and keeping in the lore the details don't really matter.

Oh,I am an advocate of the ability to respec,precisely for the reasons you stated above.  

I just mentioned it because that lead me to my false deductions regarding ME2`s learnt skills - by redistributing my points straight away to the new skill,I forgot the time and effort required to gain enough points to master it.

I do not respec. I take the first roll. I see it as a challenge to get through the game with that character or party. In the old games I would  hardly ever re-roll a character unless I wanted to play a certain class. Playing a mage with the barest miniumum in intelligence was a challenge but very satisfying.

I do not know what kind of locks some people are putting on their doors, but all my entry doors have double dead bolt pick resistent locks. The back entrance has a steel gate with a Master tamper proof lock. The windows all have locks guards so that the window can raised only one-half inch unless you are on the inside. The one time someone tried to break in was by kicking in the door which took some time. The thief  promptly left when met by the hound and seven cats. The police pick him up at the hospital. Blood is hard to get out of a carpet. The cats took offence to having thier home broken into. They are not declawed. The hound made sure the thief did not leave to soon. He kept him in play for the cats.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 18 mai 2012 - 05:35 .