49 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

I see someone has met Ser Cauthrian.

[Loc'n'lol]

doubledeviant wrote...

Scattershot would be balanced and acceptable if it produced friendly-fire.

It would be horrible. The AI archers would kill all of their melee allies as soon as the fight begins.

[menasure]

Taleroth wrote...

I see someone has met Ser Cauthrian.

that is not the worst example ... well it might be if you do not think retreating before she comes get you is a good idea .
try the red guards of denerim encounters  when you stole a bit too much in the city, there might be even more archers there who all have scattershot after a certain level and in contrast to the first Ser Cauthrian encounter these are game over fights.

[DarkSpiral]

menasure wrote...

that is not the worst example ... well it might be if you do not think retreating before she comes get you is a good idea .
try the red guards of denerim encounters  when you stole a bit too much in the city, there might be even more archers there who all have scattershot after a certain level and in contrast to the first Ser Cauthrian encounter these are game over fights.

There are red guards in Denerium that show up if you steal to much?  That's hilarious!  Do any NPC's shout "GUARD!" first?  I may have to invest in pickpoketing more often, just to see this.

doubledeviant wrote...
There have been times when a triple-Scattershot killed half of my party
and left the other half stunned and helpless before the unscathed
swordsman hammering on us. Broken.

Unbroken.  Working as Intended.  You want realism?  Fine.  You do not charge down an artillery line.

[DragoonKain3]

Scattershot doing undodgeable hits and a stun that requires no check is pretty powerful. Especially when multiple archers shoot at you at the same time, you can very well wipe. Especially true in Nightmare, and especially true back during the DEX hotfix pre-1.02.

Then again, its probably the only powerful skill in an otherwise lackluster tree. Even Arrow of Slaying sucks in that it scales rather horribly; overkill for trash mobs, usually doesn't kill even yellows in one hit depending on their level vs yours.

As such, keep it as is. It's not as if you can't do anything about it... Scattershot is 2s cast so just interrupt them with an AoE CC that only takes 1s to cast.

Modifié par DragoonKain3, 11 décembre 2009 - 12:03 .

[Loc'n'lol]

DarkSpiral wrote...

There are red guards in Denerium that show up if you steal to much? 

Yes it's a random encounter, you get to meet 2 patrols of a dozen or so men. It's arguably more difficult than the back alleys. Oh and they are "red" guards because if it happens late enough, they'll be wearing dragonbone heavy chainmail...

[El-Destructo]

You probably have to fail steal checks in denerim and earn the ire of the city watch or something... so far my rogue hasn't failed a single steal attempt in Denerim and I've not seen anything of this sort. However when I was a lowbie I failed a check in Ostagar and got sternly reprimanded.

[Rathalin]

You need to do the "Crimewave" series of quests to trigger the guard fights.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Rathalin wrote...
You need to do the "Crimewave" series of quests to trigger the guard fights.

Nope. I did all of them on my rogue, but I didn't do any pickpocketing. Never got into any random fights with any guards. Like in all the other cases in which you meet random guards chasing you down, I think you simply need to fail pickpocket attempts.

[DarkSpiral]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Yes it's a random encounter, you get to meet 2 patrols of a dozen or so men. It's arguably more difficult than the back alleys. Oh and they are "red" guards because if it happens late enough, they'll be wearing dragonbone heavy chainmail...

Ah.  Well, shoot.  If they were always dressed in red armor, the situation would have screamed "UO reference!"

[doubledeviant]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

doubledeviant wrote...

Scattershot would be balanced and acceptable if it produced friendly-fire.

It would be horrible. The AI archers would kill all of their melee allies as soon as the fight begins.

Your point?  How is Scattershot any different from Fireball or any other damaging AoE attack?  Realism and game balance both call for Scattershot to be patched.  If necessary, the AI could be tweaked to avoid using Scattershot when friendly-fire would result.

Hells, Bioware nerfed Crushing Prison despite its high cost and long cooldown.  If that spell was gimped for "balance", then the LEAST that Bioware could do is patch Scattershot to produce friendly-fire.

[borelocin]

Scattershot doesn't seem overpowered to me. There are plenty of other AOEs that don't produce friendly fire and this is the only ranged AOE for rogues and warriors.

[Hizoka003]

doubledeviant wrote...

Scattershot would be balanced and acceptable if it produced friendly-fire.

You don't throw a frag grenade at your enemies when they're toe-to-toe with your allies.

There have been times when a triple-Scattershot killed half of my party and left the other half stunned and helpless before the unscathed swordsman hammering on us. Broken.

actaully i will target my tank and hit him with gernades if there are more tehn 4 mobs on him... i just queu up a heal for him at the same time i toss the gernade... if they are all attacking him and hitting him with teh gernade = all mobs get hit

[doubledeviant]

borelocin wrote...

Scattershot doesn't seem overpowered to me. There are plenty of other AOEs that don't produce friendly fire and this is the only ranged AOE for rogues and warriors.

What mass-damage AoE DOESN'T produce friendly-fire?  Let's have some examples if that's going to be your argument.

Hizoka003 wrote...

actaully i will target my tank and hit him with gernades if there are more tehn 4 mobs on him... i just queu up a heal for him at the same time i toss the gernade... if they are all attacking him and hitting him with teh gernade = all mobs get hit

You don't need a healing spell with Scattershot because there is no friendly-fire.  It's nonsensical.

Scattershot would remain a fantastic ability if patched to produce friendly-fire.  It's not as if I want to gimp its damage or stun.

[Matthew Young CT]

doubledeviant wrote...
What mass-damage AoE DOESN'T produce friendly-fire?  Let's have some examples if that's going to be your argument.

Whirlwind, 2 handed sweep (forget the name), Dual Weapon Sweep, Chain Lightning.
Note especially that rogues/warriors don't tend to have friendly fire abilities. Mages do, but in compensation they do way more damage. If you make scattershot do FF you need to buff it.

[DodgeMoreLightning]

Dry your eyes, it's not that bad. The only thing that needs to be fixed is that there should be a set impact radius when it lands (and it ALWAYS lands). It's very hard to avoid, even if you know it's coming.

[Timortis]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

Then again, its probably the only powerful skill in an otherwise lackluster tree. Even Arrow of Slaying sucks in that it scales rather horribly; overkill for trash mobs, usually doesn't kill even yellows in one hit depending on their level vs yours.

God, people are so wrong about archery it's not even funny. It has some of the most powerful talents in the game. Shattering Shot reduces armor by 20, huge, from range. Suppressing Fire has a stacking debuff, the only one of its kind in the game AFAIK. I've had my Warrior's attack go from 100s to 60 from this in a matter of seconds, missing every swing. Pinning Shot, stun and knockdown immunity doesn't prevent this from "pinning" you in place, unable to do anything. It's a stun that's not a stun. Arrow of Slaying, for all its scaling issues, is significantly superior to Final Blow, which does less damage and has much heavier cost, at the same cooldown. There's absolutely nothing wrong with archery, except in the eyes of people who want it to be god mode.

[Hizoka003]

doubledeviant wrote...

borelocin wrote...

Scattershot doesn't seem overpowered to me. There are plenty of other AOEs that don't produce friendly fire and this is the only ranged AOE for rogues and warriors.

What mass-damage AoE DOESN'T produce friendly-fire?  Let's have some examples if that's going to be your argument.

Hizoka003 wrote...

actaully i will target my tank and hit him with gernades if there are more tehn 4 mobs on him... i just queu up a heal for him at the same time i toss the gernade... if they are all attacking him and hitting him with teh gernade = all mobs get hit

You don't need a healing spell with Scattershot because there is no friendly-fire.  It's nonsensical.

Scattershot would remain a fantastic ability if patched to produce friendly-fire.  It's not as if I want to gimp its damage or stun.

gernades do produce FF though.... thus the heal when tossing a gernade

[doubledeviant]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

doubledeviant wrote...

What mass-damage AoE DOESN'T produce friendly-fire?  Let's have some examples if that's going to be your argument.

Whirlwind, 2 handed sweep (forget the name), Dual Weapon Sweep, Chain Lightning.
Note especially that rogues/warriors don't tend to have friendly fire abilities. Mages do, but in compensation they do way more damage. If you make scattershot do FF you need to buff it.

Hmm... that's interesting.  I don't think of "the sweeps" as classic AoE.  It's easy to imagine fellow warriors stepping back while you take a big whack at the enemy, but difficult to implement, so it's acceptable.  Also, I was under the impression that Chain Lightning jumped to the nearest target, friendly or otherwise (perhaps I misread the description; I don't use the spell at present).

Regardless, arrow grenade = friendly-fire.  It's that simple.  With all the complaints about Forcefield and other spells, I find it difficult to see how the change I propose could seem so radical.

Modifié par doubledeviant, 12 décembre 2009 - 10:26 .

[Matthew Young CT]

The default description for CL says it does friendly fire, yeah. It doesn't.

I understand your issues with realism, but the fact is, in reality, archers are worthless in the squad sized combat of DA. To make them useful you have to bend reality. And hey, it's one of the few good abilities archers get

[Luther Paendragon]

Methinks Matthew Young plays an archer character. Scatter shot is not working well as it is implemented currently.



Then again, scatter shot only started to ****** me off after the red guards in Denerim started handing my ass to me. Seriously, forget boss fights, this is one of the toughest fights in the game for me.



I might be mistaken, but it doesn't even seem like it can be resisted. So while my whole party is stunlocked by the archer spam, the melee guards finish my party off -- unaffected by the arrow grenades.

[stribies]

Why aren't goats in this game? This game isn't very realistic if there are no goats. WTF?!

[Solwen_Polyhymnia]

If you have 4 enemy mages spamming mass paralysis would have the same problem I think. Does that make mass paralysis over powered?

[fantasypisces]

Timortis wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

Archers are by far the weakest class in game barring being a good choice for soloing nightmare, let em keep one of the few perks they have.

Archers are second only to Mages in how powerful they are. People who say they aren't are clueless, there's a reason why they're a good choice for soloing Nightmare.

Scatter Shot, Pinning Shot, Slaying Shot are some of the best talents in the game.

Yes once they have all those, but until you get those, well..... .... yeah they are bad for 80% of the game. Amazing for 20%.