120 réponses à ce sujet

[RunCDFirst]

Malificis wrote...
Greater Good. You dont understand Loghain if you think he cares about this.
twist on the absolute epitome of fanatic ultra patriot.
oh and elves are second class citizens here. dont forget that. think less as a 2009 gamer and more as a character in ferelden...

On the contrary, I think I understand Loghain very well. He is blinded by his hatred of Orlais to the extend that he'll do anything to stop them from entering the country. Even if that means undermining everything that he's working to protect.

He neglected to realize that he didn't have to be a complete jerk to accomplish his goal. He even admits he made mistakes once you kick his ass and show him he's being ridiculous.

That aside, I still think the slavery thing was a bit 'weak sauce'. I feel it was done to clear the conscience of players who wished to kill Loghain and made the situation too black/white. Nearly all his other choices could be reasonably argued, but the slavery... not so much.

[Malificis]

red8x wrote...

We're talking about a game, right? A product that Bioware/EA put out for profit? If they made a profit, people appreciated it. Once they have your money how else is the customer supposed to give their opinions about the game? The forums is just like the 'suggestions box' at McDonald's. It allows the company to see what customers really thought of their product after consumption. Despite some criticisms, constructive or otherwise, I would say that the game was well received and I don't think Bioware is in any way suffering for their 'art'.

far from suffering. but not gaining enough in relative terms to other games.
if they were going for pure profit they wouldnt of made a game like DAO. Thank god theyre not.
mm i think its more of a community thing than an anonymous suggestions box to the creator company. its that as well, but thats oversimplified.

[OneBadAssMother]

I think it is because games like DA:O are made for mature people who truly enjoy "intelligent" RP.



Which is not for [everyone].



You have to think about the story, how will you choose, how will you act on certain type of situation, your objective is clear, but there are many ways to achieve it, player makes the choice, and story change around it.



Times like this is when I truly appreciate Bioware for bring a game like DA:O.



Thank you Bioware!

Too bad us mature gamers are dying out =(

Bioware is the only company keeping me gaming despite the lack of time nowadays.

[andysdead]

BACK ON TOPIC!



people always say how good art is never recognized until after the artist is dead. maybe that will be the case with Dragon Age.

[Malificis]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Malificis wrote...
Greater Good. You dont understand Loghain if you think he cares about this.
twist on the absolute epitome of fanatic ultra patriot.
oh and elves are second class citizens here. dont forget that. think less as a 2009 gamer and more as a character in ferelden...

On the contrary, I think I understand Loghain very well. He is blinded by his hatred of Orlais to the extend that he'll do anything to stop them from entering the country. Even if that means undermining everything that he's working to protect.

He neglected to realize that he didn't have to be a complete jerk to accomplish his goal. He even admits he made mistakes once you kick his ass and show him he's being ridiculous.

That aside, I still think the slavery thing was a bit 'weak sauce'. I feel it was done to clear the conscience of players who wished to kill Loghain and made the situation too black/white. Nearly all his other choices could be reasonably argued, but the slavery... not so much.

Lol ofc it can.
He was being a jerk yeah and he admits it once hes shown that his efforts have failed, and Ferelden is in massive danger. If he had succeeded and turned back the blight, would anyone care if his actions were "jerk" like? no ofc not .
Ruin the lives of some elves = money to save humans in Ferelden. Makes perfect sense. Love the similarities between Tevinter and Imperial Britain btw, dont you? 
Slavery thing was a good part of the plot, and its realistic. War funds come from anywhere they can - war itself is immoral as are the products of it, so why cant the means of waging it be also?
Clear conscience? No definitely not. Untenable point. Most of the game has events which make you happily kill Loghain - he is constantly trying to kill you and arguably he poisoned Eamon,and he locked up Anora, among other things.

[Malificis]

By the way I love the arguments developing here, well constructed or not. The fact that people are willing to argue about whether Loghain was the good guy or not shows DAO's success and that Loghain IS a deep character. Ha! Proved right by proceedings!

Maybe I'm slightly overanalysing Oghren oO

Though sadly, anyone who bothers to read this thread will generally be one of the people who did appreciate DAO. Bottomfeeders, for the most part, will get 3 lines down and DUHH cba.

[Sylixe]

I wonder what Bioware could do with the kind of budget Blizzard gets? 

I to would be curious as well since blizzard is now taking in money hand over fist and turning out the worst in the industry.

[RunCDFirst]

Malificis wrote...
Lol ofc it can.
He was being a jerk yeah and he admits it once hes shown that his efforts have failed, and Ferelden is in massive danger. If he had succeeded and turned back the blight, would anyone care if his actions were "jerk" like? no ofc not .
Ruin the lives of some elves = money to save humans in Ferelden. Makes perfect sense. Love the similarities between Tevinter and Imperial Britain btw, dont you? 
Slavery thing was a good part of the plot, and its realistic. War funds come from anywhere they can - war itself is immoral as are the products of it, so why cant the means of waging it be also?
Clear conscience? No definitely not. Untenable point. Most of the game has events which make you happily kill Loghain - he is constantly trying to kill you and arguably he poisoned Eamon,and he locked up Anora, among other things.

He poisoned a rival. The only reason we care about Eamon is because he's Alistair's father figure and he agrees to help us. Had it been random noble in Howe's dungeon #2, we wouldn't care at all about Eamon. While I may not agree with the decision to poison Eamon I can at least understand the thinking behind it. 

And while slavery is a 'realistic', it was implemented rather heavy handedly. Hell, Loghain could have just increased taxes to raise funds for the war. Much easier to accomplish, is to be expected, and doesn't anger half your country because of it.

[bjdbwea]

Malificis wrote...
The world's population seems to be getting more and more retarded and tasteless.

Basically, yes. Though the video gaming sector isn't exactly the best indicator, it certainly is one too. But it's not the fault of the developers or the publishers. They only make use of the situation as it is. The reasons lie elsewhere.

[Malificis]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Malificis wrote...
Lol ofc it can.
He was being a jerk yeah and he admits it once hes shown that his efforts have failed, and Ferelden is in massive danger. If he had succeeded and turned back the blight, would anyone care if his actions were "jerk" like? no ofc not .
Ruin the lives of some elves = money to save humans in Ferelden. Makes perfect sense. Love the similarities between Tevinter and Imperial Britain btw, dont you? 
Slavery thing was a good part of the plot, and its realistic. War funds come from anywhere they can - war itself is immoral as are the products of it, so why cant the means of waging it be also?
Clear conscience? No definitely not. Untenable point. Most of the game has events which make you happily kill Loghain - he is constantly trying to kill you and arguably he poisoned Eamon,and he locked up Anora, among other things.

He poisoned a rival. The only reason we care about Eamon is because he's Alistair's father figure and he agrees to help us. Had it been random noble in Howe's dungeon #2, we wouldn't care at all about Eamon. While I may not agree with the decision to poison Eamon I can at least understand the thinking behind it. 

And while slavery is a 'realistic', it was implemented rather heavy handedly. Hell, Loghain could have just increased taxes to raise funds for the war. Much easier to accomplish, is to be expected, and doesn't anger half your country because of it.

mm we can assume he raised taxes AS WELL AS.
war aint cheap.

and haha, Anora probably poisoned Eamon. Depth of plot? hai! Srsly think about it. Someone made a really intelligent thread about that recently.

[RunCDFirst]

Malificis wrote...
mm we can assume he raised taxes AS WELL AS.
war aint cheap.

and haha, Anora probably poisoned Eamon. Depth of plot? hai! Srsly think about it. Someone made a really intelligent thread about that recently.

It's actually been covered in another thread. One of the multitude 'Anora is a female dog' threads.

[Nosuchluck]

People dig far to deep in to loghains motives. Let's look at what we're given. A bloke who betrays you, a king, duncan and the grey wardens and leaves thousands of people to die. A guy who posions a guy who's your only way to get enough support to fight the Blight. The guy who sells elf citizens for money even though it probably would never raise enough to make a real impact on the war effort. A bloke who seems utterly oblivious to half the country being attacked by a Darkspawn invasion. The guy who even when you defeat him with noble support demands that you duel him.

I'm sorry but Loghain is presented as a stupid evil villian. Everything he does ingame makes it harder for your character to accomplish his goals. I can't sympathise with him and I just don't think he's a very well written character. I didn't read the books, I got an idea he fought in some war and he's using that as an excuse to justify all his stupid actions but that just doesn't cut it with my character.

My point is even if Loghains actions can be justified the way he's presented in the game is a sterotypical evil villian.

Modifié par Nosuchluck, 10 décembre 2009 - 12:00 .

[BroBear Berbil]

WoW leaves this game for dead, and THAT'S purely on a lore/questing basis. (honestly, you *like* the Maker, the 2 dimensional darkspawn, and the philosophy/psychology major demons? Soooo boring.)

Having played WoW from shortly after its release to just recently I have to say I was pretty interested in some of the old lore but as the game progressed it they butchered it. The only story lines I found had any kind of mystery or depth were AQ or Deathwing, and I guess we'll see what they do to Deathwing in Cataclysm; well I won't.

A very large portion of the lore figures in WoW post-vanilla that you fight have conveniently "gone mad" so I don't see how that makes that game's lore so deep compared to Dragon Age.

On that note, I'm hoping The Old Republic is a huge success and positively changes the MMO market. Maybe players will expect a stronger narrative from games that come after it.

Modifié par OnionXI, 10 décembre 2009 - 12:01 .

[andysdead]

Malificis wrote...

By the way I love the arguments developing here, well constructed or not. The fact that people are willing to argue about whether Loghain was the good guy or not shows DAO's success and that Loghain IS a deep character. Ha! Proved right by proceedings!
Maybe I'm slightly overanalysing Oghren oO
Though sadly, anyone who bothers to read this thread will generally be one of the people who did appreciate DAO. Bottomfeeders, for the most part, will get 3 lines down and DUHH cba.

i don't think Oghren is being portayed as the stereotypical dwarf.

in DAO, not all dwarves are drunks. Oghren is a raging alcoholic, who is out of control and blames himself for the loss of his wife and how she turns lesbian. if anything, he is the stereotypical SOLDIER, home from the wars, who drinks to kill the pain of seeing his buddies die face down in the muck and is completely out of control so he alienates the people he loves.

[RunCDFirst]

Nosuchluck wrote...

People dig far to deep in to loghains motives. Let's look at what we're given. A bloke who betrays you, a king, duncan and the grey wardens and leaves thousands of people to die. A guy who posions a guy who's your only way to get enough support to fight the Blight. The guy who sells elf citizens for money even though it probably would never raise enough to make a real impact on the war effort. A bloke who seems utterly oblivious to half the country being attacked by a Darkspawn invasion. The guy who even when you defeat him with noble support demands that you duel him.

Aside from the elves, the only mistake he made was not reading the memo that explains the Grey Warden Recruit is the hero. 

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 10 décembre 2009 - 12:01 .

[Malificis]

Nosuchluck wrote...

People dig far to deep in to loghains motives. Let's look at what we're given. A bloke who betrays you, a king, duncan and the grey wardens and leaves thousands of people to die. A guy who posions a guy who's your only way to get enough support to fight the Blight. The guy who sells elf citizens for money even though it probably would never raise enough to make a real impact on the war effort. A bloke who seems utterly oblivious to half the country being attacked by a Darkspawn invasion. The guy who even when you defeat him with noble support demands that you duel him.

I'm sorry but Loghain is presented as a stupid evil villian. Everything he does ingame makes it harder for your character to accomplish his goals. I can't sympathise with him and I just don't think he's a very well written character. I didn't read the books, I got an idea he fought in some war and he's using that as an excuse to justify all his stupid actions but that just doesn't cut it with my character.

aww and up until then i quite liked your posts.
no people dont dig too far into his motives, dig as deep as you can go because only then can you understand anything.
did you read my post about his actions and reasons? maybe not, will simplify things for you:
lol it would help raise money. not an argument.
oblivious? no just different way of dealing with it. wrong sure but thats hindsight for you.
not stupid evil at all. evil methods for an outcome which, if all goes well, will be good. successful terrorists get called freedom fighters and heroes...Nelson Mandela was part of a group which put burning tires round peoples heads...Loghain fails so hes a villain, if his methods succeeded hed be Hero of Ferelden again but IT ALL GOES WRONG.

tldr; evil actions for good and in this case patriotic reasons = evil?

[Bomfy]

It's just the way things have developed. It's more about instant gratification to a lot of people.



Here's an very recent example. I have spent a long time in the Borderlands forums. After release people complained a lot about the lack of story and a bunch of important things being left out. Granted there are a few things that should have been answered but 90% of the stuff was in the descriptions. No one choose to read then, so they missed out. It's just one big fat race to see who can get the achievements the fastest now.



I really am enjoying DA and it's right up my alley, but I have friends that look at it and say it's far too much work for them.

[Malificis]

Bomfy wrote...

It's just the way things have developed. It's more about instant gratification to a lot of people.

Here's an very recent example. I have spent a long time in the Borderlands forums. After release people complained a lot about the lack of story and a bunch of important things being left out. Granted there are a few things that should have been answered but 90% of the stuff was in the descriptions. No one choose to read then, so they missed out. It's just one big fat race to see who can get the achievements the fastest now.

I really am enjoying DA and it's right up my alley, but I have friends that look at it and say it's far too much work for them.

well yeah but i really dont like this state of affairs! Things are just worse now, i mean look at e.g. FF7. Made over a decade ago. Fantastic piece, caused a storm and a craze over it - forever remembered as one of the best in the industry, ever. that wasnt instant gratification. you can be damn sure it beat all the shallow games of the time. i know why (yeah graphics etc im not a moron) but i always assumed that when something really great came along it would transcend all the repackaged and "6 HOURS OF NEWWWW MISSSSIONNNSS" games, and this would be shown in sales as much as opinion. This hasnt happened in the former and in most peoples minds, the latter too.

Modifié par Malificis, 10 décembre 2009 - 12:11 .

[RunCDFirst]

Bomfy wrote...

It's just the way things have developed. It's more about instant gratification to a lot of people.

I really am enjoying DA and it's right up my alley, but I have friends that look at it and say it's far too much work for them.

Sometimes you just want to come home and blow things up for a few hours. Team Fortress 2 is great for this, but I don't see it as some terrible woe besetting our society. I'm glad we can have both options.

[Nosuchluck]

Malificis wrote...

Nosuchluck wrote...

People dig far to deep in to loghains motives. Let's look at what we're given. A bloke who betrays you, a king, duncan and the grey wardens and leaves thousands of people to die. A guy who posions a guy who's your only way to get enough support to fight the Blight. The guy who sells elf citizens for money even though it probably would never raise enough to make a real impact on the war effort. A bloke who seems utterly oblivious to half the country being attacked by a Darkspawn invasion. The guy who even when you defeat him with noble support demands that you duel him.

I'm sorry but Loghain is presented as a stupid evil villian. Everything he does ingame makes it harder for your character to accomplish his goals. I can't sympathise with him and I just don't think he's a very well written character. I didn't read the books, I got an idea he fought in some war and he's using that as an excuse to justify all his stupid actions but that just doesn't cut it with my character.

aww and up until then i quite liked your posts.
no people dont dig too far into his motives, dig as deep as you can go because only then can you understand anything.
did you read my post about his actions and reasons? maybe not, will simplify things for you:
lol it would help raise money. not an argument.
oblivious? no just different way of dealing with it. wrong sure but thats hindsight for you.
not stupid evil at all. evil methods for an outcome which, if all goes well, will be good. successful terrorists get called freedom fighters and heroes...Nelson Mandela was part of a group which put burning tires round peoples heads...Loghain fails so hes a villain, if his methods succeeded hed be Hero of Ferelden again but IT ALL GOES WRONG.

tldr; evil actions for good and in this case patriotic reasons = evil?

You've missed the point.  It doesn't matter what his reasons are, what matters is his actions in terms of the game. Every single one of his actions get in the way of the players goal to stop the Blight. Everything wrong with the country is caused by him from the players perspective. Everytime there's a hurdle it's usually because connected to Loghain. It's not even a morale issue, it's just that Loghain is presented as a bloke who's trying to stop you from saving the country because of his delusions and personal agenda.

He's built up as a stupid bad guy who's just asking for the Blight to kick his arse. Seriously, even if he won there'd be no one to see him as a hero - because they'd all be dead from the Archdemon. If he was actually smart he would of just had the King accidently killed in combat during the battle, taken the army and killed the rest of the Darkspawn then return home and attempt to take over - rather than allowing the country to be ravaged by a plague of monsters.

Modifié par Nosuchluck, 10 décembre 2009 - 12:16 .

[Malificis]

Nosuchluck wrote...

Malificis wrote...

Nosuchluck wrote...

People dig far to deep in to loghains motives. Let's look at what we're given. A bloke who betrays you, a king, duncan and the grey wardens and leaves thousands of people to die. A guy who posions a guy who's your only way to get enough support to fight the Blight. The guy who sells elf citizens for money even though it probably would never raise enough to make a real impact on the war effort. A bloke who seems utterly oblivious to half the country being attacked by a Darkspawn invasion. The guy who even when you defeat him with noble support demands that you duel him.

I'm sorry but Loghain is presented as a stupid evil villian. Everything he does ingame makes it harder for your character to accomplish his goals. I can't sympathise with him and I just don't think he's a very well written character. I didn't read the books, I got an idea he fought in some war and he's using that as an excuse to justify all his stupid actions but that just doesn't cut it with my character.

aww and up until then i quite liked your posts.
no people dont dig too far into his motives, dig as deep as you can go because only then can you understand anything.
did you read my post about his actions and reasons? maybe not, will simplify things for you:
lol it would help raise money. not an argument.
oblivious? no just different way of dealing with it. wrong sure but thats hindsight for you.
not stupid evil at all. evil methods for an outcome which, if all goes well, will be good. successful terrorists get called freedom fighters and heroes...Nelson Mandela was part of a group which put burning tires round peoples heads...Loghain fails so hes a villain, if his methods succeeded hed be Hero of Ferelden again but IT ALL GOES WRONG.

tldr; evil actions for good and in this case patriotic reasons = evil?

You've missed the point.  It doesn't matter what his reasons are, what matters is his actions in terms of the game. Every single one of his actions get in the way of the players goal to stop the Blight. Everything wrong with the country is caused by him from the players perspective. Everytime there's a hurdle it's usually because connected to Loghain. It's not even a morale issue, it's just that Loghain is presented as a bloke who's trying to stop you from saving the country because of his delusions and personal agenda.

He's built up as a stupid bad guy who's just asking for the Blight to kick his arse. Seriously, even if he won there'd be no one to see him as a hero - because they'd all be dead from the Archdemon.

Undercut by the fact that he, arguably, honestly doesnt think its a blight. He expects to win and preserve Ferelden at all costs. He expects the banns (wrongly) to fall in behind him, but they dont think like him. they dont have his mindset.
if a history of ferelden was written, hed be written in as a fool. but this wasnt certain at the time.

[foolish_sagacity]

My understanding is that not much is different now than has ever been different at any point in my life or in history. When Planescape: Torment released there was a distinct sound of crickets chirping across the world. A couple lonely computers had gasping faces staring at them realizing precisely what bold interactive art they were playing, but many, many, many more were playing Counterstrike.



And do you really believe things were that different eons ago? Do you believe what passed for entertainment among the peasant masses was by and large high art? Indeed, many definitions of high art I've come across seem to indicate that it's almost part of it's definition to be misunderstood as being great art at first. Even most nobility, as writers such as Lermontov or Pushkin, were at least in Russia terrible fops who were empty soulless consumers of fads.



Counterstrike was great at what it was in the day: a game and ONLY a game, nothing more. In the same sense, one should not be surprised that the great vast majority play video games for the game portion of their moniker. Most people aren't looking for the stellar interactive art of games like Silent Hill 2, Planescape: Torment or Shadow of the Colossus. Those games are, in fact, anathema to most of the people I know.



If anything, Dragon Age does a better job of crossing the game to art chasm than most of the truly inspired games, but I also believe it suffered for that, as though they held back the world and the characters so as not to alienate too many people. Silent Hill 2 alienates with its edginess and focus on atmosphere. Planescape alienates with its "interactive book" format. This game still feels largely like a game, atmosphere was sacrificed in most places save the build up to the Brood Mother. Character interaction was good, but could have been FAR more in depth and far more copious, seeing as I had talked every camp conversation through on every party member less than halfway through the game.



So, again, one should not be surprised when a game that is JUST a game like Starcraft is more popular then something trying to edge out a new art form in video games like Silent Hill 2. It's not an insult to this game, it is just human nature.

[Nosuchluck]

Malificis wrote...

Nosuchluck wrote...

Malificis wrote...

Nosuchluck wrote...

People dig far to deep in to loghains motives. Let's look at what we're given. A bloke who betrays you, a king, duncan and the grey wardens and leaves thousands of people to die. A guy who posions a guy who's your only way to get enough support to fight the Blight. The guy who sells elf citizens for money even though it probably would never raise enough to make a real impact on the war effort. A bloke who seems utterly oblivious to half the country being attacked by a Darkspawn invasion. The guy who even when you defeat him with noble support demands that you duel him.

I'm sorry but Loghain is presented as a stupid evil villian. Everything he does ingame makes it harder for your character to accomplish his goals. I can't sympathise with him and I just don't think he's a very well written character. I didn't read the books, I got an idea he fought in some war and he's using that as an excuse to justify all his stupid actions but that just doesn't cut it with my character.

aww and up until then i quite liked your posts.
no people dont dig too far into his motives, dig as deep as you can go because only then can you understand anything.
did you read my post about his actions and reasons? maybe not, will simplify things for you:
lol it would help raise money. not an argument.
oblivious? no just different way of dealing with it. wrong sure but thats hindsight for you.
not stupid evil at all. evil methods for an outcome which, if all goes well, will be good. successful terrorists get called freedom fighters and heroes...Nelson Mandela was part of a group which put burning tires round peoples heads...Loghain fails so hes a villain, if his methods succeeded hed be Hero of Ferelden again but IT ALL GOES WRONG.

tldr; evil actions for good and in this case patriotic reasons = evil?

You've missed the point.  It doesn't matter what his reasons are, what matters is his actions in terms of the game. Every single one of his actions get in the way of the players goal to stop the Blight. Everything wrong with the country is caused by him from the players perspective. Everytime there's a hurdle it's usually because connected to Loghain. It's not even a morale issue, it's just that Loghain is presented as a bloke who's trying to stop you from saving the country because of his delusions and personal agenda.

He's built up as a stupid bad guy who's just asking for the Blight to kick his arse. Seriously, even if he won there'd be no one to see him as a hero - because they'd all be dead from the Archdemon.

Undercut by the fact that he, arguably, honestly doesnt think its a blight. He expects to win and preserve Ferelden at all costs. He expects the banns (wrongly) to fall in behind him, but they dont think like him. they dont have his mindset.
if a history of ferelden was written, hed be written in as a fool. but this wasnt certain at the time.

I just can't imagine how he thought the banns would support him. It's bloody obvious he killed the king, you can't just walk away from a fight with thousands of men involved and expect no one to notice. It's a clear hostile take over. I thought half of his reasoning was that the banns would eventually support him in desperation to stop the Blight? If he didn't think it was a true blight then I just can't imagine how he thought he'd get popular support unless he just killed anyone who disagreed with him, which I suppose he did. Which once again presents him further as a villian.

[OneBadAssMother]

You know there's plenty of Loghain threads, it's funny how it's become the topic of this little debate now.

[Malificis]

foolish_sagacity wrote...

My understanding is that not much is different now than has ever been different at any point in my life or in history. When Planescape: Torment released there was a distinct sound of crickets chirping across the world. A couple lonely computers had gasping faces staring at them realizing precisely what bold interactive art they were playing, but many, many, many more were playing Counterstrike.

And do you really believe things were that different eons ago? Do you believe what passed for entertainment among the peasant masses was by and large high art? Indeed, many definitions of high art I've come across seem to indicate that it's almost part of it's definition to be misunderstood as being great art at first. Even most nobility, as writers such as Lermontov or Pushkin, were at least in Russia terrible fops who were empty soulless consumers of fads.

Counterstrike was great at what it was in the day: a game and ONLY a game, nothing more. In the same sense, one should not be surprised that the great vast majority play video games for the game portion of their moniker. Most people aren't looking for the stellar interactive art of games like Silent Hill 2, Planescape: Torment or Shadow of the Colossus. Those games are, in fact, anathema to most of the people I know.

If anything, Dragon Age does a better job of crossing the game to art chasm than most of the truly inspired games, but I also believe it suffered for that, as though they held back the world and the characters so as not to alienate too many people. Silent Hill 2 alienates with its edginess and focus on atmosphere. Planescape alienates with its "interactive book" format. This game still feels largely like a game, atmosphere was sacrificed in most places save the build up to the Brood Mother. Character interaction was good, but could have been FAR more in depth and far more copious, seeing as I had talked every camp conversation through on every party member less than halfway through the game.

So, again, one should not be surprised when a game that is JUST a game like Starcraft is more popular then something trying to edge out a new art form in video games like Silent Hill 2. It's not an insult to this game, it is just human nature.

No they weren't different eons ago, but that doesn't mean its ok. Yes of course things could of been more in depth, but relative to everything else, characters and interaction is FAR deeper and more copious.
The fact that it has to bridge this chasm and dumb itself down annoys me, and sure human nature is to find things like DAO and Planetscape too long and complex. Human nature on an average is not a standard id like to go by though, as it is kind of bad. I don't think it feels "largely like a game" but i suppose its subjective.
Starcraft had a great plot and some good characters oO