120 réponses à ce sujet

[Malificis]

and yeah lets draw it away from loghain a bit. too many loghain threads as badass said..

[Driveninhifi]

I'd make a distinction between interactive storytelling and gaming. Dragon Age is a good interactive story. This is not a bad thing by any means, but it really doesn't push any boundaries as a game. Then there's stuff like The Void, which has its mechanics totally built into the plot and isn't like anything you've ever played.



Is it art? That's a dumb argument, I think. Everything can be considered art. Modern Warfare 2 attempts to deliver an intense experience and succeeds, I'd say. Dragon Age wants to deliver a 60 hour epic and succeeds in that. They are using the medium in different ways - you can't really compare them.



The strength of Dragon Age is its characters. This is also a weakness in a way, as you have to actually talk to them, do their quests, get to know them in order to see this. The preponderance of "I hate Morrigan" is due to this, in my opinion. If you don't talk to her, she appears to be a fantasy trope. Now, I'd also say that complaint isn't fair because you have to know what you are getting into with a game like this - you have to expect to do that work to get to know the characters. Mass Effect 2 appears to take an interesting approach to this - you HAVE to get to know your characters and get them to support you if you want to succeed in your suicide mission. I think that's a very cool idea.



Now, Dragon Age isn't perfect. There are places where things aren't as fleshed out as they could be, the pacing is off (certain parts are a bit too long and tedious - the mage tower fade, the deep roads - which isn't a very good complaint because it must be a nightmare to pace something this long) and I feel the climax is rushed and a bit forced. Time and resources are finite, so I don't mean to be harping on the team's work and the final product is still excellent.

However, it does hit on the most interesting point in the medium: character development. You can influence your characters and have that impact the story. I feel like this is where the medium can really shine. Dragon Age doesn't go all the way with this - the only place it really matters is Alistair's hardening. But the possibilities for this are very compelling. Imagine if Alistair had not only become tougher, but started using the PC for his own ends. Or if Leliana reverted to her manipulative personality. Or if Morrigan allowed the PC to come with her for whatever plans she had.

There are issues with this - you don't want the party members to become complete putty in the players hands. Not to mention to exponential complexity increase in the story/resources,etc. But I feel like this is a place where the medium really gets a chance to shine because it's something other media actually CANNOT do.

[foolish_sagacity]

Well, I suppose if this thread is meant to vent frustration, then yes it is logical to be angry that DA:O had to be slightly "dumbed down" for the masses so to speak. And it is understandably frustrating that we have to resign ourselves to the idea there will very likely never be a Planescape: Torment ever again in our lives.



But if you made this thread expecting anything to change, expecting games like Counterstrike, Modern Warfare and other game games not to sell 16 million copies while most of our favorite storytelling, roleplay games go sadly unnoticed then I think that's unrealistic. It just isn't likely to happen.



There IS a hope I have though. That once games become absolutely photo realistic, so that they look identical to real life, then much like the landscape of painting changed radically when photos became largely available perhaps so too will video games. Perhaps when it's no longer a game engine race (I have the White engine! I have the Unreal engine! I have the Infinity Engine!) we'll see game developers looking for more substantial hooks to their projects and will turn a focused gaze upon in depth story-telling.



By that time, at the rate video games are growing in popularity, it is even possible they will overshadow film-making, and imagine what directors as skilled as Albert hitchcock or as creative as Tim Burton could do directing a game. That's the wish I hold onto, as foolhardy and as distant as it may be.



But for now, we have people like Bobby Kotick (http://en.wikipedia....i/Robert_Kotick) in charge of our video game production by and large.

[Faerell Gustani]

@OP

The issue is the influx of Casual gamers. Now games are marketed to the masses instead of dedicated, hardcore gamers who would put up with gimmicky 8-bit games like Zelda and Crystalis. Games where the answers were not handed to you on an easy to read quest log. Rather they gave you the tools for the game and you had to figure it out.



I'm not going to say that this is a bad thing as it is bringing videogaming into popular culture and giving our favorite companies increased income. However, this does mean that the hardcore gamers end up going further underground. The quality games (meaning quality gameplay) are not going to be the popular ones, because the "casual" gamers aren't going to like it. That's just how it's going to be.

[Duck and Cover]

I agree mostly with the OP, but not entirely. And thanks for mentioning my Loghain thread. Yes it does show the characters motivations are deeper than first glance. Oghren included. At first glance oghren seems like a dwarf who drinks. But once you get to know him, you discover the main reason why he drinks, and why he doesn't "care".



But you can't expect the average person to appreciate every nuance as much as you do. Some people appreciate the details more than others. If they play the game (like your friend does) and enjoy it, how is that bad? What's important is they got entertainment value out of it, and they paid for the game (hopefully) fuelling profits for another game of this caliber.



Yes you hate to see populist stuff completely dwarf fames like this. But it's the same with Hollywood movies. They throw some male actor lead who can't even grow chest hair, but he has a handsome face, and it makes 100 million dollars in the first weekend. While a good war movie or drama makes next to nothing. Just appreciate movies and games like these do get made, and we aren't stuck with just the bad stuff.

[Malificis]

foolish_sagacity wrote...

Well, I suppose if this thread is meant to vent frustration, then yes it is logical to be angry that DA:O had to be slightly "dumbed down" for the masses so to speak. And it is understandably frustrating that we have to resign ourselves to the idea there will very likely never be a Planescape: Torment ever again in our lives.

But if you made this thread expecting anything to change, expecting games like Counterstrike, Modern Warfare and other game games not to sell 16 million copies while most of our favorite storytelling, roleplay games go sadly unnoticed then I think that's unrealistic. It just isn't likely to happen.

There IS a hope I have though. That once games become absolutely photo realistic, so that they look identical to real life, then much like the landscape of painting changed radically when photos became largely available perhaps so too will video games. Perhaps when it's no longer a game engine race (I have the White engine! I have the Unreal engine! I have the Infinity Engine!) we'll see game developers looking for more substantial hooks to their projects and will turn a focused gaze upon in depth story-telling.

By that time, at the rate video games are growing in popularity, it is even possible they will overshadow film-making, and imagine what directors as skilled as Albert hitchcock or as creative as Tim Burton could do directing a game. That's the wish I hold onto, as foolhardy and as distant as it may be.

But for now, we have people like Bobby Kotick (http://en.wikipedia....i/Robert_Kotick) in charge of our video game production by and large.

I like you.

[Tarante11a]

*clasps OP to ample bosom, gives big hug then hands them huge glass of red*

Wow baby, you wrote A LOT!  And I empathize to the large extent.  I'm assuming that folk being unappreciative of DA:O was the final straw rather than the single reason for your post.

But I think you are causing yourself a coronary heart failure very early in life (hence the glass of red) and I wanted to try and be reassuring at you, especially as some respondees were being a tad harsh.

I have been where you are, feeling disappointed about the quality of popular culture 'out there' and frustrated that the majority of people will not only put up with but apparently seem to enjoy what I saw at best as tooth-grindingly dreadful and at worst as insidious and damaging.  My red button is reality TV, used to be women's magazines and Dan Brown has made me quite angry too. 

But there are a few things you say that really need addressing.  Firstly, the 'bottom feeders'.   Just who are they exactly?  I think most people are far more multi-faceted, complex and enjoy various levels of entertainment.  I DON'T believe that ALL the people who enjoyed Twilight don't enjoy Shakespeare.  I know that when I've come home from a horrible day in my job, I'm far my likely to want to curl up with a trashy novel than to work my way through A Midsummer Night's Dream.  And I don't know about you but Shakespeare needed quite a lot of thought for me to fully suck the marrow from it, study and picking apart which I loved but I didn't just read the plays and go 'Wow, what a great story'.   Maybe that makes me a thicky.  I love Shakespeare, even been in some (badly I might add) but that doesn't mean I can't like Twilight too (and not like Dan Brown.. ahem.).

Secondly, I think it's also important have to have a sense of humour about the things you love.  I adore noisy thrash and metal bands, doesn't mean that I don't think they are hilariously funny.  Same with games.   Have you ever seen 'Zero Punctuation'?  If not, look it up and watch Yatzee's reveiw of DA:O (well actually, watch them all).  The man is a genius (but don't say I said) clearly loves his gaming but has a very healthy disrespect for them.   In many, many ways DA:O is derivative (Warrior, Rogue, Mage?) but that doesn't mean it's not executed brillantly and set apart from the pack.

Thirdly, about comparing DA:O with other games.  Bear in mind that the thing has only been out 5 mins, the ****-a-doodie franchise has been around for years and I think World of Warcraft is actually genetically imprinted on people in the womb, you have to sort of decide NOT to play .   The 'horses for courses' thing applies here too.  In the venn diagram of people playing CoD4, Wow and DO:A, I reckon the intersection is probably quite a big blob.  Sometimes, I want to blow **** up, sometimes I want hack and slash and chat to npcs, sometimes I want people to yell 'I Roxxor' at me.  DA:O has had excellent, excellent reviews from all quarters and I have no doubt  it's flying off the shelves.  A 5 star rated game? From Bioware? At Christmas? Come on.  I really don't think you have to worry about the Bioware staff sitting in their cold, cold offices with one sprig of mistletoe and a bowl of weak sherry punch at their office party.  I'm sure they'll be fine.

And the philistines who don't appreciate good things when they see them.  Ignore them.  Can't be helped.  Their loss not yours.

There, I wrote a lot too.  Hope I didn't sound too preachy and wotnot.  I now fully expect to be pelted with egg.

*'nother big hug from T*

Modifié par Tarante11a, 10 décembre 2009 - 01:43 .

[Driveninhifi]

foolish_sagacity wrote...
There IS a hope I have though. That once games become absolutely photo realistic, so that they look identical to real life, then much like the landscape of painting changed radically when photos became largely available perhaps so too will video games. Perhaps when it's no longer a game engine race (I have the White engine! I have the Unreal engine! I have the Infinity Engine!) we'll see game developers looking for more substantial hooks to their projects and will turn a focused gaze upon in depth story-telling.

Photo-realism is a long, long way off. And it will be crazy expensive to produce that content. Game engines aren't just graphics, there are a ton of subsystems and data to manage. The rendering is a very small part.

I don't think it will really have an effect on storytelling - there's always another technical bar to cross, some other "wow" factor that can be a bullet point on a PowerPoint. There will always be an audience for the popcorn-type entertainment. Thomas Kinkade is still selling paintings, after all.

Something else to keep in mind: Shakespeare tried to appeal to everyone. He's got low and high brow stuff in all the plays - from political machinations to blood flowing across the stage. 

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 10 décembre 2009 - 01:43 .

[Malificis]

Tarante11a wrote...

*clasps OP to ample bosom, gives big hug then hands them huge glass of red*

Wow baby, you wrote A LOT!  And I empathize to the large extent.  I'm assuming that folk being unappreciative of DA:O was the final straw rather than the single reason for your post.

But I think you are causing yourself a coronary heart failure very early in life (hence the glass of red) and I wanted to try and be reassuring at you, especially as some respondees were being a tad harsh.

I have been where you are, feeling disappointed about the quality of popular culture 'out there' and frustrated that the majority of people will not only put up with but apparently seem to enjoy what I saw at best as tooth-grindingly dreadful and at worst as insidious and damaging.  My red button is reality TV, used to be women's magazines and Dan Brown has made me quite angry too. 

But there are a few things you say that really need addressing.  Firstly, the 'bottom feeders'.   Just who are they exactly?  I think most people are far more multi-faceted, complex and enjoy various levels of entertainment.  I DON'T believe that ALL the people who enjoyed Twilight don't enjoy Shakespeare.  I know that when I've come home from a horrible day in my job, I'm far my likely to want to curl up with a trashy novel than to work my way through A Midsummer Night's Dream.  I don't know about you but Shakespeare needed quite a lot of thought for me to fully suck the marrow from it, study and picking apart which I loved but I didn't just read the plays and go 'Wow, what a great story'.   Maybe that makes me a thicky.  I love Shakespeare, even been in some (badly I might add) but that doesn't mean I can't like Twilight too (and not like Dan Brown.. ahem.).

Secondly, I think it's also important have to have a sense of humour about the things you love.  I adore noisy thrash and metal bands, doesn't mean that I don't think they are hilariously funny.  Same with games.   Have you ever seen 'Zero Punctuation'?  If not, look it up and watch Yatzee's reveiw of DA:O (well actually, watch them all).  The man is a genius (but don't say I said) clearly loves his gaming but has a very healthy disrespect for them.   In many, many ways DA:O is derivative (Warrior, Rogue, Mage?) but that doesn't mean it's not executed brillantly and set apart from the pack.

Thirdly, about comparing DA:O with other games.  Bear in mind that the thing has only been out 5 mins, the ****-a-doodie franchise has been around for years and I think World of Warcraft is actually genetically imprinted on people in the womb, you have to sort of decide NOT to play .   DO:A has had excellent, excellent reviews from all quarters and I have no doubt  it's flying off the shelves.  A 5 star rated game? From Bioware? At Christmas? Come on.  I really don't think you have to worry about the Bioware staff sitting in their cold, cold offices with one sprig of mistletoe and a bowl of weak sherry punch at their office party.  I'm sure they'll be fine.

And the philistines who don't appreciate good things when they see them.  Ignore them.  Can't be helped.  Their loss not yours.

There, I wrote a lot too.  Hope I didn't sound too preachy and wotnot.  I now fully expect to be pelted with egg.

*'nother big hug from T*

haha.
first of all i dont like zero punctuation. you could probably guess that. Yes ive seen it.
Lol im not worried about Bioware's staff, im sure theyre doing fine and I KNOW they made shedloads of money from this title.
I understand the point over trashy novels etc and I was a little too harsh, they have their place just as overly simple games have their
place.
Overriding problem is what I see as there not being enough of a distinction, in a sense. Some games like DAO should be recognised as being above the general crowd - not in the background to the games which appeal to the part and time where you cant be bothered and just want to do something easy and simple. I suppose i am annoyed mainly at peoples' lack of will to see DAO as above the easy and simple, or MOST peoples'.
It's frustration that lack of recognition for great titles relative to easy and simple ones will result in less titles like DAO, Deus Ex and to a lesser extent Mask of the Betrayer. That is essentially the core of where I'm coming from and what leads me to insult the population as I have. Again, its not so much that Bioware didnt make enough money out of it, its that if they were to make as much as the easysimple games around we'd see more DAOs around, and the philistines are part of mass opinion and in the end thats what dictates what kind of games are developed, but I'm repeating myself.
Hmm yes generic classes but I'm looking at a plot and character viewpoint here, less an actual combat- gameplay one.

[Malificis]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Something else to keep in mind: Shakespeare tried to appeal to everyone. He's got low and high brow stuff in all the plays - from political machinations to blood flowing across the stage. 

a good point and entirely valid.
Lol I don't want games to be ultra highbrow philosophy-degree-requiring-material, but I dont want them to be basic and easysimple either. Point is, though DAO is definitely not perfect, its damn well on the right track and the fact that it hasnt made as much impact relative to other games means this kind of game is being proven - even with what is effectively the compromise/combination between low and high brown like Shakespeare - to undersell compared to "wack-a-doodie" games, as T mentioned.

[Statulos]

Videogames to me are like food: you can go the simple and preditable way and take a McDonald´s burger, or you can drop by your grandmother´s house. Sure, she will not grill something perfectly round and nice looking, absolutely symetrical and easy accesible, but there are huge chances of granma grilling something for you with a taste, and style unapprochable in McDonald´s.

Modifié par Statulos, 10 décembre 2009 - 02:00 .

[Tarante11a]

Malificis wrote...

It's frustration that lack of recognition for great titles relative to easy and simple ones will result in less titles like DAO, Deus Ex and to a lesser extent Mask of the Betrayer. That is essentially the core of where I'm coming from and what leads me to insult the population as I have. Again, its not so much that Bioware didnt make enough money out of it, its that if they were to make as much as the easysimple games around we'd see more DAOs around, and the philistines are part of mass opinion and in the end thats what dictates what kind of games are developed, but I'm repeating myself.
Hmm yes generic classes but I'm looking at a plot and character viewpoint here, less an actual combat- gameplay one.

Give it time, my sweet, give it time.   classics aren't recognized for what they are straight away.  I predict DA:O being referred to as a stand-out game of 2009 in the future and depending on where they go with DLC and what player mods do probably more than that.

[Krigwin]

Speaking as someone here who has played over ~200 hours of DA:O and has done multiple playthroughs on Nightmare, but also as someone who plays Left 4 Dead 2, Modern Warfare 2, and World of Warcraft regularly.

Nothing is new. This faux-elitism "the masses are so stupid, I am a brilliant and special flower now let's group hug in our super special club on the interwebs" crap got old years ago. The population of gamers hasn't gotten stupider or anything, it's just increased. The same types of games that are popular now, are the same types that were popular back in the time of Planescape and Deus Ex too. This isn't a new trend, in this industry or any other.

If you really want to complain about things that are destroying video games, start some threads about DLC and monthly fees.

[Malificis]

Krigwin wrote...

Speaking as someone here who has played over ~200 hours of DA:O and has done multiple playthroughs on Nightmare, but also as someone who plays Left 4 Dead 2, Modern Warfare 2, and World of Warcraft regularly.

Nothing is new. This faux-elitism "the masses are so stupid, I am a brilliant and special flower now let's group hug in our super special club on the interwebs" crap got old years ago. The population of gamers hasn't gotten stupider or anything, it's just increased. The same types of games that are popular now, are the same types that were popular back in the time of Planescape and Deus Ex too. This isn't a new trend, in this industry or any other.

If you really want to complain about things that are destroying video games, start some threads about DLC and monthly fees.

ill pay those if i think they are justified (Dlcs/monthly)
old doesnt mean wrong. the masses ARE so stupid.

[red8x]

Are you a consumer? You are part of the masses.

[Kanner]

I am going to claim internet points right now for 'faux-elitism'. =)

Also, am I wrong to be amused by how usually it works out that the people claiming the masses are dumb tend to be poor, under-employeed, under-sexed, and rather anti-social*? People are not innately dumb. They are especially not dumb just because they don't like your pretty videogame.

One of the worrying issues with the monthly subs and downloadable content IS that people seem to be offended by giving money to the artists and programmers who are, by the previous definitions in this thread, THE MOST WONDERFUL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. If you love them so much, why don't you want them to be rich?

Yes I'm offended that EA gets a cut. Thems the breaks. But there's no path to emanicipation for bioware without this kind of thing. This kind of single player MMO idea is a novel but extremely fertile idea to explore. Please make it work for them.


*(I know I am. =D)

Modifié par Kanner, 10 décembre 2009 - 03:22 .

[Skydiver8888]

OP, i love you.  unfortunately, you're about half my age, so there will be no discussions of having your babies, sorry.

I for one am proud to be an "ivory tower elitist".  I have absolutely no problem with being more educated and intelligent than the masses.  I won't lord it over people, but when i use words with more than 4 syllables, i fully expect to be called names.  You know what?  that's ok by me.  I blame public "education".

The person that posted about specialization (sorry, along with being elitist i'm also abominably lazy) i think hit the nail on the head.  It's hard to find a true "Rennaissance Man" type of person anymore.  And when you do, they are called nerds, elitists, geeks, dorks, or just ignored.  Poor Leonardo da Vinci is rolling in his grave right now, i am sure. 

I, for one, am glad that Bioware sticks to their proverial guns on this sort of issue, and continues to create games that value writing, characters, and depth of story. 

to quote Mr. Gaider hmself, thanks to Bioware for "being the kind of game company that believes writing is something worth investing in."

Modifié par Skydiver8888, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:01 .

[SnakeStrike8]

There is a middle ground between FPS games and RPGs. Deus Ex (the first one) is a fine exampel of this: An RPG combined with an FPS. When I played that game, I thought it was the best thing in the world. You could deal with situations in any way you saw fit (kill all enemies, or kill a few, or kill none) and people actually reacted to it; they would think more or less of you depending on how you dealt with the situations the game put you in.

Unfortunately, I've seen too many people treat Deus Ex like a straight up FPS rather than a thinking game. Result? A quick death and frustrated gamers. My hypothesis? People like FPS games more than RPGs. Such is how it is.

Gaming tends to go in phases. Today is the age of FPS games; advancements in physics engines and graphics has made it so. A while back, it was the age of RTS games. I remember a time when Starcraft and Warcraft and Command and Conquer was all the rage. Now it isn't. Such is life.

[bluehaze013]

Krigwin wrote...

Speaking as someone here who has played over ~200 hours of DA:O and has done multiple playthroughs on Nightmare, but also as someone who plays Left 4 Dead 2, Modern Warfare 2, and World of Warcraft regularly.

Nothing is new. This faux-elitism "the masses are so stupid, I am a brilliant and special flower now let's group hug in our super special club on the interwebs" crap got old years ago. The population of gamers hasn't gotten stupider or anything, it's just increased. The same types of games that are popular now, are the same types that were popular back in the time of Planescape and Deus Ex too. This isn't a new trend, in this industry or any other.

If you really want to complain about things that are destroying video games, start some threads about DLC and monthly fees.

This ^

[DarkSpiral]

foolish_sagacity wrote...

There IS a hope I have though. That once games become absolutely photo realistic, so that they look identical to real life, then much like the landscape of painting changed radically when photos became largely available perhaps so too will video games. Perhaps when it's no longer a game engine race (I have the White engine! I have the Unreal engine! I have the Infinity Engine!) we'll see game developers looking for more substantial hooks to their projects and will turn a focused gaze upon in depth story-telling.

Well said.  Possibly you saw the same interview I did with a Bioware head, when he basically says the same thing.  We are rapidly reaching the pointy when we won't be able to make the graphics better, because the human eye won't be able to notice the difference.  Once that happens, when the technology reaches the limitations of it's users, other elements will (hopefully) beccome the focus.  Naturally, the element I want focused on is story and immersion, but we could also end up concentrating on otehr things.  Time will tell.

Oh, and when I say "rapidly reaching the point" I don't mean a couple of years from now.  10, maybe 20.  But not, you know, 2012.

EDIT: A question for Tarante11a: What does "horses for courses" mean?  I am unfamiliar with the term.

Modifié par DarkSpiral, 10 décembre 2009 - 05:32 .

[Squiggles1334]

I am pretty sure that if everyone in the known first world was busy playing Dragon Age and Planescape Torment, there would be a handful of people in some other corner of the internet complaining that the rest of the gaming masses just don't "get" or "understand" the visceral tension and gritty cinematic style of Call Of Duty 4 or Gears Of War and are therefore the lesser for it. It's just a game, no need to get on a misanthropic or elitist soapbox about it. Kick back, have a cold beer, and enjoy your favorite games for what they are. I drew the short straw of popular tastes like many others here, too. It just ain't worth losing sleep over, dude.

[ComTrav]

Minor Point: Oghren has some unexpected depth, it's just he rarely shows it. I was blown away by his revelation at the Gauntlet, when he interrupts the Guardian to say yes, he feels that he failed his family, was a bad husband, and has come to the surface because he doesn't feel like a dwarf anymore. If I have any criticism, it's that getting this kernel of pathos is so limited and specific, and I feel like it should've been expanded on. (But more Oghren is of course better, and could even 100 hours of Oghren be enough? I think not.)



Bigger Point: You're comparing apples and origins.



Any entertainment has a sort of 'implicit promise' to it; it's rare that I spend 50-60 dollars on a game, or even 10 dollars on a book or movie, without some idea of what I'm getting. I purchased DAO expected a length RPG with a good story (and actually, my gameplay expectations were not high and DAO quite exceeded them.) I would buy MW2 because I want fast-paced, twitchy, first-person shooter action. I get what I want out of both of them, so they're worth the money I paid for them.



I'm surprised this analogy hasn't come up yet, but it's just like movies. If you go to a summer action movie, you expect big special effects, giant 'splosions, and things of this nature. My expectations for this kind of movie are different then a comedy, or serious drama, or whatever. As long as the movie does what it's supposed to do, and does it well, is it fair to say one is 'better' then any other?



Or, if that analogy doesn't work, let's try food. Sometimes you want a fancy, fine dining dinner at an expensive restaurant. Sometimes you just want a burger.



What we should really be bemoaning is not so much that one genre is ascendant over another, as these things come and go in cycles, but that the gaming industry as a whole has become increasingly stagnant, uncreative, and unimaginative. Modern Warfare 1's great innovation was that it was NOT World War Two or Space Marines. s. It's not GOOD FPS games like Modern Warfare we should be blaming, it's the great mass of undifferentiated FPS drek. I wish the available games were more diverse, and that we had an industry where minor changes were not hailed as great innovation



(I was giddy when they announced a new MechWarrior. I feel with all my gaming systems, I should be able to pretend to pilot a Giant Robot and kill other Giant Robots. I would also like a space flight sim like Freespace. These are not radical, untried, out-there ideas, and I'm sure at some point some studio will figure out they can dominate that niche of the market instead of churning out yet another generic FPS.)



As I tried to argue above, great games are great regardless of genre. I admit to finding it worrisome, however, that the industry in general continues to ape convention. Given the mounting costs of game development, and the global recession, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. I actually give Bioware lots of credit for exploring gaming's potential as a storytelling medium.



Also, don't take the forums too seriously. Yes, it's sad that some people don't appreciate what's in front of them, but that's teh internetz for you. If Leonardo da Vinci unveiled the Mona Lisa today, there would be forums dedicated to complaining about how much it sucked. The internet is where people go to complain. I'm sure if I were to jaunt over to the MW2 forums I could find all kinds of posts about how much MW2 sucks. This is especially true just after release.



(grumble, grumble, I need to go back to school and learn game design, so I can build my own damned space flight sims, Arabian Nights-themed RPG, and counterinsurgency strategy game.)

[circa89]

Malificis wrote...

"tldr"
Oh my god that is actually hilarious. Its about 1 A4 page.
Exactly the problem I'm talking about.
Go and read Winnie the Poo. Its cool. Has pictures.

TLDR means that they don't care enough, if they actually cared they would read the whole thing. It doesn't appeal to those persons, so don't get mad. (of course I know it means too long didn't read)

There is nothing wrong with instant gratification, as the previous poster said.

[Tarante11a]

What we should really be bemoaning is not so much that one genre is ascendant over another, as these things come and go in cycles, but that the gaming industry as a whole has become increasingly stagnant, uncreative, and unimaginative. Modern Warfare 1's great innovation was that it was NOT World War Two or Space Marines. s. It's not GOOD FPS games like Modern Warfare we should be blaming, it's the great mass of undifferentiated FPS drek. I wish the available games were more diverse, and that we had an industry where minor changes were not hailed as great innovation...

....As I tried to argue above, great games are great regardless of genre. I admit to finding it worrisome, however, that the industry in general continues to ape convention. Given the mounting costs of game development, and the global recession, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. I actually give Bioware lots of credit for exploring gaming's potential as a storytelling medium.

Hear hear!

[Ariella]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Malificis wrote...
Greater Good. You dont understand Loghain if you think he cares about this.
twist on the absolute epitome of fanatic ultra patriot.
oh and elves are second class citizens here. dont forget that. think less as a 2009 gamer and more as a character in ferelden...

On the contrary, I think I understand Loghain very well. He is blinded by his hatred of Orlais to the extend that he'll do anything to stop them from entering the country. Even if that means undermining everything that he's working to protect.

He neglected to realize that he didn't have to be a complete jerk to accomplish his goal. He even admits he made mistakes once you kick his ass and show him he's being ridiculous.

Actually, Loghain's motivation goes even deeper than just his hatred of Orlais. It, in fact, goes back to his first few weekes with Maric, when they run into Flemeth and she tells both Maric and Loghain that Loghain will betray him, each time worse than the last... Loghain's desperate to prove that not to be true, but in his desperation it becomes self fulfilling (affair with Rowan, the whole Katriel's death, Cailan's death etc). I have suspicions that Flemeth set this up way back then to bring about a situation where she could produce (via Morrigan) a child with the soul of an Old God.

The whole tragedy of Loghain is that he doesn't see his own fall until it's far to late. It reminds me of the fact that someone at either Bioware or Black Isle decided to quote Nietzsche at the beginning of the Original Baldur's Gate, as Loghain is the archeotype of that behavior.