338 réponses à ce sujet

[UrgentArchengel]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

All right then.

Ok. I don't like IT because I kind of hate POORLY DONE "It was all a dreeeeeam" stories, and I kind of like the theory of the endings (execution? Not so much). Reminds me of a lot of good science fiction short stories from the 60s and early 70s. Being told my opinion is invalid, that I'm stupid if I don't interpret the endings the same way as they do, that being literal is being in denial, that my interpretation of the series is flat out wrong, and that liking control or synthesis makes me personally a bad person and my Shepards failures, all of which has happened in the past week, is rather annoying.

It's honestly biased me against indoctrination theory more than it should have. Don't get me wrong. I like arguing and discussing. Some of the best part of forums. But it's really hard to discuss when people have different base assumptions ('the endings are literally true, let's go from there' and 'it was all a dreeeeeam'), and aren't particularly willing to accept alternate interpretations. And yeah. It's really hard to find a thread discussing synthesis, destroy, control and their ramifications without someone buzzing through and changing the topic to why indoctrination theory is true and why don't you look at these file names?

I'm willing to discuss the endings at face value. I discussed them with someone who is vehemently for Synthesis and through discussion, began to understand her logic. I just don't like to be insulted, nor do I like when people use words or terms incorrectly. So really, neither side likes being insulted but both sides have people who insult the other side or take someone having a difference of opinion too personally.

[Hadeedak]

Hah, sounds like UrgentArchangel has had the negaversion of my experiences. Except regarding denial of the endings, instead I'm close minded for taking a video game at face value. And I like to think, as well, that I'm not a jerk. A little snide on occasion, perhaps. And I also like to believe I'm plenty grown up.

And yeah, everyone has too many people kneejerking and being crabby when we're all talking about a game we love. Well... I'm going to go read this thread so I can contribute to whatever I was actually supposed to be discussing if I find something I want to weigh in on. Once again. Sorry about that. I don't think I'll edit my posts, though. Lord knows meltdowns should be preserved for posterity. >>

Modifié par Hadeedak, 18 mai 2012 - 01:47 .

[Soaringeagle78]

I don't believe IT. Some people look at it like "Bioware hasn't denied it, so it could be true."
I personally am the opposite, "Bioware hasn't said it's true, so I don't believe IT."
I couldn't care less if people believe it or not. Until Bioware says so, I'm just leisurely waiting for some new news.

[BatmanTurian]

Soaringeagle78 wrote...

I don't believe IT. Some people look at it like "Bioware hasn't denied it, so it could be true."
I personally am the opposite, "Bioware hasn't said it's true, so I don't believe IT."
I couldn't care less if people believe it or not. Until Bioware says so, I'm just leisurely waiting for some new news.

That's how I see the argument at it's basic level. People either believe in Bioware or dont. Glass is half full or it's half empty. Pessimist or Optimist with some rare people in-between.

[Hadeedak]

Oooooh. It's a 'why do I go into indoctrination threads' one.

Ok. I lurk on a lot of threads because playing forums is fun. I don't tend to jump in 'pure' IT threads. But sometimes someone asks a pertinent question that just begs me for an answer or it seems like debate is being invited. Or... well, as previously mentioned, I thought I was in a regular old ending thread and that turned out to be a foolish assumption shortly after people began posting. I mean, I find it and the endings interesting enough to talk, debate, and play around with at length, so that's a good thing.

Or. In this case, I thought I was posting in something totally different and CLEARLY I need more coffee.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 18 mai 2012 - 01:54 .

[xsdob]

Becasue anything shoved in my face as much as a jehova's witness trying to get me to convert is going to drive me crazy and make me libel to snap at whoever brings it up next.

That's why I don't like it, over saturation and the disqualification of my choices and philosophy. And no, my shepard waking up indoctrinated and having to kill himself is not a good consolation prize for me, why not just say me shepard died from a hemeroid while your at it, that'd be just as insulting.

Modifié par xsdob, 18 mai 2012 - 01:54 .

[garrusfan1]

alright I really can`t believe anything bioware says anymore and IT can be considered clarification
but I believe they will make ec but honestly I think I would believe a man saying the sky is falling before I believe bioware

[hoodaticus]

Soaringeagle78 wrote...

I don't believe IT. Some people look at it like "Bioware hasn't denied it, so it could be true."
I personally am the opposite, "Bioware hasn't said it's true, so I don't believe IT."
I couldn't care less if people believe it or not. Until Bioware says so, I'm just leisurely waiting for some new news.

My interpretations of art do not depend on the intent of the artist.  The art speaks for itself.  Its meaning is not limited by the capacity of its creator to understand what they have created.

If a savant created a soul-shearing masterpiece on canvas, exposing the depths of the human spirit with every brushstroke, and merely thought they were drawing a plain old sunset with no hidden meaning (because of their diminished mental capacity or perhaps schizophrenia) - the art would still carry all the themes it reflected.

Artist intent is irrelevant.  If I blindfold myself and spatter paint randomly, if I pull my mask off and find I have painted an erotic love scene - then that's what the painting is.  Whether I know that or not.

IT is the best explanation for this ending no matter what Bioware says about it.  Its truth is not dependent on EC.  EC can only obsolete IT by providing an even more convincing explanation.

Modifié par hoodaticus, 18 mai 2012 - 02:05 .

[BatmanTurian]

xsdob wrote...

Becasue anything shoved in my face as much as a jehova's witness trying to get me to convert is going to drive me crazy and make me libel to snap at whoever brings it up next.

That's why I don't like it, over saturation and the disqualification of my choices and philosophy. And no, my shepard waking up indoctrinated and having to kill himself is not a good consolation prize for me, why not just say me shepard died from a hemeroid while your at it, that'd be just as insulting.

This is a forum where we discuss things. The ending and the developers encouraged speculations. You are annoyed that people dicuss things on a discussion forum.

At any rate, there are some, like myself, who can understand and respect the face-value interpretation. I may not agree with it, but I believe you have a right to hold it.

[Soaringeagle78]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Soaringeagle78 wrote...

I don't believe IT. Some people look at it like "Bioware hasn't denied it, so it could be true."
I personally am the opposite, "Bioware hasn't said it's true, so I don't believe IT."
I couldn't care less if people believe it or not. Until Bioware says so, I'm just leisurely waiting for some new news.

That's how I see the argument at it's basic level. People either believe in Bioware or dont. Glass is half full or it's half empty. Pessimist or Optimist with some rare people in-between.

Yup. Either way, I drank it.
The name calling srsly needs to stop though. Frankly at this point, it's like watching some neighbors' cats fighting. It's awful, but I just can't look away.

[Sisterofshane]

xsdob wrote...

Becasue anything shoved in my face as much as a jehova's witness trying to get me to convert is going to drive me crazy and make me libel to snap at whoever brings it up next.

That's why I don't like it, over saturation and the disqualification of my choices and philosophy. And no, my shepard waking up indoctrinated and having to kill himself is not a good consolation prize for me, why not just say me shepard died from a hemeroid while your at it, that'd be just as insulting.

LOL, it might be for someone else, looking for a "tragic hero" ending to their Shepard.

Just like how some people like to play the games trying to get as many people as possible (including Shepard himself in ME2) killed.  Some people like that kind of "story".

The only problem with IT is that once the game was published, that's exactly what it was - either an incomplete ending, or a face-value true ending.  And to those that have accepted it as "true" (I happen to be one of them), we don't like the idea of OUR FIRST decision needing to be changed in order to get the kind of ending we want.

[BatmanTurian]

Soaringeagle78 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Soaringeagle78 wrote...

I don't believe IT. Some people look at it like "Bioware hasn't denied it, so it could be true."
I personally am the opposite, "Bioware hasn't said it's true, so I don't believe IT."
I couldn't care less if people believe it or not. Until Bioware says so, I'm just leisurely waiting for some new news.

That's how I see the argument at it's basic level. People either believe in Bioware or dont. Glass is half full or it's half empty. Pessimist or Optimist with some rare people in-between.

Yup. Either way, I drank it.
The name calling srsly needs to stop though. Frankly at this point, it's like watching some neighbors' cats fighting. It's awful, but I just can't look away.

totally agree. We're supposed to discuss and debate, but it's hard to do that when one cannot even be afforded respect before one has even posted a word. At this point, both interpretations are technically valid.

[Hadeedak]

Hey, I kind of like tragic heroes. So I was happy with my damn control heroic sacrifice ending.

I think I'd have to struggle to do a destroy heroic sacrifice (no breath) ending just because I like multiplayer a bit, when I have time for Mass Effect anyway... And seeing the galaxy in red grinds my gears. "WELL, FINE. LET'S GET BACK TO PUSHING THE REAPERS BACK STEADILY. SADDLE UP, ENGINEER AND VANGUARD. WE HAVE WORK TO DO."

Though it is sort of funny to see how awful some of the "Commander Shepard makes the worst choices" Shepards are...

[BatmanTurian]

Sisterofshane wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Becasue anything shoved in my face as much as a jehova's witness trying to get me to convert is going to drive me crazy and make me libel to snap at whoever brings it up next.

That's why I don't like it, over saturation and the disqualification of my choices and philosophy. And no, my shepard waking up indoctrinated and having to kill himself is not a good consolation prize for me, why not just say me shepard died from a hemeroid while your at it, that'd be just as insulting.

LOL, it might be for someone else, looking for a "tragic hero" ending to their Shepard.

Just like how some people like to play the games trying to get as many people as possible (including Shepard himself in ME2) killed.  Some people like that kind of "story".

The only problem with IT is that once the game was published, that's exactly what it was - either an incomplete ending, or a face-value true ending.  And to those that have accepted it as "true" (I happen to be one of them), we don't like the idea of OUR FIRST decision needing to be changed in order to get the kind of ending we want.

You know, it's perfectly plausible that the " wrong choices " could still work out. Maybe not be as happy but still turn out good, ya know? I don't know how to phrase it. Basically, if you are offended because you think that we are telling you you made the wrong choice, it may not even matter. Your LI or Anderson or whatever could help you break free and you could still take the Reapers down. I'm just saying that even if they go with IT, it doesn't mean the other two endings will necessarily be completely bad.

[xsdob]

Batman Turian, your approach with the IT is pretty good, and I've seen that version thrown around a little bit, but I've seen a lot more simply say that the choice is wrong and that any one who makes it is morally wrong for doing so.  I am also not angry about IT persay. I am angry about how the IT is drowning out all other discussions, especially non-anti ending discussions that get posted here. You guys can discuss to your hearts content, you have your own mega thread to do it in, plus all the other pro-indoctrination threads that get made.

But all of that isn't enough because every non-joke thread inevitably becomes a pro-destroy and pro-indoctrination thread within about 4 to 6 pages of the original post.

Oversaturation can make anything seem bad, even your not so bad theory.

Also I picked control as well and like the heroric sacrifice type ending given, but if IT is true than that ending I liked is a lie and I am actually now a husk that will kill my friends and love interest without any input from myself. That seems to be the most widley accepted and proposed outcome of my choice.

And I would still have to download the extended cut dlc even if it was all about the indoctriantion theory because that's the only way I could see an expansion on the ending I liked, and not be left with the bitter taste of confirmed deniel in my mouth and in my save.

Tried to do something similar by deleteing the banished prince dlc from dragonage 2 to keep anders alive, and It just felt like I was kidding myself about it.

Modifié par xsdob, 18 mai 2012 - 02:15 .

[Sisterofshane]

Hadeedak wrote...

Hey, I kind of like tragic heroes. So I was happy with my damn control heroic sacrifice ending.

I think I'd have to struggle to do a destroy heroic sacrifice (no breath) ending just because I like multiplayer a bit, when I have time for Mass Effect anyway... And seeing the galaxy in red grinds my gears. "WELL, FINE. LET'S GET BACK TO PUSHING THE REAPERS BACK STEADILY. SADDLE UP, ENGINEER AND VANGUARD. WE HAVE WORK TO DO."

Though it is sort of funny to see how awful some of the "Commander Shepard makes the worst choices" Shepards are...

I fully expected for Shepard to be forced into the sacrificial-type ending.  The breath sequence (at face value) confuses the heck out of me.

As it is though, I think that Mordin got a better death than Shepard did in most endings.  At least he was memorialised afterwards.  I always imagine the Synthesis ending has half-synthetic creatures spitting on my grave and cursing my name.

[ShepnTali]

It's like arguing about the wind. From the different views, first person says they see the wind because the leaves are rustling. The second person says you can't see wind!


EC will close the book on the wind.

[BatmanTurian]

xsdob wrote...

Why not rally for all three endings to be better? Why is it only destroy has to be a good outcome, can't a high ems be enough? I've seen this approach of IT taken by about 5 people, the rest just say that the other options are wrong and that the people who pick them are both rationally and morally wrong.

And Batman Turian, I am angry about how the IT is drowning out all other discussions, especially non-anti ending discussions that get posted here. You guys can discuss to your hearts content, you have your own mega thread to do it in, plus all the other pro-indoctrination threads that get made.

But all of that isn't enough because every non-joke thread inevitably becomes a pro-destroy and pro-indoctrination thread within about 4 to 6 pages of the original post.

Oversaturation can make anything seem bad, even your not so bad theory.

read what I said to that guy above. IT says blue and green are reaperthink but the endings don't necessarily have to be bad. We don't know what they are going to do with those endings.

At any rate, again, you are upset that people are discussing things on a discussion forum. It's not nice to want to violate the free speech of others. I'm fine with whatever you believe. But I think I should be afforded the same respect. I'm not pushing it in your face. You can go into an IT thread or not. I don't think it's very nice to want to force us to be relegated to a thread ghetto.

[balance5050]

Can't wait for the EC to *extend* the Shepard_Alive scene.

[Hadeedak]

Yeah, I think all 3 endings are good and valid, and indoctrination theory is interesting -- I mean, I enjoy looking at the evidence and I've watched most of the videos -- but to hear some people tell it (or even me on a bad day or for humorous hyperbole), this @&#^@ is serious and if you don't agree, you probably kick puppies and electrocute goldfish.

Serious people need to calm down.

And probably listen to this. It makes everything better with Aquaman.

[Sisterofshane]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Becasue anything shoved in my face as much as a jehova's witness trying to get me to convert is going to drive me crazy and make me libel to snap at whoever brings it up next.

That's why I don't like it, over saturation and the disqualification of my choices and philosophy. And no, my shepard waking up indoctrinated and having to kill himself is not a good consolation prize for me, why not just say me shepard died from a hemeroid while your at it, that'd be just as insulting.

LOL, it might be for someone else, looking for a "tragic hero" ending to their Shepard.

Just like how some people like to play the games trying to get as many people as possible (including Shepard himself in ME2) killed.  Some people like that kind of "story".

The only problem with IT is that once the game was published, that's exactly what it was - either an incomplete ending, or a face-value true ending.  And to those that have accepted it as "true" (I happen to be one of them), we don't like the idea of OUR FIRST decision needing to be changed in order to get the kind of ending we want.

You know, it's perfectly plausible that the " wrong choices " could still work out. Maybe not be as happy but still turn out good, ya know? I don't know how to phrase it. Basically, if you are offended because you think that we are telling you you made the wrong choice, it may not even matter. Your LI or Anderson or whatever could help you break free and you could still take the Reapers down. I'm just saying that even if they go with IT, it doesn't mean the other two endings will necessarily be completely bad.

I thought the email from Shiala was really good evidence for this - she was indoctrinated, but her connection to everyone in Feros was stronger.  It kind of fits in the theme of building a strong team with strong relationships in order to "win".  This would have been a really nice reward for those of us who took the time to recruit everyone and complete loyalty missions in ME2, without losing any of the crew of the Normandy.

[Hadeedak]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

Hey, I kind of like tragic heroes. So I was happy with my damn control heroic sacrifice ending.

I think I'd have to struggle to do a destroy heroic sacrifice (no breath) ending just because I like multiplayer a bit, when I have time for Mass Effect anyway... And seeing the galaxy in red grinds my gears. "WELL, FINE. LET'S GET BACK TO PUSHING THE REAPERS BACK STEADILY. SADDLE UP, ENGINEER AND VANGUARD. WE HAVE WORK TO DO."

Though it is sort of funny to see how awful some of the "Commander Shepard makes the worst choices" Shepards are...

I fully expected for Shepard to be forced into the sacrificial-type ending.  The breath sequence (at face value) confuses the heck out of me.

As it is though, I think that Mordin got a better death than Shepard did in most endings.  At least he was memorialised afterwards.  I always imagine the Synthesis ending has half-synthetic creatures spitting on my grave and cursing my name.

At least Buzz Aldrin likes Shepard. That's someone! 

[BatmanTurian]

xsdob wrote...

Batman Turian, your approach with the IT is pretty good, and I've seen that version thrown around a little bit, but I've seen a lot more simply say that the choice is wrong and that any one who makes it is morally wrong for doing so.  I am also not angry about IT persay. I am angry about how the IT is drowning out all other discussions, especially non-anti ending discussions that get posted here. You guys can discuss to your hearts content, you have your own mega thread to do it in, plus all the other pro-indoctrination threads that get made.

But all of that isn't enough because every non-joke thread inevitably becomes a pro-destroy and pro-indoctrination thread within about 4 to 6 pages of the original post.

Oversaturation can make anything seem bad, even your not so bad theory.

you changed your post. ... at any rate. People are dicussing the endings. IT is discussion of the endings. I'm sorry if it annoys you but I've never gone into the " So we can't get the ending we want " thread and trolled people. I think people should be able to discuss their opinions and not be insulted for having them.

[Sisterofshane]

Hadeedak wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

Hey, I kind of like tragic heroes. So I was happy with my damn control heroic sacrifice ending.

I think I'd have to struggle to do a destroy heroic sacrifice (no breath) ending just because I like multiplayer a bit, when I have time for Mass Effect anyway... And seeing the galaxy in red grinds my gears. "WELL, FINE. LET'S GET BACK TO PUSHING THE REAPERS BACK STEADILY. SADDLE UP, ENGINEER AND VANGUARD. WE HAVE WORK TO DO."

Though it is sort of funny to see how awful some of the "Commander Shepard makes the worst choices" Shepards are...

I fully expected for Shepard to be forced into the sacrificial-type ending.  The breath sequence (at face value) confuses the heck out of me.

As it is though, I think that Mordin got a better death than Shepard did in most endings.  At least he was memorialised afterwards.  I always imagine the Synthesis ending has half-synthetic creatures spitting on my grave and cursing my name.

At least Buzz Aldrin likes Shepard. That's someone! 

Lol, personally, I loved the stargazer scene.  It's too bad that the ending overshadowed such a sweet moment.

[xsdob]

Batman Turian, I changed my post, I tried to do it as quickly as possible but I type slowly.

I liked what you said and your verison of IT, but It's not the version I see brought up all the time. Also it's more the volume of IT post rather than the content, because they tend to eclipse and block out other discussions occurring in the thread they are posted in.

You helped me to improve my post, so thank you.