The point is when it comes to spoilers in the title - there is no going back - there IS no avoiding it - it's there and you are are spoiled just by entering the forums - it's a major issue for people like me who play the game for ages before ever completing it and for new people too.
Not bein able to enter the SPOILER forum is not quite as bad but now that most of the tactical and gameplay discussion has moved to the gameplay forum that puts that forum off limits to anyone who doesn't want to be spoiled as well - just becuase we don't want to have to do anything to teach people not to post spoilers in titles???
I'm sorry but if a pop-up or an extra screen before getting to the post topic screen will help solve that problem then I think it's a good move.
Spoilers and this forum
Débuté par
Astorax
, déc. 09 2009 10:41
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#27
Posté 10 décembre 2009 - 07:51
Astorax
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As Torias said, it's getting people to follow the policy which is the battle. Popups, for me, are also quite annoying. I don't want to have to click through a few popups just to post a thread, that seems excessive to me.
As for Lacan2's response that I'm being draconic about spoilers.
There's a very clear policy that has been laid out for what a spoiler is. You violated it, I edited your post. You did not simply make reference to an NPC name, you quoted part of their dialog with allusions to a specific conversation.
That's a spoiler in that it sets expectations for a player playing the game. They now expect that conversation to occur even if they don't know the specifics and when playing it leads to this reaction, "Ah, there's that conversation they were talking about." That takes away from the experience of the game. It breaks the flow of the game's immersion and takes the player back to a post on the boards they read.
That's what avoiding spoilers is all about. Avoiding that break in the immersion to a forum thread they read. To take it to the extreme, for example, you could say, "Dude, there's this awesome epic battle that happens." Now players know there's an epic battle in there and when it happens they go "Oh hey, this is what Astorax was talking about." Now they aren't experiencing just this awesome epic battle, they're thinking about some poster on some forum that talked about it.
Some people feel very strongly about NOT having that happen to their gaming experience.
While I can't stamp on everything, in a forum that specifically advertises that it doesn't ruin that experience for you, I will do what I can to keep those things to a minimum.
Having said that, there are lines. I'm not going to eliminate all discussion that mentions an NPC name, because as you said, that would be stupid. But mentioning specific lines of dialog (which you did) and mentioning any kind of context (which you did) I will do my best to eliminate.
If there are posts that are missed, or threads that have such things in them, please do as other posters have suggested. Do NOT respond as then it will fall off the front page quickly and thus not be read by as many people, and please DO tell moderators about it. I'm fairly active when I can be, I know Torias and Eurypterid are also quite active in these forums, and we'll be adding more moderators soon hopefully that will also be able to keep a closer eye on this sort of thing.
p.s. Yes, I'm a big meanie. I have a ban hammer. Pheer me.
As for Lacan2's response that I'm being draconic about spoilers.
There's a very clear policy that has been laid out for what a spoiler is. You violated it, I edited your post. You did not simply make reference to an NPC name, you quoted part of their dialog with allusions to a specific conversation.
That's a spoiler in that it sets expectations for a player playing the game. They now expect that conversation to occur even if they don't know the specifics and when playing it leads to this reaction, "Ah, there's that conversation they were talking about." That takes away from the experience of the game. It breaks the flow of the game's immersion and takes the player back to a post on the boards they read.
That's what avoiding spoilers is all about. Avoiding that break in the immersion to a forum thread they read. To take it to the extreme, for example, you could say, "Dude, there's this awesome epic battle that happens." Now players know there's an epic battle in there and when it happens they go "Oh hey, this is what Astorax was talking about." Now they aren't experiencing just this awesome epic battle, they're thinking about some poster on some forum that talked about it.
Some people feel very strongly about NOT having that happen to their gaming experience.
While I can't stamp on everything, in a forum that specifically advertises that it doesn't ruin that experience for you, I will do what I can to keep those things to a minimum.
Having said that, there are lines. I'm not going to eliminate all discussion that mentions an NPC name, because as you said, that would be stupid. But mentioning specific lines of dialog (which you did) and mentioning any kind of context (which you did) I will do my best to eliminate.
If there are posts that are missed, or threads that have such things in them, please do as other posters have suggested. Do NOT respond as then it will fall off the front page quickly and thus not be read by as many people, and please DO tell moderators about it. I'm fairly active when I can be, I know Torias and Eurypterid are also quite active in these forums, and we'll be adding more moderators soon hopefully that will also be able to keep a closer eye on this sort of thing.
p.s. Yes, I'm a big meanie. I have a ban hammer. Pheer me.
#28
Posté 10 décembre 2009 - 07:52
Lacan2
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Godeshus wrote...
Lacan2 wrote...
Astorax wrote...
Lacan2, really?
You're going to post spoilers in the don't post spoilers thread? Dude...
WTF???
Uh, that's not really a spoiler. I just said literally "an event with [insert character] later." That's a pretty extreme spoiler policy, since absolutely nobody could guess what happens based on what I said. I could have said "an event happens with Morrigan", "an event happens with Logain", "an event happens with Arl Eamon", and it would be the same. Don't be absurd.
You know what's even more hilarious? That spoiler (actually there are several references to it in that thread) is still sitting in that thread. I guess if I were modding I'd be more worried about that than "[insert character] did something later"
Perhaps someone hasn't even picked up the game yet, and is looking for information, notices this forum title, and comes to check out how to properly post in this forum. See underlined text below, from the ORIGINAL POST.Astorax wrote...
For those confused, a spoiler is ANY INFORMATION about the game. NPC names/descriptions, event descriptions, discussion of special moments, those things are completely off limits.
Then why are there spoilers on Dragon Age's website? I mean, anyone who is looking for info about the game is blasted with pics/names/descriptions of characters. Half the threads in this "non spoiler" section have names everywhere.
<_<
BTW, the thread is still there with spoilers inside. A mod replied "don't post spoilers" in that very thread, and there they are! Unedited in their full spoilery glory even as I write this (and have told the above mod about it).
Astorax wrote...
As Torias said, it's getting people to
follow the policy which is the battle. Popups, for me, are also quite
annoying. I don't want to have to click through a few popups just to
post a thread, that seems excessive to me.
As for Lacan2's response that I'm being draconic about spoilers.
There's
a very clear policy that has been laid out for what a spoiler is. You
violated it, I edited your post. You did not simply make reference to
an NPC name, you quoted part of their dialog with allusions to a
specific conversation.
That's a spoiler in that it sets
expectations for a player playing the game. They now expect that
conversation to occur even if they don't know the specifics and when
playing it leads to this reaction, "Ah, there's that conversation they
were talking about." That takes away from the experience of the game.
It breaks the flow of the game's immersion and takes the player back to
a post on the boards they read.
That's what avoiding spoilers is
all about. Avoiding that break in the immersion to a forum thread they
read. To take it to the extreme, for example, you could say, "Dude,
there's this awesome epic battle that happens." Now players know
there's an epic battle in there and when it happens they go "Oh hey,
this is what Astorax was talking about." Now they aren't experiencing
just this awesome epic battle, they're thinking about some poster on
some forum that talked about it.
Some people feel very strongly about NOT having that happen to their gaming experience.
While
I can't stamp on everything, in a forum that specifically advertises
that it doesn't ruin that experience for you, I will do what I can to
keep those things to a minimum.
Having said that, there are
lines. I'm not going to eliminate all discussion that mentions an NPC
name, because as you said, that would be stupid. But mentioning
specific lines of dialog (which you did) and mentioning any kind of
context (which you did) I will do my best to eliminate.
If there
are posts that are missed, or threads that have such things in them,
please do as other posters have suggested. Do NOT respond as then it
will fall off the front page quickly and thus not be read by as many
people, and please DO tell moderators about it. I'm fairly active when
I can be, I know Torias and Eurypterid are also quite active in these
forums, and we'll be adding more moderators soon hopefully that will
also be able to keep a closer eye on this sort of thing.
p.s. Yes, I'm a big meanie. I have a ban hammer. Pheer me.
Yeah right. The title of my thead is still there, and his "line" has become a forum meme in just about every non-serious thread. It's by far the most posted line from the game. Hard to take your policy seriously when it's still sitting there, and "you hope not too many people are spoiled by it since it fell off the main page." You know people search and stuff, right?
Modifié par Lacan2, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:59 .
#29
Posté 10 décembre 2009 - 07:55
Astorax
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Lacan2 wrote...
Then why are there spoilers on Dragon Age's website? I mean, anyone who is looking for info about the game is blasted with pics/names/descriptions of characters. Half the threads in this "non spoiler" section have names everywhere.
<_<
There's a fine line between spoiler and advertising.
I was being a tad extreme in the NPC names/descriptions department to make a point. I'm not going to edit every reference to an NPC name (particularly those that the company have already plastered all over the website) but if you set the line at such extremes, it gives us wiggle room to be a bit less restrictive, thus becoming the good guys. If I set the bar lower, then people will dip even below that more often.
Modifié par Astorax, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:55 .
#31
Posté 10 décembre 2009 - 07:59
Lacan2
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Astorax wrote...
What thread?
If I post the name, you'll call it a spoiler! Just think of a funny dude who says "X? X!" It's in my history. I created the thread, the title is "X?"
Modifié par Lacan2, 10 décembre 2009 - 08:02 .
#32
Posté 10 décembre 2009 - 08:54
wanderon
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Astorax wrote...
As Torias said, it's getting people to follow the policy which is the battle. Popups, for me, are also quite annoying. I don't want to have to click through a few popups just to post a thread, that seems excessive to me.
.
Actually I'm not at all certain that getting people to FOLLOW the rule is the only issue - especially when it comes to spoilers in topic titles - I think many people just don't think about what they are doing and may not even be aware that spoilers in the title is a no no - especially when posting in a forum that allows spoilers!
Angry forumite: what do you mean I can't post spoilers in the title? Isn't this the SPOILER FORUM...duh...
Thus my suggestion to put some sort of notice that is difficult to overlook in the topic posting screen warning against dire repercussions for posting spoilers in the topic title would inform those who don't know and/or remind those who did know but forgot.
As for pop-ups - if thats not possible then just put a banner thats not likely to be overlooked right above the area where one types in their topic title.
In other words take some sort of action to inform people right at the point when they are likely to commit the error in an effort to reduce the number of folks making the error.
Noting that a stiff penalty will be applied for ignoring the warning would probably make it more effective as well. If someone is posting a topic they probably don't want to have to sit out a 3 day suspension before they can interact with that topic again.
#33
Posté 10 décembre 2009 - 10:20
Astorax
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There's a sticky thread in the spoilers forums that says, don't post spoilers in the titles of your threads...
We can't really be any more clear than that. o.O
In my warnings to people, I reference the ban hammer if they don't fall in line (this is PM warnings, not the warnings I post in threads people, there's an escalation)
We can't really be any more clear than that. o.O
In my warnings to people, I reference the ban hammer if they don't fall in line (this is PM warnings, not the warnings I post in threads people, there's an escalation)
#34
Guest_Akshara_*
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 12:09
Guest_Akshara_*
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Well I have had the ending ruined, and learned about future battles and deaths with major characters, all from spoilers posted in Thread Topics in the Gameplay forum. And learned about a major plot ending in the Xbox Technical Support forum in the patch thread, which I had to personally confront the poster about to get removed, even though I submitted a complaint about it. So the current "policy" isn't working.Astorax wrote...
There's a sticky thread in the spoilers forums that says, don't post spoilers in the titles of your threads...
We can't really be any more clear than that. o.O
In my warnings to people, I reference the ban hammer if they don't fall in line (this is PM warnings, not the warnings I post in threads people, there's an escalation)
To be completely honest, Astorax, most of what has been posted in this thread, while it sounds very good and has the appearance of being hard-lined, is somewhat meaningless because the threads are not edited or removed.
Frankly, I had the same thing happen with Jade Empire and Mass Effect, where key plot twists were posted in Thread Topics, even in the Non-Spoilers forum, and nothing was done about it there either. When I have asked or confronted Bioware Moderators in the past about this, all I received was the obligatory "we can't edit every post" excuse, which is really not all that helpful or useful to hear, again.
So from my perspective, I'd prefer that the moderators either do something practical to help with the situation or to simply stop talking about it.
Yes, I'm a bit irritated at having learned so many spoilers on this forum, even with my best efforts to avoid them. And while I appreciate the "official" sentiments expressed here, as an objective community member, the impression I've gleaned is that the Bioware Moderator staff could genuinely care Iess if spoilers are posted or not, at least outside of threads like this one.
"Take it for what it's worth."
Modifié par Akshara, 11 décembre 2009 - 12:12 .
#35
Guest_Akshara_*
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 12:10
Guest_Akshara_*
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... and someone please fix the double posting and editing problems. When you get time, that is.
Modifié par Akshara, 11 décembre 2009 - 12:11 .
#36
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 01:12
adam_nox
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Astorax wrote...
If you are found to be doing it repeatedly, a warning will be issued. If the warning is not honored, further action will be taken.
No it won't. Most of your fanbase doesn't understand or care to register their game copies so they can ask a simple question. You aren't doing to do anything about it but blow smoke.
#37
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 01:29
Astorax
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You wanna 24 hr vacation adam_nox? Be more insulting.
It's been stated that there were problems previously about moderators not having teeth. We do now.
Those that don't feel like taking the time to register their game here, don't care to participate in the continuing community, and that's fine, it's not a prerequisite for enjoying the game. However, not registering the game limits your ability to participate.
To speak to Akshara's point, there's no way for you to know how many posts are getting moved/deleted/edited because there is no trail that's left.
Rest assured I am spending an inordinant amount of time moving/warning/deleting/editing posts in this forum to try to shield you guys from spoilers. There are a number of factors working against us, the most important of which is the fact that the game is kinda popular and has a LOT of people coming to the site. There's very little (now) repeat offense of spoiler posting, but there's a very large volume of people coming through the site and posting. I'm sorry if you've had your experience ruined by reading a spoiler here.
Let me ask you, what would you do differently? How would you solve the problem?
It's been stated that there were problems previously about moderators not having teeth. We do now.
Those that don't feel like taking the time to register their game here, don't care to participate in the continuing community, and that's fine, it's not a prerequisite for enjoying the game. However, not registering the game limits your ability to participate.
To speak to Akshara's point, there's no way for you to know how many posts are getting moved/deleted/edited because there is no trail that's left.
Rest assured I am spending an inordinant amount of time moving/warning/deleting/editing posts in this forum to try to shield you guys from spoilers. There are a number of factors working against us, the most important of which is the fact that the game is kinda popular and has a LOT of people coming to the site. There's very little (now) repeat offense of spoiler posting, but there's a very large volume of people coming through the site and posting. I'm sorry if you've had your experience ruined by reading a spoiler here.
Let me ask you, what would you do differently? How would you solve the problem?
Modifié par Astorax, 11 décembre 2009 - 01:29 .
#38
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 01:46
Wickedjelly
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It was ridiculous the amount of people that would post obvious spoiler content such as story elements or certain events.
On the other hand, some here really overreact to the length they will deem something as being spoiler material.
Frankly, I find them to be just as annoying and rude as the ones that write spoilers but that's just me.
On the other hand, some here really overreact to the length they will deem something as being spoiler material.
Frankly, I find them to be just as annoying and rude as the ones that write spoilers but that's just me.
#39
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 02:02
Druscylla
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Being a moderator is fun. 
I want mod powers every time I find a "I know I am not supposed to post spoilers here BUT I'm a speshul snowflake" thread. I am a fully registered member and I beat the game once but I still stay out of the spoiler forum for a reason I hate having things ruined.
I want mod powers every time I find a "I know I am not supposed to post spoilers here BUT I'm a speshul snowflake" thread. I am a fully registered member and I beat the game once but I still stay out of the spoiler forum for a reason I hate having things ruined.
#40
Guest_Akshara_*
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 02:12
Guest_Akshara_*
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Astorax wrote...
To speak to Akshara's point, there's no way for you to know how many posts are getting moved/deleted/edited because there is no trail that's left.
Rest assured I am spending an inordinant amount of time moving/warning/deleting/editing posts in this forum to try to shield you guys from spoilers.
I understand and appreciate this. What I do know is that there are an inordinate amount of campaign, quest and character related spoilers within thread topics in the Gameplay forum right now.
Astorax wrote...
I'm sorry if you've had your experience ruined by reading a spoiler here.
Let me ask you, what would you do differently? How would you solve the problem?
Thank you for that, and for asking. I recognize that it's a complex problem, especially on a forum with this amount of traffic. I do have a few ideas which might help, or may at least help you think through a better solution.
Firstly, I would post a very clear Do Not Post Spoilers In Subjects sticky, with something similar yet clear as the subject line, along with a post that clearly details the consequences of doing so and what to expect, and what is expected in that forum. Currently there is not one, and the Gameplay Forum thread does not reference it at all.
Secondly, I would change the title of the Gameplay forum to Game Mechanics Discussion, to further delineate it from Campaign or Story discussion. There seems to be a lot of storyline, quest and character related discussion going on in there which should really be in the other forum. Admittedly, "gameplay" covers everything.
Thirdly, task at least one of the moderators to cleaning Topic Threads as their first priority. Their first job is to scan the forum of new topics and move/edit/delete topics that have spoilers in the subject, before doing anything else, even If that's all they have time for that day.
And finally, consider enforcing a zero tolerance delete thread policy, since no one likes to have their threads deleted, and put first time offenders into a moderated queue. This can save time for the moderator staff, as long as there is also a clear and upfront "we don't respond to PMs about your deleted spoiler thread" policy.
For any of this to work, the rules and expectations from the community need to be clearly and succinctly defined, so that there is no ambiguity with what is allowed and what is not; and then the moderators have to follow through.
Again, I recognize it is a complicated issue, and appreciate that you are looking for ways to make it better.
#41
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 03:09
LordMacharius
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hi, im new to the dragon age world and i love it. It's a lot of fun. I'm having a hard time understanding this battle tactic option. What i mean by that is that i'm having a hard time making it work for me. I keep losing the battles and i have to redo them alot of times. Can someone here simplify this for me or give me a better understanding of this. Maybe theirs some standard tactic i could just leave on. any help would be appreciated
#42
Guest_Akshara_*
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 03:13
Guest_Akshara_*
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Priceless... and yet if we send this person to the Gameplay forum, they will likely discover that so and so's so and so is so and so.
#43
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 03:58
Astorax
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Akshara wrote...
Firstly, I would post a very clear Do Not Post Spoilers In Subjects sticky, with something similar yet clear as the subject line, along with a post that clearly details the consequences of doing so and what to expect, and what is expected in that forum. Currently there is not one, and the Gameplay Forum thread does not reference it at all.
Secondly, I would change the title of the Gameplay forum to Game Mechanics Discussion, to further delineate it from Campaign or Story discussion. There seems to be a lot of storyline, quest and character related discussion going on in there which should really be in the other forum. Admittedly, "gameplay" covers everything.
I can definitely see about these suggestions, I think they're good ones (although I swear there was a sticky in the gameplay forum about that too, but there isn't).
Thirdly, task at least one of the moderators to cleaning Topic Threads as their first priority. Their first job is to scan the forum of new topics and move/edit/delete topics that have spoilers in the subject, before doing anything else, even If that's all they have time for that day.
Manpower...lackin it sucks. That should be rectified soon (hopefully).
And finally, consider enforcing a zero tolerance delete thread policy, since no one likes to have their threads deleted, and put first time offenders into a moderated queue. This can save time for the moderator staff, as long as there is also a clear and upfront "we don't respond to PMs about your deleted spoiler thread" policy.
Deleting threads isn't necessary unless it's malicious. Moving is sufficient. That combined with a warning from a mod is enough to deter 2nd offenders 99% of the time. It's not the problem from repeats...it's a problem from new folks. Like I said, we have HUGE amounts of new traffic, and that's the cause of the problem, not repeats.
For any of this to work, the rules and expectations from the community need to be clearly and succinctly defined, so that there is no ambiguity with what is allowed and what is not; and then the moderators have to follow through.
Again, I recognize it is a complicated issue, and appreciate that you are looking for ways to make it better.
Hence all the discussion you wanted me to stop doing.
I'm raising awareness of the issue and defining what is and isn't okay. 
#44
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 04:33
kormesios
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Lacan2 wrote...
Then why are there spoilers on Dragon Age's website? I mean, anyone who is looking for info about the game is blasted with pics/names/descriptions of characters. Half the threads in this "non spoiler" section have names everywhere.
<_<
Speaking as someone who tries hard to not find out spoilers before the game was released, it's pretty easy to avoid them on the official web site. I learned the name of three NPCs and the rough plot of two origin stories, and those mostly before I decided I was going to buy and got rigorous about avoiding them. While still managing to figure out class names, release dates, general plot, etc.
This is of course personal taste, and I completely understand that some people don't care that they have a good idea what's going on before they play, maybe even want to sketch out in their head which companions will be theirs. But other people do care. I personally enjoy meeting an NPC and kind of wondering if they are recruitable--or, even more, I dislike meeting one and *knowing* they'll join up with me at some future point.
I can't believe the number of spoiler threads that have included the comment, after being called on it, "Heh, it's not a spoiler, it was in the video X." Yes, I trust it was there--that was why I didn't watch the videos. Very easy to avoid clicking on a video, somewhat tougher to psychically detect spoiler posts in some thread or other.
So I like the guidelines, which are a nice, clear, simple rule. Don't try to guess what's a spoiler for someone else--just keep anything specific about the game, plot, characters, etc. to the spoiler section. There's no reason *not* to post there, if you've already played. (Which I have, at this point.)
#45
Guest_Akshara_*
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 04:47
Guest_Akshara_*
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Astorax wrote...
Hence all the discussion you wanted me to stop doing.
Heh, fair enough. It's not that I want to squelch discussion of the subject, that was just my frustration coming through; it's that I would prefer seeing less attention on those committing the spoilers and how best to deal with them, and more attention on ways of proactively protecting the community from their actions. As you have pointed out, there are few recourses for preventing new members from posting spoilers; yet there are things that can be done to mitigate their negative effects, with enough manpower and effort. From my experience here, it is subject spoilers that cause the most damage, as there is no way to avoid them beyond not visiting the forums at all.
#46
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 12:26
LordMacharius
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hey, can anyone enlighten on how to beter use and understand the battle tactic option in this game.
#47
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 02:02
SanitariumPr
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LordMacharius wrote...
hey, can anyone enlighten on how to beter use and understand the battle tactic option in this game.
You got a group:
Tank - takes the mobs
Dps - Kills the mobs
Healer - Keeps everyone alive
Make sure that in bigger battles your group is stopped and you move solo.
Tip's
-Corner pull
Let the mobs see you run around the corner to your group pull little or few and slaughter them.
-Carefull pull
Almost like corner pull but there is a line of sight to enemy - don't get too close and shoot them
so they come to you.
#48
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 05:12
DragonRageGT
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Astorax wrote...
Any gameplay focused posts that contain ANY information about the official campaign belong in this forum:
Dragon Age: Origins Official Campaign Forum (SPOILERS)
The link is correct but the title should read:
Dragon Age: Origins Gameplay Forum (SPOILERS)
+1 for OP too!
#49
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 05:28
Astorax
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Wups! So I did.
Thanks Rage
Thanks Rage
Modifié par Astorax, 11 décembre 2009 - 05:30 .
#50
Posté 11 décembre 2009 - 05:32
Sylvius the Mad
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I don't see how that's germaine to the discussion at all.Lacan2 wrote...
Then why are there spoilers on Dragon Age's website?
There are spoilers on the website, but you don't need to visit the website to get here. Visiting the NO SPOILERS forum can easily be done without ever seeing (or even having seen) the Dragon Age website. Most people boomark the forum. I generally navigate here from BioWare.com.
That there are NO SPOILERS ALLOWED here means exactly that. The DA website isn't here.
If I were a mod I'd be banning people left and right.
