446 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Makrys wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

If you fail to break the elder brain's illusion in Bioware's Neverwinter Nights 2: Hordes of the Underdark, the game acts like you've won...

Problem is, you get this message regardless of which choice you pick, so long as you pick a choice in the first place.

Its the same in NN as well. And if you didn't get the message at the end of control or synthesis, then it would be obvious something is up. People don't understand, THEY CAN'T POINT OUT THAT IT IS TRUE. They want YOU to figure it out, and connect the dots. So everyone who's asking "Where's the proof?", you're never going to get legimitate 'proof' because there is none. And you're not meant to know exactly how the ending happened until the EC. People forget... they wanted speculation! They wanted people having differeing opinions and disecting the game and its ending. 

So no you'll never have definitive proof of the IT, because you can't prove a theory. All you will ever have are suggestions, hints, or clues that can lead you to think that there is something deeper going on throughout the game.

I still have yet to hear someone explain the 'oily shadows' in Shepard's dreams, as well as the various Reaper noises, AND whispers. Because every single one of those has been described either in the codex, or previous lore of the universe, to be direct examples of attempts to indoctrinate someone. All 3 are related to indoctrination. So its just a coincidence they were in Shepard's dreams? Ok. But look who's grasping at straws now. In fact, there is A LOT in which the Anti-IT crowd are trying to simply toss out the window with 'bad writing' or 'coincidences' when the IT crowd is backing up their findings and opinions with facts from the lore. So while nothing remains proven, there are considerable events that can be defined and explained with the IT which simply cannot be without it.

But the "epilogue" for the endings is exaclty the same. The only significant difference between them is the breath scene, which is nothing more than an easter egg for those who played multiplayer or bought a datapad app.

And as for the writing quality of the Trilogy, it tanked in ME3. Just look at the Crucible Arc or what they did to Cerberus or Hackett. The intro was absolutely awful, even without the kid. Thessia was extremely contrived. Kai Leng, for god's sake! And let's not forget the abysmal treatment of your ME2 squaddies. So is bad writing really that big an assumption to make, even though it's been demonstrated throughout the game?

Modifié par Leonardo the Magnificent, 18 mai 2012 - 03:47 .

[Raiil]

Okay, having never beaten NN, can someone please say whether there is a 4th wall breaking 'You've Won!' screen similar to the DLC screen? Just so I know, thanks.

[Makrys]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

If you fail to break the elder brain's illusion in Bioware's Neverwinter Nights 2: Hordes of the Underdark, the game acts like you've won...

Problem is, you get this message regardless of which choice you pick, so long as you pick a choice in the first place.

Its the same in NN as well. And if you didn't get the message at the end of control or synthesis, then it would be obvious something is up. People don't understand, THEY CAN'T POINT OUT THAT IT IS TRUE. They want YOU to figure it out, and connect the dots. So everyone who's asking "Where's the proof?", you're never going to get legimitate 'proof' because there is none. And you're not meant to know exactly how the ending happened until the EC. People forget... they wanted speculation! They wanted people having differeing opinions and disecting the game and its ending. 

So no you'll never have definitive proof of the IT, because you can't prove a theory. All you will ever have are suggestions, hints, or clues that can lead you to think that there is something deeper going on throughout the game.

I still have yet to hear someone explain the 'oily shadows' in Shepard's dreams, as well as the various Reaper noises, AND whispers. Because every single one of those has been described either in the codex, or previous lore of the universe, to be direct examples of attempts to indoctrinate someone. All 3 are related to indoctrination. So its just a coincidence they were in Shepard's dreams? Ok. But look who's grasping at straws now. In fact, there is A LOT in which the Anti-IT crowd are trying to simply toss out the window with 'bad writing' or 'coincidences' when the IT crowd is backing up their findings and opinions with facts from the lore. So while nothing remains proven, there are considerable events that can be defined and explained with the IT which simply cannot be without it.

But the "epilogue" for the endings is exaclty the same. The only significant difference between them is the breath scene, which is nothing more than an easter egg for those who played multiplayer or bought a datapad app.

The epilogues are exactly the same because either way, no matter what choice you choose, Shepard is dreaming... And the epilogues are his interpretation in his mind of what hope is. All of what happens is what he is hoping but also rationally thinking will happen. It doesn't mean everything has to make sense, because in a dream, often times things do not. All we know, is that Bioware intended the 'dreamyness' of the ending. So take that as far as you will.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Valentia X wrote...

Okay, having never beaten NN, can someone please say whether there is a 4th wall breaking 'You've Won!' screen similar to the DLC screen? Just so I know, thanks.

I think the credits roll, making it seem as though the game ended.

[jtav]

You get epilogue screens and roll credits. Also, you are helpfully informed there are three chapters before you start. The Elder Brain fight occurs in the middle of chapter 2. It's not hard to figure out.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

jtav wrote...

You get epilogue screens and roll credits. Also, you are helpfully informed there are three chapters before you start. The Elder Brain fight occurs in the middle of chapter 2. It's not hard to figure out.

I really wish people would stop citing NWN2 as an example of Bioware doing a fake ending before. It's a completely different thing than what they'd have to do for the I.T.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Makrys wrote...
The epilogues are exactly the same because either way, no matter what choice you choose, Shepard is dreaming... And the epilogues are his interpretation in his mind of what hope is. All of what happens is what he is hoping but also rationally thinking will happen. It doesn't mean everything has to make sense, because in a dream, often times things do not. All we know, is that Bioware intended the 'dreamyness' of the ending. So take that as far as you will.

The ending cutscene represents hope?

Why would Shepard dream that the crucible backfires and purges all life on Earth. Not exactly hopeful.

[wryterra]

IsaacShep wrote...



He ended the Reaper threat in every ending. He didn't "fail" any test in a dream/hallucination. It's done, already happened. He wins in every ending = every ending happened. Sorry IT

Except that that dialogue appears before the ending. 

Wait what?

I sound insane, I know, but dismiss that dialogue then go to the galaxy map. What's waiting for you? The ending. 

[Makrys]

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...
The epilogues are exactly the same because either way, no matter what choice you choose, Shepard is dreaming... And the epilogues are his interpretation in his mind of what hope is. All of what happens is what he is hoping but also rationally thinking will happen. It doesn't mean everything has to make sense, because in a dream, often times things do not. All we know, is that Bioware intended the 'dreamyness' of the ending. So take that as far as you will.

The ending cutscene represents hope?

Why would Shepard dream that the crucible backfires and purges all life on Earth. Not exactly hopeful.

Like I said, all of it is both hope AND rational thinking. God, why do I have to explain things countless times? Part of the epilogue is a logical vision of what he thinks is happening. So, if you didn't spend very much time aquiring assets and getting a high enough EMS, no you won't be as hopeful, and your vision of the end will be much more grim. But no matter what, Shepard always dreams that his teammates make it out, because that matters to him the most. Some of the epilogue, is hope, some is rational thinking.  If Shepard did a craptastic job of uniting the galaxy, he probably wouldn't feel to good about how it all ends.

Its just an interpretation. I'm not saying that's exactly how it happens. No one knows. So you don't have to agree.

Modifié par Makrys, 18 mai 2012 - 03:59 .

[Elyiia]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Okay, having never beaten NN, can someone please say whether there is a 4th wall breaking 'You've Won!' screen similar to the DLC screen? Just so I know, thanks.

I think the credits roll, making it seem as though the game ended.

Mhm, what people don't seem to realise when they bring it up is there is a huge difference between the game acting as if you had beat it and the game flat out breaking the fourth wall to tell you that you beat it.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...
The epilogues are exactly the same because either way, no matter what choice you choose, Shepard is dreaming... And the epilogues are his interpretation in his mind of what hope is. All of what happens is what he is hoping but also rationally thinking will happen. It doesn't mean everything has to make sense, because in a dream, often times things do not. All we know, is that Bioware intended the 'dreamyness' of the ending. So take that as far as you will.

The ending cutscene represents hope?

Why would Shepard dream that the crucible backfires and purges all life on Earth. Not exactly hopeful.

Like I said, NOT ALL OF IT IS HOPEFUL. God, why do I have to explain things countless times? Part of the epilogue is a logical vision of what he thinks is happening. So, if you didn't spend very much time aquiring assets and getting a high enough EMS, no you won't be as hopeful, and your vision of the end will be much more grim. But no matter what, Shepard always dreams that his teammates make it out, because that matters to him the most. Some of the epilogue, is hope, some is rational thinking.  If Shepard did a craptastic job of uniting the galaxy, he probably wouldn't feel to good about how it all ends.

Execpt that his squadmates don't make it out in the worst endings. No one exits the Normandy in the worst ending.

[Makrys]

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...
The epilogues are exactly the same because either way, no matter what choice you choose, Shepard is dreaming... And the epilogues are his interpretation in his mind of what hope is. All of what happens is what he is hoping but also rationally thinking will happen. It doesn't mean everything has to make sense, because in a dream, often times things do not. All we know, is that Bioware intended the 'dreamyness' of the ending. So take that as far as you will.

The ending cutscene represents hope?

Why would Shepard dream that the crucible backfires and purges all life on Earth. Not exactly hopeful.

Like I said, NOT ALL OF IT IS HOPEFUL. God, why do I have to explain things countless times? Part of the epilogue is a logical vision of what he thinks is happening. So, if you didn't spend very much time aquiring assets and getting a high enough EMS, no you won't be as hopeful, and your vision of the end will be much more grim. But no matter what, Shepard always dreams that his teammates make it out, because that matters to him the most. Some of the epilogue, is hope, some is rational thinking.  If Shepard did a craptastic job of uniting the galaxy, he probably wouldn't feel to good about how it all ends.

Execpt that his squadmates don't make it out in the worst endings. No one exits the Normandy in the worst ending.

Well, I did not know that. And that further solidifies my point that he is thinking logically.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...
The epilogues are exactly the same because either way, no matter what choice you choose, Shepard is dreaming... And the epilogues are his interpretation in his mind of what hope is. All of what happens is what he is hoping but also rationally thinking will happen. It doesn't mean everything has to make sense, because in a dream, often times things do not. All we know, is that Bioware intended the 'dreamyness' of the ending. So take that as far as you will.

The ending cutscene represents hope?

Why would Shepard dream that the crucible backfires and purges all life on Earth. Not exactly hopeful.

Like I said, all of it is both hope AND rational thinking. God, why do I have to explain things countless times? Part of the epilogue is a logical vision of what he thinks is happening. So, if you didn't spend very much time aquiring assets and getting a high enough EMS, no you won't be as hopeful, and your vision of the end will be much more grim. But no matter what, Shepard always dreams that his teammates make it out, because that matters to him the most. Some of the epilogue, is hope, some is rational thinking.  If Shepard did a craptastic job of uniting the galaxy, he probably wouldn't feel to good about how it all ends.

And the stargazer? Did Shepard also imagine that to convince himself that everything turns out all right and that he becomes remembered as a hero?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...
The epilogues are exactly the same because either way, no matter what choice you choose, Shepard is dreaming... And the epilogues are his interpretation in his mind of what hope is. All of what happens is what he is hoping but also rationally thinking will happen. It doesn't mean everything has to make sense, because in a dream, often times things do not. All we know, is that Bioware intended the 'dreamyness' of the ending. So take that as far as you will.

The ending cutscene represents hope?

Why would Shepard dream that the crucible backfires and purges all life on Earth. Not exactly hopeful.

Like I said, NOT ALL OF IT IS HOPEFUL. God, why do I have to explain things countless times? Part of the epilogue is a logical vision of what he thinks is happening. So, if you didn't spend very much time aquiring assets and getting a high enough EMS, no you won't be as hopeful, and your vision of the end will be much more grim. But no matter what, Shepard always dreams that his teammates make it out, because that matters to him the most. Some of the epilogue, is hope, some is rational thinking.  If Shepard did a craptastic job of uniting the galaxy, he probably wouldn't feel to good about how it all ends.

Execpt that his squadmates don't make it out in the worst endings. No one exits the Normandy in the worst ending.

Well, I did not know that. And that further solidifies my point that he is thinking logically.

Oh? So it is a dream/vision inside Shepard's head that is filled with hope. Yet Earth is purged of life and everyone on the Normandy died?

[jtav]

And again, middle of game. You haven't even beaten the Valatrass. It is obviously and blatantly a ruse.

[Seboist]

The ITers remind me of those that continue to claim that Taxi Driver's ending was a "dream" even though Martin Sorsese flat out said it wasn't. In both cases these deluded fanboys only need to look in the mirror to see who's really dreaming.

[Makrys]

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...
The epilogues are exactly the same because either way, no matter what choice you choose, Shepard is dreaming... And the epilogues are his interpretation in his mind of what hope is. All of what happens is what he is hoping but also rationally thinking will happen. It doesn't mean everything has to make sense, because in a dream, often times things do not. All we know, is that Bioware intended the 'dreamyness' of the ending. So take that as far as you will.

The ending cutscene represents hope?

Why would Shepard dream that the crucible backfires and purges all life on Earth. Not exactly hopeful.

Like I said, NOT ALL OF IT IS HOPEFUL. God, why do I have to explain things countless times? Part of the epilogue is a logical vision of what he thinks is happening. So, if you didn't spend very much time aquiring assets and getting a high enough EMS, no you won't be as hopeful, and your vision of the end will be much more grim. But no matter what, Shepard always dreams that his teammates make it out, because that matters to him the most. Some of the epilogue, is hope, some is rational thinking.  If Shepard did a craptastic job of uniting the galaxy, he probably wouldn't feel to good about how it all ends.

Execpt that his squadmates don't make it out in the worst endings. No one exits the Normandy in the worst ending.

Well, I did not know that. And that further solidifies my point that he is thinking logically.

Oh? So it is a dream/vision inside Shepard's head that is filled with hope. Yet Earth is purged of life and everyone on the Normandy died?

If you had high EMS, it is hopeful. If you had low EMS its much less hopeful and more logical. Shep knows the work he's put into everything. If he couldn't do all that much, his vision of the end will be grim. If he accomplished much along the way, he is likely to hope and think the end would work out ok.

[Makrys]

Seboist wrote...

The ITers remind me of those that continue to claim that Taxi Driver's ending was a "dream" even though Martin Sorsese flat out said it wasn't. In both cases these deluded fanboys only need to look in the mirror to see who's really dreaming.

And this is what I mean. Anti-ITers being completely disrespectful to someones interpretation just because they don't match you're own. Grow up.

Modifié par Makrys, 18 mai 2012 - 04:07 .

[The Cheat]

LTKerr wrote...

Nimpe wrote...

Oh my god the last words of the game really are Downloadable Content. I thought that was a joke.

Shepard's last words are "I don't know". Guess Bioware were on fire the day they wrote both lines.

I see this being thrown around a lot and it's incorrect (well, at least if you have high enough EMS to have all three options available). Shepard's last statement in the game is "Maybe..." which he says after the Catalyst questions Shepard about his hesitation after Synthesis is explained (said hesitation being the "I...don't know" you're referring to).

Modifié par The Cheat, 18 mai 2012 - 04:07 .

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...
The epilogues are exactly the same because either way, no matter what choice you choose, Shepard is dreaming... And the epilogues are his interpretation in his mind of what hope is. All of what happens is what he is hoping but also rationally thinking will happen. It doesn't mean everything has to make sense, because in a dream, often times things do not. All we know, is that Bioware intended the 'dreamyness' of the ending. So take that as far as you will.

The ending cutscene represents hope?

Why would Shepard dream that the crucible backfires and purges all life on Earth. Not exactly hopeful.

Like I said, NOT ALL OF IT IS HOPEFUL. God, why do I have to explain things countless times? Part of the epilogue is a logical vision of what he thinks is happening. So, if you didn't spend very much time aquiring assets and getting a high enough EMS, no you won't be as hopeful, and your vision of the end will be much more grim. But no matter what, Shepard always dreams that his teammates make it out, because that matters to him the most. Some of the epilogue, is hope, some is rational thinking.  If Shepard did a craptastic job of uniting the galaxy, he probably wouldn't feel to good about how it all ends.

Execpt that his squadmates don't make it out in the worst endings. No one exits the Normandy in the worst ending.

Well, I did not know that. And that further solidifies my point that he is thinking logically.

Oh? So it is a dream/vision inside Shepard's head that is filled with hope. Yet Earth is purged of life and everyone on the Normandy died?

If you had high EMS, it is hopeful. If you had low EMS its much less hopeful and more logical. Shep knows the work he's put into everything. If he couldn't do all that much, his vision of the end will be grim. If he accomplished much along the way, he is likely to hope and think the end would work out ok.

And the stargazer scene? I'd really like an explanation for it that and its relation to IT.

[Makrys]

The Cheat wrote...

LTKerr wrote...

Nimpe wrote...

Oh my god the last words of the game really are Downloadable Content. I thought that was a joke.

Shepard's last words are "I don't know". Guess Bioware were on fire the day they wrote both lines.

I see this being thrown around a lot and it's incorrect (well, at least if you have high enough EMS to have all three options available). Shepard's last statement in the game is "Maybe..." which he says after the Catalyst questions Shepard about his hesitation after Synthesis is explained (said hesitation being the "I...don't know" you're referring to).

'Maybe' isn't really any better though. lol

[Elyiia]

Nimpe wrote...

Oh my god the last words of the game really are Downloadable Content. I thought that was a joke.

Technically, the last word of the game is OK.

:innocent:

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Makrys wrote...
If you had high EMS, it is hopeful. If you had low EMS its much less hopeful and more logical. Shep knows the work he's put into everything. If he couldn't do all that much, his vision of the end will be grim. If he accomplished much along the way, he is likely to hope and think the end would work out ok.

I doubt Shepard. No matter how poorly he preformed, thinks or believes that the best outcome is "Everyone on Earth dies due to the crucible".

Makrys wrote...
And this is what I mean. Anti-ITers being
completely disrespectful to someones interpretation just because they
don't match you're own. Grow up.

Seboist is just being "anti Mass effect" like always.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 18 mai 2012 - 04:10 .

[Makrys]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Makrys wrote...
The epilogues are exactly the same because either way, no matter what choice you choose, Shepard is dreaming... And the epilogues are his interpretation in his mind of what hope is. All of what happens is what he is hoping but also rationally thinking will happen. It doesn't mean everything has to make sense, because in a dream, often times things do not. All we know, is that Bioware intended the 'dreamyness' of the ending. So take that as far as you will.

The ending cutscene represents hope?

Why would Shepard dream that the crucible backfires and purges all life on Earth. Not exactly hopeful.

Like I said, NOT ALL OF IT IS HOPEFUL. God, why do I have to explain things countless times? Part of the epilogue is a logical vision of what he thinks is happening. So, if you didn't spend very much time aquiring assets and getting a high enough EMS, no you won't be as hopeful, and your vision of the end will be much more grim. But no matter what, Shepard always dreams that his teammates make it out, because that matters to him the most. Some of the epilogue, is hope, some is rational thinking.  If Shepard did a craptastic job of uniting the galaxy, he probably wouldn't feel to good about how it all ends.

Execpt that his squadmates don't make it out in the worst endings. No one exits the Normandy in the worst ending.

Well, I did not know that. And that further solidifies my point that he is thinking logically.

Oh? So it is a dream/vision inside Shepard's head that is filled with hope. Yet Earth is purged of life and everyone on the Normandy died?

If you had high EMS, it is hopeful. If you had low EMS its much less hopeful and more logical. Shep knows the work he's put into everything. If he couldn't do all that much, his vision of the end will be grim. If he accomplished much along the way, he is likely to hope and think the end would work out ok.

And the stargazer scene? I'd really like an explanation for it that and its relation to IT.

Why? So you can continue to bash my interpretation of the ending? I see what you're doing. I won't waste time laying out my opinions if you have nothing better to do than to disrepect them.

I don't disrespect or bash yours. You're free to believe what you want. But somehow its like you find ITists offensive. How dare someone interpret the ending differently than you! Oh, I'm sorry. Get over it. People have opinions. Its life. At this point, no one knows anything anyway.

Modifié par Makrys, 18 mai 2012 - 04:11 .

[Seboist]

Makrys wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The ITers remind me of those that continue to claim that Taxi Driver's ending was a "dream" even though Martin Sorsese flat out said it wasn't. In both cases these deluded fanboys only need to look in the mirror to see who's really dreaming.

And this is what I mean. Anti-ITers being completely disrespectful to someones interpretation just because they don't match you're own. Grow up.

My "interpretation" is "crap writers + crap story = crap ending". An extreme in thought no doubt.

If you ITers stopped for one minute to think about what you're proposing you'd realize how utterly moronic and insane your ****** poor "theory" is. The same writers who turned Cerberus into a galactic sith empire and have Alliance officials act like blubbering morons groveling at the feet of the player would come up with something so sophisticated and subtle?

Get the **** out of here with that bull****.