238 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

There would be no possible way to reunite. With Destroy, the Mass Relays are gone forever. At least with Control and Synthesis you can potentially rebuild them.

Why "gone forever?" The Protheans figured it out, so can we.

[estebanus]

IT or not, I will always pick destroy. If one thinks about the implications of control and synthesis, destroy always seems like the best option to me. Largely because that is the only ending where Shepard does not compromise his/her personality or goal since ME1.

Control is morally abundant, and synthesis, in addition to making no sense, is an abomination on nature itself.

[PsyrenY]

estebanus wrote...

Control is morally abundant

wut

[Raiil]

Optimystic_X wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Control is morally abundant

wut

lol.


Someone has yet to justify how total genocide is better than controlling the enemy.

[The Night Mammoth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

There would be no possible way to reunite. With Destroy, the Mass Relays are gone forever. At least with Control and Synthesis you can potentially rebuild them.

Why "gone forever?" The Protheans figured it out, so can we.

The Protheans were in a slightly better situation at that point. 

[estebanus]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

There would be no possible way to reunite. With Destroy, the Mass Relays are gone forever. At least with Control and Synthesis you can potentially rebuild them.

Ugh... This reminds me of the whole ending in the first place. Full of so many plot holes and loopholes and God knows what other holes.

According to Patrik Weekes, it only takes 40 years to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other with standard FTL, so I wouldn't worry about never seeing them again. Also, all the dead Reapers are laying on Earth in the destroy ending, so who is to say that one can't research their technology, and modify FTL? Maybe we can even learn how to build mass relays from their corpses!

[PsyrenY]

Valentia X wrote...

Someone has yet to justify how total genocide is better than controlling the enemy.

If it can be done, and done for a long enough period of time to rebuild the galaxy, followed by ordering the Reapers to their destruction (or otherwise solving them permanently) - then yes, Control is the best option.

But given the Catalyst's doubtful tone, Control is far too risky a gamble for my Shepard as presented. EC will hopefully make it more palatable.

[Barquiel]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

There would be no possible way to reunite. With Destroy, the Mass Relays are gone forever. At least with Control and Synthesis you can potentially rebuild them.

Why "gone forever?" The Protheans figured it out, so can we.

The Protheans were in a slightly better situation at that point. 

Aethyta implies that the asari have the capability (or at the very least, the foundations) to make their own mass relays.

[Makrys]

Valentia X wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Control is morally abundant

wut

lol.


Someone has yet to justify how total genocide is better than controlling the enemy.

You CAN'T CONTROL THE REAPERS. There are in game code files that label the Destroy option as 'destroys the Reapers', the synthesis option as 'combine machine and man', and the control option as 'become a Reaper'. 

So, if you think you can control them, you've believed the same lie TIM did. And synthesis is nothing more than what Saren preached. Destroy is the only way to affectively accomplished what you set out to do from the beginning. So what if the geth die? Or even EDI? You're willing to keep the Reapers around if you can save some friendly synthetics? So basically for a few synthetic friends, you're willing to let the cycle continue? Ok.

[Apocaleepse360]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

There would be no possible way to reunite. With Destroy, the Mass Relays are gone forever. At least with Control and Synthesis you can potentially rebuild them.

Why "gone forever?" The Protheans figured it out, so can we.

The Protheans used what they researched based on the existing Mass Relays to build their own. Those Mass Relays are now destroyed. To build one from scratch would probably take a VERY long time, if such a thing was even possible without the Reapers' knowledge.

[The Night Mammoth]

Barquiel wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

There would be no possible way to reunite. With Destroy, the Mass Relays are gone forever. At least with Control and Synthesis you can potentially rebuild them.

Why "gone forever?" The Protheans figured it out, so can we.

The Protheans were in a slightly better situation at that point. 

Aethyta implies that the asari have the capability (or at the very least, the foundations) to make their own mass relays.

Any species has the capability. The just have to figure it out first, like the Protheans. She says the Matriarchs should start getting their daughters moving earlier to basically solve these problems. 

[PsyrenY]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

The Protheans were in a slightly better situation at that point. 

This is difficult to quantify. For the Protheans, replicating Relays was a side-project - something they were doing more out of scientific curiosity than necessity. They'd already conquered the cosmos using the existing relays, so building more would only be useful to explorers, or MUCH further down the line when the resources of known space would be wearing a little thin, rather like our own current space program which has to fight for every dollar of support it gets.

But for our cycle, restoring the relays would be priority #1 of every single race left alive - Salarian, Quarian, Human, every tech-savvy member of every race would be thrown at the problem. Only food and water would take precedence. So it would be a completely different dynamic.

[estebanus]

Optimystic_X wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Control is morally abundant

wut

The reason why it's morally abundant is because you literally become your enemy, and you embrace your own enemies' philosophy (I'm talking about the Illusive man, here). He was clearly indoctrinated, and he wanted to control the reapers. Shepard constantly says to him that you can't control the reapers. So by choosing control, Shepard becomes the ultimate hypocrite. Not only that, but Vendetta states that each cycle has its own form of Cerberus. In every case, they want to control the reapers, and in each case, they're indoctrinated.

By coosing that what TIM wanted, you embrace your worst enemy's morals.

[Apocaleepse360]

estebanus wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

There would be no possible way to reunite. With Destroy, the Mass Relays are gone forever. At least with Control and Synthesis you can potentially rebuild them.

Ugh... This reminds me of the whole ending in the first place. Full of so many plot holes and loopholes and God knows what other holes.

According to Patrik Weekes, it only takes 40 years to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other with standard FTL, so I wouldn't worry about never seeing them again. Also, all the dead Reapers are laying on Earth in the destroy ending, so who is to say that one can't research their technology, and modify FTL? Maybe we can even learn how to build mass relays from their corpses!

40 years is time that the Quarians and Turians do not have, given the fact that they cannot eat the food that's on Earth. And by picking Destroy, you really are utterly destroying the Reapers. There would be nothing left to salvage from them, aside from a ton of scrap metal. Their code is destroyed, everything that made the Reapers, the Reapers, is gone.

The main problem with Destroy is that nothing is set in concrete. It's all theory. At the end of a war like that, I personally would be in no mood to speculate and theorize. I'd only want solid facts, otherwise we could potentially be walking into another disaster.

Modifié par Apocaleepse360, 18 mai 2012 - 03:58 .

[PsyrenY]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

The Protheans used what they researched based on the existing Mass Relays to build their own. Those Mass Relays are now destroyed. To build one from scratch would probably take a VERY long time, if such a thing was even possible without the Reapers' knowledge.

There are still pieces of them left (you see them flying apart in Destroy and Synthesis.) The codex tells us that disassembling a Relay was previously impossible, and destroying one was also impossible until Arrival. So while there may not be intact Relays to study, there are still pieces to analyze and possibly arrive at the same conclusions.

And again, every scientific mind in the galaxy would be put on the task; thanks to the Crucible, all of them are in the same system.

estebanus wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Control is morally abundant

wut

The reason why it's morally abundant is because you literally become your enemy, and you embrace your own enemies' philosophy (I'm talking about the Illusive man, here). He was clearly indoctrinated, and he wanted to control the reapers. Shepard constantly says to him that you can't control the reapers. So by choosing control, Shepard becomes the ultimate hypocrite. Not only that, but Vendetta states that each cycle has its own form of Cerberus. In every case, they want to control the reapers, and in each case, they're indoctrinated.

By coosing that what TIM wanted, you embrace your worst enemy's morals.

Do you mean repugnant? Or maybe abhorrent? I don't know what you're trying to say with "abundant."

Abundant just means plentiful.

[estebanus]

Valentia X wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Control is morally abundant

wut

lol.


Someone has yet to justify how total genocide is better than controlling the enemy.

Why is destroying the collector base better than controlling it? Because it is not unethical.

Destroying the reapers solves the problem of them forever. In that case, EDI and the geth are a small sacrifice. In both other endings, there is no garantee that the reapers will never be a problem again, except the word of an AI that is the leader of the enemy. Do you trust your enemy? In that case, you should pick synthesis and control, instead of destroy.

I don't believe that destroy kills all the Gth and EDI, because the only evidence for this are the words of an AI that has been conrolling an enemy responsible for the largest mass murders in the entire galaxy.

[Raiil]

Makrys wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Control is morally abundant

wut

lol.


Someone has yet to justify how total genocide is better than controlling the enemy.

You CAN'T CONTROL THE REAPERS. There are in game code files that label the Destroy option as 'destroys the Reapers', the synthesis option as 'combine machine and man', and the control option as 'become a Reaper'. 

So, if you think you can control them, you've believed the same lie TIM did. And synthesis is nothing more than what Saren preached. Destroy is the only way to affectively accomplished what you set out to do from the beginning. So what if the geth die? Or even EDI? You're willing to keep the Reapers around if you can save some friendly synthetics? So basically for a few synthetic friends, you're willing to let the cycle continue? Ok.

'The created will always rebel against the creator. So we kill off species to ensure it never happens.'

'The Reapers will always kill other species. So we kill off a species to ensure it never happens.'

A few friendly synthetics? It's literal and cultural genocide. We were given other options to end the Reaper threat. Destroy entails, at the very least, wiping every individual Geth out of existence. Tell me how that's morally justifiable. 


Is it okay to wipe out Canada because China is beating out ass in a war?
Is it okay to nuke San Francisco with living residents trapped inside to stop an advancing army?
Is it okay to destroy the West Coast in order to prevent the US being flooded by an insanely big tsunami?

[estebanus]

Optimystic_X wrote...

[

estebanus wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Control is morally abundant

wut

The reason why it's morally abundant is because you literally become your enemy, and you embrace your own enemies' philosophy (I'm talking about the Illusive man, here). He was clearly indoctrinated, and he wanted to control the reapers. Shepard constantly says to him that you can't control the reapers. So by choosing control, Shepard becomes the ultimate hypocrite. Not only that, but Vendetta states that each cycle has its own form of Cerberus. In every case, they want to control the reapers, and in each case, they're indoctrinated.

By coosing that what TIM wanted, you embrace your worst enemy's morals.

Do you mean repugnant? Or maybe abhorrent? I don't know what you're trying to say with "abundant."

Abundant just means plentiful.

Sorry, I meant abhorrent, my mistake.

[estebanus]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

There would be no possible way to reunite. With Destroy, the Mass Relays are gone forever. At least with Control and Synthesis you can potentially rebuild them.

Ugh... This reminds me of the whole ending in the first place. Full of so many plot holes and loopholes and God knows what other holes.

According to Patrik Weekes, it only takes 40 years to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other with standard FTL, so I wouldn't worry about never seeing them again. Also, all the dead Reapers are laying on Earth in the destroy ending, so who is to say that one can't research their technology, and modify FTL? Maybe we can even learn how to build mass relays from their corpses!

40 years is time that the Quarians and Turians do not have, given the fact that they cannot eat the food that's on Earth. And by picking Destroy, you really are utterly destroying the Reapers. There would be nothing left to salvage from them, aside from a ton of scrap metal. Their code is destroyed, everything that made the Reapers, the Reapers, is gone.

The quarians had their liveships with them, remember? They grow food on their liveships, which means that they could very well supply both themselves and the Turians with food.

[Artemillion]

I, too, can't kill Geth and EDI. EDI saved my live more than once. Killing her would be treason.

[Apocaleepse360]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

The Protheans used what they researched based on the existing Mass Relays to build their own. Those Mass Relays are now destroyed. To build one from scratch would probably take a VERY long time, if such a thing was even possible without the Reapers' knowledge.

There are still pieces of them left (you see them flying apart in Destroy and Synthesis.) The codex tells us that disassembling a Relay was previously impossible, and destroying one was also impossible until Arrival. So while there may not be intact Relays to study, there are still pieces to analyze and possibly arrive at the same conclusions.

And again, every scientific mind in the galaxy would be put on the task; thanks to the Crucible, all of them are in the same system.

Yeah, but good luck with getting some, specifically the Quarians and Turians, to survive in that same system. They cannot eat Earth's food, as it would kill them.

And as I've said before, with Destroy, you're destroying the Reaper code. You're frying their "organs", so to speak. The Relays were built from their technology, Sovereign even said it itself. There is literally nothing left to salvage from those husks, save for again, as I've said before, a ton of scrap metal. So unless you're planning to build a massive space path into each species' systems, you'd be wasting your time.

[Apocaleepse360]

estebanus wrote...

The quarians had their liveships with them, remember? They grow food on their liveships, which means that they could very well supply both themselves and the Turians with food.

The Quarians only brought their military ships with them. It'd be quite stupid to bring their liveships into a fight against the Reapers. Then again, the ME3 ending in general was quite stupid in it's own right, so they could have brought their liveships into the fight lol.

Modifié par Apocaleepse360, 18 mai 2012 - 04:08 .

[SetecAstronomy]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

The Protheans used what they researched based on the existing Mass Relays to build their own. Those Mass Relays are now destroyed. To build one from scratch would probably take a VERY long time, if such a thing was even possible without the Reapers' knowledge.

There are still pieces of them left (you see them flying apart in Destroy and Synthesis.) The codex tells us that disassembling a Relay was previously impossible, and destroying one was also impossible until Arrival. So while there may not be intact Relays to study, there are still pieces to analyze and possibly arrive at the same conclusions.

And again, every scientific mind in the galaxy would be put on the task; thanks to the Crucible, all of them are in the same system.

Yeah, but good luck with getting some, specifically the Quarians and Turians, to survive in that same system. They cannot eat Earth's food, as it would kill them.

And as I've said before, with Destroy, you're destroying the Reaper code. You're frying their "organs", so to speak. The Relays were built from their technology, Sovereign even said it itself. There is literally nothing left to salvage from those husks, save for again, as I've said before, a ton of scrap metal. So unless you're planning to build a massive space path into each species' systems, you'd be wasting your time.

Good thing the Quarians have those ships that have allowed them to grow their own food for the last three centuries..

[The Night Mammoth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

The Protheans were in a slightly better situation at that point. 

This is difficult to quantify. For the Protheans, replicating Relays was a side-project - something they were doing more out of scientific curiosity than necessity. They'd already conquered the cosmos using the existing relays, so building more would only be useful to explorers, or MUCH further down the line when the resources of known space would be wearing a little thin, rather like our own current space program which has to fight for every dollar of support it gets.

But for our cycle, restoring the relays would be priority #1 of every single race left alive - Salarian, Quarian, Human, every tech-savvy member of every race would be thrown at the problem. Only food and water would take precedence. So it would be a completely different dynamic.

Well the Protheans had -

 - Plenty of resources. Virtually unlimited. Obviously, this cycle could scavenge from various places, but won't be quite as easy to obtain exactly what they need with extreme ease. The Relays contain enough potential energy to create a supernova, so I don't know where Hackett's finding all of that. 
 - Plenty of time. Whilst the Protheans could take their time and iron out every little detail, the current cycle is going to be pushed for it to actually make it matter. 
 - Intact Relays to study. Destroyed components aren't going to be as good as the real thing. 
 - A technology level higher than the current cycle in general. If they could reverse engineer the Relays they were very close to being on par with the Reapers.
 - A robust infrastructure. That includes food, water, shelter, power, all the things people are going to prioritize above bulding these massive machines again. 
 - Their top scientists working on it, with plenty of support staff. True, the current cycle has a lot of available expertise, but how mant actually came to Earth and how many survived? Impossible to say. 

This wasn't a casual science project for the Protheans. Ilos was kept top secret, it was just a myth to everyone else, and their government and the facility went to pretty extreme lengths to keep it that way. Figuring out the Relays would unlock the secrets to the very foundations their galactic civilization was built on, allow them to control everyone and everything.