238 réponses à ce sujet

[feliciano2040]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Everyone was willing to die, even the Geth. More specifically, eveyone was willing to die rather than submit to the Reaper's plans. If the Geth must die, so be it, they were prepared for it. I take at least some solace in that.

They weren't willing to let their entire population be exterminated, the Geth prepared for NONE of this.

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

I still don't think the choice of mass murder, or the implication that it could be a valid solution to any problem, for the betterment of everyone else, is something BioWare should be proud of.

*facepalm*

A statement on fiction doesn't mean it's supported by the author.

The point of all the choices at the end of the game, including Destroy, is that nothing is free, nothing comes without a price.

[Taboo]

feliciano2040 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Everyone was willing to die, even the Geth. More specifically, eveyone was willing to die rather than submit to the Reaper's plans. If the Geth must die, so be it, they were prepared for it. I take at least some solace in that.

They weren't willing to let their entire population be exterminated, the Geth prepared for NONE of this.

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

I still don't think the choice of mass murder, or the implication that it could be a valid solution to any problem, for the betterment of everyone else, is something BioWare should be proud of.

*facepalm*

A statement on fiction doesn't mean it's supported by the author.

The point of all the choices at the end of the game, including Destroy, is that nothing is free, nothing comes without a price.

People weren't prepared to have their DNA rewritten either.

Think on it.

[ShepnTali]

I think we already knew nothing comes without a price considering all the carnage the reapers have caused. The point doesn't need to be driven home in a contrived manner.

[Dendio1]

Synthesis. Just submit the universe to the reapers. It wont hurt a bit

[Taboo]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Is submission not preferable to extinction?

Assume the position slave.

[Someone With Mass]

Considering that Synthesis doesn't improve the situation one bit, I'd rather take Control.

Unless Destroy spares the geth, EDI and those folks with cybernetic implants. In that case, I'll wipe the lobotomized Starchild retard from the face of the galaxy. For the greater good.

[InHarmsWay]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Is submission not preferable to extinction?

It is better to die on my feet than live on my knees.

[TudorWolf]

It would give me pause, certainly.

If EDI dies though, that would still be a pretty strong deterrent, not gonna lie

[InHarmsWay]

Optimystic_X wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

Both the geth and EDI said very speciically that they would rather die than allow the reapers to continue to exist.

No, they said they would rather die than let the Reapers win. Not at all the same thing.

Which they do in synthesis and control.

[Forst1999]

Makrys wrote...

I don't understand the logic behind picking control or synthesis. Both are what TIM and Saren wanted... and um... both admitted they were wrong. Destroy is what you've been setting out to do from the get go. So, destroy all the way no matter what. Shepard did not die, so I would assume the geth did not either, also EDI did not die. So, the StarBrat was lying. It seems clear that the destroy option ONLY destroys the Reapers. And this is without considering the IT.

My Shepard set out to save the people of the galaxy from the Reapers. Destroying them would be the preferred method, but not at the price of betraying and killing an ally. And it is made clear that the destruction ending destroys the Geth. Shepard survives, yes, but the Catalyst never actually said Shep would die. Probably  "Even you are partially synthtic" was not meant as a warning that the option would kill Shep, but rather as a reminder that Shep and synthetic live are not all that different.
As for the TIM=Control & Saren=Synthesis arguement: TIM wasn't wrong because controling the Reapers itself is a bad idea, but because indoctrinated as he was he wasn't able to do it and actively sabotaged everyone else. A Shep that doesn't stubbornly pick every paragon answer might have never objected to the idea.
And Synthesis is hardly what Saren wanted. Saren tried to escape annihilation through servitude. Synthesis is neither servitude to the Reapers nor transforming everyone into Husks as some suggest. The people of the galaxy are altered, but they keep their free will, their emotions and are no slaves of the Reapers. I don't say Synthesis makes any sense, but it's a stretch to say this is what Saren wanted.
If we look at the Destruction ending in a similar way, one could say it proves the catalyst right. If organics throw synthetics away just because it's convenient, synthetics maybe should act the same way. Like "Synthesis=Saren", it's a stretch. Anyway, "solution A is wrong because person X suggested it"-arguments are pointless. I pick the solution according to my respective Shepard's personality. My canon Shep (the guy with my morals, more or less) would never insidiously kill off an ally, while my renegade might see the Geth (and everyone else) just as chess pieces that might be sacrificed. But with none of me Shepards the decision would depend on a possible reunion with the LI.

[Someone With Mass]

InHarmsWay wrote...

It is better to die on my feet than live on my knees.

I enjoy the sight of humans on their knees.

[Skull Bearer]

I'm not sure about the moral problem with Control, the Reapers have pretty much put themselves outside any moral considerations by their actions, past and present. I would choose Control partially because it allows the Geth to live, and partially because the Mass Relays seem less broken definitely not Nova in that ending.

However, the problem with Control is that it's the most ambiguous ending. Synthesis is fairly clear, if repellent, and Destroy is clearer still. With Control, if you could see the Reapers leaving Earth and flying straight into the nearest star, it would be fine. Instead, they just leave. Where do they go? Is the cycle just reset so they'll come back? If not, how long are they going to stay away? It would be horribly ironic if Shepard made the sacrifice only for the Reapers to turn around and come back three weeks later.

And even if Shepard can maintain his hold on the Reapers minds forever (how s/he's do it, being dead, is a mystery) I'm... not sure if even the Reapers deserve to be kept under eternal mind control.

So yeah, seeing them fly straight into a star would make for a far better ending.

[PsyrenY]

InHarmsWay wrote...

Which they do in synthesis and control.

Except, you know, they don't.

[Someone With Mass]

Optimystic_X wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

Which they do in synthesis and control.

Except, you know, they don't.

You don't really beat the Reapers in the Synthesis ending, though. They decided to leave on their own.

Plus, it's potentially easier for them to harvest the new beings of the galaxy, now that they're all the same thing. For what reason, you may ask? Any reason that's better than the "Yo dawg" logic the Starchild put in play.

[Reorte]

Destroy, even if it costs the geth and EDI, is the only one that is absolutely guarenteed to end the Reaper threat. Control might do but it's a risk and Synthesis does absolutely nothing to change the situation (it only works if you assume that the Reapers' behaviour is 100% controlled by a completely inflexible set of rules).

[Bill Casey]

Forst1999 wrote...

And Synthesis is hardly what Saren wanted.

Catalyst: The chain reaction will combine organic and synthetic life into a new framework. A new... DNA.
Saren: The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither.

Catalyst: Synthesis is the final evolution of life.
Saren: I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny.

Leaked Script: Become one with the Reapers
Saren: Join Sovereign, and experience a true rebirth.

Catalyst: But we need eachother to make it happen.
Saren: But if we work with the Reapers, if we make ourselves useful. Think of how many lives could be spared.

[feliciano2040]

Taboo-XX wrote...

People weren't prepared to have their DNA rewritten either.

Think on it.

Would you rather have your DNA rewritten without any consequence to your personality and metal health ?

Or would you rather die ?

[xsdob]

Bill Casey wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

And Synthesis is hardly what Saren wanted.

Catalyst: The chain reaction will combine organic and synthetic life into a new framework. A new... DNA.
Saren: The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither.

Catalyst: Synthesis is the final evolution of life.
Saren: I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny.

Leaked Script: Become one with the Reapers
Saren: Join Sovereign, and experience a true rebirth.

Catalyst: But we need eachother to make it happen.
Saren: But if we work with the Reapers, if we make ourselves useful. Think of how many lives could be spared.

He called for synthetics dominating and using organics as resources, not an equal exchange of the 2.

Also the reapers don't seem to control anyone whose been synthesised, so your point about it being what saren wanted kinda falls flat on it's face.

And if your going to pull the old "They come back 10 minutes later," line than I'm making my own for destroy. Shepard shooting the tubes was little more than him damaging the cooling system of the citadel and the pressurized air exploding outword. The reapers got knocked unconscious for 5 minutes and than all got back up and kept destroying everything.

the end.

[Wulfram]

I don't think Shepard's chances of survival play much of a role. The stakes are too high, and Shepard has repeatedly shown their willingness to give her life for the greater good since she decided to become a soldier.

Currently, my preference is for Control, though I've got a Destroy Shep too. Clarification of Control may change my mind.

Modifié par Wulfram, 18 mai 2012 - 08:55 .

[Taboo]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

People weren't prepared to have their DNA rewritten either.

Think on it.

Would you rather have your DNA rewritten without any consequence to your personality and metal health ?

Or would you rather die ?

I would never force it on people against their will. They have a right to choose.

As awful as it sounds I feel a great number of people would rather choose Destroy and sacrifice thousands against their rather than change the entirety of organic life against their will based upon a hypothetical situation presented by the Catalyst.

You can find the basis against a singularity in the new thread I created about ethics.

[Skyhawk02]

Makrys wrote...

I don't understand the logic behind picking control or synthesis. Both are what TIM and Saren wanted... and um... both admitted they were wrong. Destroy is what you've been setting out to do from the get go. So, destroy all the way no matter what. Shepard did not die, so I would assume the geth did not either, also EDI did not die. So, the StarBrat was lying. It seems clear that the destroy option ONLY destroys the Reapers. And this is without considering the IT.

They only admit they were wrong if you play the game that way, in my playthrough neither of them ever admitted to being wrong and by the end of it my Shepard decided that Saren was right and picked Synthesis.  Goals can change when new information is recieved.

[PsyrenY]

Someone With Mass wrote...

You don't really beat the Reapers in the Synthesis ending, though. They decided to leave on their own.

"Beating them" is a childish sentiment. What I set out to do was end the war on our terms, which I did.

Taboo-XX wrote...

I would never force it on people against their will. They have a right to choose.

Well I'm sorry, but I don't have the time or ability to poll the galaxy on this. If it sucks, they can figure out how to fix it after the war is over.

Taboo-XX wrote...
As awful as it sounds I feel a great number of people would rather choose Destroy and sacrifice thousands against their rather than change the entirety of organic life against their will based upon a hypothetical situation presented by the Catalyst.

As presented, I don't blame you for thinking that. The DNA stuff is pretty nonsensical taken literally.

But the leaked-script version of Synthesis is much more appealing. "We would become a little more like organics, and your people would become a little more like us." "So we would just go on living, together?" "Yes" I can't think of anyone, who doesn't already hate the Geth/synthetics, objecting to that.