43 réponses à ce sujet

[borelocin]

... to stop other people from using it because I can't stop myself" threads.

Oh wait, yes I do. 

The game is neither too easy nor too hard for ALL players. Some people breeze through it on Nightmare and some people have trouble on Casual.

The range of available tactics seems to me to be designed to accomodate different levels of  "skill" for lack of a better word.

If you are a seasoned MMO raider this game is fairly straightforward - you already understand target priority, choke points, pulling, hate management, crowd control etc.

If you are not, you might struggle quite a bit and have to resort to "cheap" tactics - Kiting, CoC spam, Taunt+Bubble etc to make it through.

Using tools designed to help players with lower skill levels will of course make the game simpler for you if you are more "skilled" - perhaps even too simple. So don't

If everything is nerfed to the point where only hardcore players can handle it without wetting their pants, then the game doesn't sell and Bioware have no money with which to dream up more goodies for us to play with.

[Khevar]

That's a little harsh, don't you think?
While I don't agree with all the points some of the players are complaining about, the fact remains that

• The game isn't fun for them
• There are probably ways to implement the requested features without making the game too hard for the other players

I don't see any problem in people expressing their desires about what direction they'd like the game to go.

Modifié par jeffkretz, 10 décembre 2009 - 01:06 .

[Faerell Gustani]

Actually, you have the complaint backwards.

"Bioware should nerf it so that I can use it and have a challenge, and I don't have to ignore the tactic cause it's too 'cheap' anymore."

[Duck and Cover]

I don't expect forcefield to get nerfed, but you never know. Either way this isn't an mmo, so don't expect much. They have better things to do than dick around with spell balance when there are more important issues to address. Just accept some spells are more useful than others. I don't expect much more other than adjusting the cooldown and/or spell cost.



As I'm not sure the threat mechanic is an easy fix. I don't exactly know how threat works in this game, but it seems to be complicated.

[hexaligned]

That's why there are difficulty levels, if I can faceroll my way through the hardest difficulty there is something seriously wrong with the combat mechanics itself. Believe it or not, some of us like to be challenged, and no "play a naked solo game without using any spells or items" is not an acceptable solution.

[LynxAQ]

Nightmare difficulty is there for a reason. Time for them to use it as such. I am one of those "verteran raiders" as you put it and on my first play through in this game I played on hard, cause it seemed like the proper way the game should be played. Normal had that silly half damage from friendly fire thing.



But halfway through the game I remember thinking to myself that this was a little easy... I didnt realise at that time the difficulty could be changed mid game, as most games that ask you what difficulty you want on the character creation screen can't normally be changed mid game. So I just continued and finished the game. Every playthrough after that has been on nightmare and still alot of fights are too easy and I dont use any cheese tactics. I only ever have 1 mage max in my group, I don't use FF, only allow myself 1 CoC use per fight (so I have to use it tactically if I have the spell) etc along with a load of silly limitations I put on myself just to get some resemblance of a challenge.



This is when I think to myself, surely I shouldnt have to do that in order to get a challenge when playing on nightmare difficulty.



Its not about a spell being over used so it should get nerfed, its about me being able to use every spell given in the game but still have a challenge. ATM that is not possible.

[Taritu]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Actually, you have the complaint backwards.
"Bioware should nerf it so that I can use it and have a challenge, and I don't have to ignore the tactic cause it's too 'cheap' anymore."

Agreed. I'd like to be able to use forcefield and cone of cold without feeling cheap.  Why do I have to ignore major spells because some people can't play the game without unbalanced crap?

Modifié par Taritu, 10 décembre 2009 - 02:10 .

[Kanner]

Actually, all it means is that there is no community 'glory' to be had from say, soloing nightmare difficulty. That leads to less overall interest, less interaction, and less fun for basicially everyone.



'Story' players and RPGers, correct me if I'm wrong, don't tend to rely on silly exploits anyway (the vast majority probably don't even read any kind of online content or find out about them). So all you're left with is a difficulty setting that is supposed to be challenging' being utterly trivialised by one or two abilities.



I can't see how that helps anyone. Why even have difficulty settings at all if you're then going to turn around and allow tactics that trivialise any setting?

[Exodus]

Kanner you hit it on the head.



That's why I think these 'omg i solo'd this game on the hardest difficulty, i am AWESOME' is like a personal ad for my dick is too small and I'm just looking for approval. We ALL know the ai could use a lot of work but this game isn't about being the best rpg combat simulator. People who say this is op or this is broken are playing this game for the wrong reasons.

[Surberus]

You dont nerf things to make the game generally more difficult. That's like forcing everyone to swim in 10ft of water so Yao Ming can have a place where he doesnt touch the bottom, without realizing the midgets might want a spot to get a rest once in a while.

If Yao wants to go swim in the ocean, great for him, but you shouldnt force everyone to have to play with a harder standard. That leads to fewer players = fewer sales = smaller fanbase = less money = less potential for future releases related to that IP

Instead, you start everyone out in 3ft of water, with the option for a life jacket. Then you point to a spot in the pool where you cant see the bottom and you tell people they're welcome to go out there, and if they want, they can take off the life jacket too.

Modifié par Surberus, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:34 .

[borelocin]

Exodus wrote...

Kanner you hit it on the head.

That's why I think these 'omg i solo'd this game on the hardest difficulty, i am AWESOME' is like a personal ad for my dick is too small and I'm just looking for approval. We ALL know the ai could use a lot of work but this game isn't about being the best rpg combat simulator. People who say this is op or this is broken are playing this game for the wrong reasons.

You made me spit coffee out of my nose with that one

[Faerell Gustani]

Surberus wrote...

You dont nerf things to make the game generally more difficult. That's like forcing everyone to swim in 10ft of water so Yao Ming can have a place where he doesnt touch the bottom, without realizing the midgets might want a spot to get a rest once in a while.

If Yao wants to go swim in the ocean, great for him, but you shouldnt force everyone to have to play with a harder standard. That leads to fewer players = fewer sales = smaller fanbase = less money = less potential for future releases related to that IP

Instead, you start everyone out in 3ft of water, with the option for a life jacket. Then you point to a spot in the pool where you cant see the bottom and you tell people they're welcome to go out there, and if they want, they can take off the life jacket too.

There's and easy mode which is like the 1 ft deep kiddy pool.
The main problem is that Bioware didn't diversify the difficulties enough.  The perma-lockdown from CoC was a bit too much though.  I don't think spamming 1 ability over and over again is a "good gameplay" tactic and reeks more of cheese.
The other nerfs I don't care too much for.  FF should have just had some aggro suppression, like the mobs attack the FFed target once or twice then they realize something is wrong and they go elsewhere.
CP...I don't care one way or another.  I don't feel it was nerfed or buffed...just changed.

[Bluesmith]

Get over it. 1.02 has shown that Bioware intends on balancing the game. Don't like it, mod it. It's much easier to break something than it is to fix it. You'll be happy in no time.

The only tool that is intentionally designed - and indeed, such is the only tool that *should* be so designed - to help newer players is the difficulty slider. OP spells are the byproduct of developer oversight, time constraints, bugs, and testing mistakes/failings, not a concerted effort to make the game easier for new players. No spell should ever become functionally unusable as you improve, yet such is the case if you want to keep having fun or, at least, keep improving. As they stand, mages are stupifyingly powerful crutches.

[Gecon]

I favor getting the nerfbat if something is unbalanced.



If people think it makes the game too hard, well lets introduce new difficulty levels. Give us



Simple - U cant die. No seriously, you have 1 HP min.

Easy - Even easier than Casual

Casual - The good old Easy. Make it easier !

Normal

Hard

Nightmare

Doom - the new Nightmare, now with double HP for opponents and all that jazz.

Hell - And you thought Doom was hard.

Impossible - U just cant win. Otherwise like on Hell, but all armor and weapon effects completely ignored and all items capped for level.



And everyone will find the level of comfort he's looking for.

[drknob]

LynxAQ wrote...

Every playthrough after that has been on nightmare and still alot of fights are too easy and I dont use any cheese tactics.

Maybe that's because "alot of fights" are about 10 times easier than the hard fights.

How hard can most fights be and still have the hard fights be doable?

It's an balance problem inherent to the RPG design paradigm: if the player is skilled enough to take on any large boss fight with comfort, then the rest of the fighting in the game will be a walk in the park.

[Ponce de Leon]

For now, I am not looking forward to try hard or nightmare. Just one to point out that I had serious difficulty on normal and even easy the first few runs. Then, I passed with my challenge to not have my character get injured. It's actually incredible how this can make the game easier, even on normal. Because you stay focused more on small details like how well you flank your enemies, how you use your spells, what tactics should be used and which weapons.

I am pretty sure that in a few runs, I should be able to do it on hard. Not really sure for Nightmare yet.

[Slayer D]

borelocin wrote...

Using tools designed to help players with lower skill levels will of course make the game simpler for you if you are more "skilled" - perhaps even too simple. So don't
 

You mean like easy and normal mode?  I'm pretty sure those are being left in.

Anyway, if something is out of whack in the game and unbalanced...  it should be fixed.  Simple.  Is there a good reason for bioware to NOT fix up their game as much as they can?  I know if I were the designer and noticed that some tweaks could be done to make the game better, I'd sure as hell put an update out to make my game the best and most polished it could possibly be.

Modifié par Slayer D, 10 décembre 2009 - 05:34 .

[nub5]

I'm not sure you are understanding the people crying for "balance" or "nerfs" correctly. Really the Players are too powerful and own the computer. To give the computer a fair chance they must not use (overuse) certain abilities. Mages are the king in PvM and that is not balanced for the "M". These people who post about this realize that the "M" (computer) does not have a voice on the boards. Someone has to speak for the computer. Thus they pick up the cause and cry for balance / nerf so the computer/M's can have fun too....

[Godeshus]

LynxAQ wrote...

Nightmare difficulty is there for a reason. Time for them to use it as such. I am one of those "verteran raiders" as you put it and on my first play through in this game I played on hard, cause it seemed like the proper way the game should be played. Normal had that silly half damage from friendly fire thing.

But halfway through the game I remember thinking to myself that this was a little easy... I didnt realise at that time the difficulty could be changed mid game, as most games that ask you what difficulty you want on the character creation screen can't normally be changed mid game. So I just continued and finished the game. Every playthrough after that has been on nightmare and still alot of fights are too easy and I dont use any cheese tactics. I only ever have 1 mage max in my group, I don't use FF, only allow myself 1 CoC use per fight (so I have to use it tactically if I have the spell) etc along with a load of silly limitations I put on myself just to get some resemblance of a challenge.

This is when I think to myself, surely I shouldnt have to do that in order to get a challenge when playing on nightmare difficulty.

Its not about a spell being over used so it should get nerfed, its about me being able to use every spell given in the game but still have a challenge. ATM that is not possible.

LynxAQ: I gotta say, I'm on the opposite "team" as you, but this is the most intelligent post for your "side" of the argument I've read so far. You are entirely correct, and based on your post it made me think that the classes themselves aren't overpowered, but perhaps it's simply that the difficulty levels aren't properly defined.

It used to be that games were easy, normal, and hard. These difficulty settings were self explanatory. 

Easy: The game is easy, no matter how much experience you had in gaming.

Normal: Made you think a little more. You couldn't just run in and own, but with just a little brain application you could get through no problem.

Hard: Was hard. No matter how much experience you had in gaming. Could be impossible for some gamers.

Since this new trend towards being politically correct (now you gotta call it casual, because it"s "insulting" to someone's pride to call it easy), it seems that there are blurry differences between the difficulties.

Maybe The Bioware Patchers should worry less about nerfing or ubering the different classes, and concentrate on making the increasing difficulties, well..., more DIFFICULT.  My first character got owned on casual. Now I'm playing on hard because i know the game mechanics. whether I know how the game works or not, if I put the difficulty on hard the game should be HARD. If I play it on nightmare, it should be a NIGHTMARE to play. REGARDLESS of the gaming experience I have.

Cheers for shedding some light on the subject.

[Whailor]

I like the game as it is. Why should the game be changed for me when I like it, just because someone else doesn't like it? I see no reason so those who whine should stop it. Game has, after all, several difficulty settings and if someone still cannot play it on Easy setting, which is REALLY EASY, then perhaps that person should stick with crosswords and not try to change the genre.



Fact is, on forums is still only the minority of players and sadly the most vocal part of forum people are the whiners. Why should the game be changed to accommodate them while making it less fun to, probably, much bigger group of players? Problem in most cases lies between the keyboard and the chair, and if someone cannot do something well, then obviously that person is using the available tools incorrectly, if at all. Change difficulty settings. Actually look at the stats and realize that sending Wynne in first is not a good thing, no matter how long stick she's wielding - you want in front the guy or gal who actually is decked out in metal. Bioware has done quite good work with the game and everything is explained very well, both in-game, in documentation and on the Net.

[Foofad]

Anyone who is asking for something to be hard for anyone at any skill level is asking for something totally impossible. That would be the holy grail of game design. Challenge scaling just doesn't work like that in the real world. Ultimately, every encounter is just a routine that has to be learned (or found, however you want to put it) and gone through in order to surmount. Perceived "difficulty" is an amalgamation of a lot of factors, but mostly boils down to time and complexity.

Thus the main ways to increase difficulty are to manipulate those factors. You can increase the time to complete a task, and you can increase the complexity required to complete it, and as you do that the number of people who are patient enough to take the time and clever enough to work out the complexity will decrease. Which makes sense. Not everyone wants to spend ten minutes on a trash pull that requires extensive tactics and coordination to pull off - and not everyone has the coordination and game knowledge to pull it off. It's naturally exclusive.

But then the catch comes in. Anyone patient enough can learn the routine. And that's the crux of the issue. On the one hand, you're excluding people - and on the other, you can't keep people from learning the routines. As soon as someone learns the routine, unless they screw up or the encounter takes too long and outweighs the player's patience, NO amount of added complexity can make the encounter "harder" when the player knows how to beat it.

WoW raiding (or really, any generic MMORPG) is a perfect example of this. Remember when Onyxia was a hard encounter? The hardest, in fact. How long did that last? It only lasted until every major raiding guild worth its salt memorized the routine for killing her. It's the same with every major raid boss.

Now, if you bring some sort of fluid or dynamic difficulty scaling into the picture such that every encounter is different (even encounters at the same point in the overall game) THEN there is an opportunity for hitting on perfect balance. The AI Director in Left 4 Dead comes to mind although it's far from perfect. In theory, if the players are having too easy of a time, the Director will throw in another horde just to keep you on your toes. Stuff like that. It's essentially like having a Dungeon Master. Then the issue becomes finding a difficult (read: complex) task for the player to get through that is surmountable for the player's skill level at that point in time, but isn't a cakewalk, and doing so on the fly.

Again, this is the holy grail of game design. Anyone in a rage over this game's difficulty scale should just pat themselves on the back for being clever or patient enough to beat Nightmare blindfolded, or whatever they do these days.

Modifié par Foofad, 10 décembre 2009 - 08:00 .

[orpheus333]

I wasn;'t around the forums back in BG2 days but did they have the same sought of threads for chain Contingeancy(sp?), Certain Spell Immunity combinations, Alacrity items and haste. Amongst the other broken spells in BG2?



It would be nice to know..

[EJ42]

The game has a toolset for it that lets us basically do anything we want.

There is no glory to be had in this game. It's not about bragging rights.

You were, perhaps, looking for some sort of online competitive game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I didn't like the nerfs in 1.02, so I installed a mod that undid them (except for Shimmering Shield - that seemed like a bugfix, so I let that one stand).

[Revik]

Dragon Age is unique in some respects to other games of its kind in it that it can be modded.

If these know-it-all posters think they are so smart why not just mod the game so that it does what you want. If you think you have this brilliant idea on how to make the game better just mod the game no problem. What's that? You're rather just be lazy and complain?