138 réponses à ce sujet

[jeff the zombie]

 I wouldn't be surprised if I spent something like 65% of the game paused considering my tactics.  Pause-and-play was a hallmark of the Infinity Engine games -- Baldur's Gate I & II, Icewind Dale I & II and Planescape: Torment, all classics in my opinion.  The fact that Dragon Age does it properly, even on console where I'm stuck playing it, makes it even more dear to my heart.

I believe Bethesda makes games with real time combat -- perhaps you should consider them?

[Jonfon_ire]

jeff the zombie wrote...

 I wouldn't be surprised if I spent something like 65% of the game paused considering my tactics.  Pause-and-play was a hallmark of the Infinity Engine games -- Baldur's Gate I & II, Icewind Dale I & II and Planescape: Torment, all classics in my opinion.  The fact that Dragon Age does it properly, even on console where I'm stuck playing it, makes it even more dear to my heart.

I believe Bethesda makes games with real time combat -- perhaps you should consider them?

Fallout 3 would like a word with you 

[SheffSteel]

boe2 wrote...

Seems the trolls ran out of stuff to bash.

Let's find out

[Solistus1]

While I don't love the Tactics system (it's primitive and poorly documented IMO), it's not supposed to replace manual control. If you don't like pausing and giving orders to your party, you don't like this genre of RPG. If you did, you would realise how ridiculous it is to claim that the only purpose of being able to pause and plan out your party's actions is to replace what you apparently expect, which is for the game to play itself for the most part with you only controlling 1/4 of your own party in combat.



Seriously, this would be like complaining on the Starcraft forums that the unit AI is terrible and you have to keep clicking around to move your guys in combat which defeats the whole purpose of AI pathing. In other words: the only useful concept it would convey is that you don't understand the game you are playing and are trying to force it to be some totally different game.

[MerinTB]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Jensonagain wrote...
No one in their right mind would ever make an RPG game that lets you pause combat.

This is actually true.  If people were in their right minds, all RPGs would be turn-based.

(What can I say, I prefer turn-based to any other option.)

Enchantment!

[Razh2211]

If the party AI bothers it that much, it should just turn it off and manage the party on it's own all the time.
I enjoy playing like that a lot more, even if it takes more time. Tactics are reduced to activating a few sustained abilities.
I don't need no stinkin' AI to manage my party in battle.

Modifié par Razh2211, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:40 .

[smore006]

This:

Statue wrote...

I think most of the negative reactions aren't to the suggestion that the AI tactics have flaws. There are flaws and there are some shiny bits. A lot of the negative reactions are because of the assertion that the pause feature only exists to compensate for AI flaws, which misses the point that it's a popular playstyle of a lot of long-time CRPG players, and would be whether the AI tactics were perfect or not.

I agree that constructively discussing what the specific flaws are is useful.

and this:

Fluffykeith wrote...

I'd hazard a guess that it's mostly down to the manner in which the complaints are made..."how" you say something is often as important as "what". If the OP had made a post that was constructed around giving useful feedback, I doubt there would have been such a nippy response. People tend to get worked up about posts that launch broad attacks on things, assume superiority or demand that everyone else prove they aren't "stupid" for not agreeing with the OP.



The problem with targeting mage/archers isn't a tactics issue, it's a Line of Sight/Threat issue, and either way it has nothing to do with the pause function. 



And in any case, the OPs tactic of going "waaaaa!!!! This is poo!" is hardly constructive

Both got the core of the issue right. At least in my case it was the 'how' i didn't like.

Modifié par smore006, 10 décembre 2009 - 04:46 .

[Rendar666]

Pausing, in my opinion, is oh so very important, especially on the Xbox and PS3. For mages, if you can't get to the spells by pure memory, you'll need some time to pick one. The tactical round menu thing could use a lot of work however. You can only tell one person what to do at a time before combat resumes. The game needs a real game PAUSE like Baldur's Gate so you can tell your peeps what to do and then unpause to watch your genius tactical insertion unfold in a flurry of bloody body parts and flaming heads. For real!!!!

[robertthebard]

I can't help but think about the suggested tactic, and the potential flaws there-in. So, the ultimate Tactic set up would attack mages, then archers then melee. On the surface, this looks like a good tactic, right? Until you get the Genlock Alpha, or Hurlock Alpha that beats your tank into a bloody paste while said tank is busy with that mage, or archer. All claims to computer programming aside, your basic philosophy of what makes a good tactic is flawed, and this is where your problems with the AI/Tactics come into play. In this case, it's the exact opposite of "Don't hate the player, hate the game", since the player is creating his/her own difficulties with AI by the tactics he/she chooses to use.

[mathewgurney]

Rendar666 wrote...

The tactical round menu thing could use a lot of work however. You can only tell one person what to do at a time before combat resumes.

Wrong, on 360 change ur settings so that the radial stays open while you hold down the trigger, you'll then be able to issue one command to each party member which will all execute together when you release the trigger.

[Dark83]

Jensonagain wrote...
There is nothing strategic about that. No one in their right mind would ever make an RPG game that lets you pause combat. That defeats the purpose of the battle in the first place.

I guess Turn-Based Strategy games aren't strategic then. Nor the Total War series, and I suppose the guys who made Ultima or Final Fantasy weren't in their right minds.

I guess the only real RPGs are the FPS ones. :innocent:
Deus Ex and System Shock FTW?

[wanderon]

Pausing is there for folks who want play out battles tacticly while fully controling ALL their characters - not everyone wants another dose of Dungeon Siege where you point your party in the right general direction and then go fix lunch and come back to see how they are doing.



Pause and play is for people who want to PLAY all aspects of their game and not just watch an interactive movie of thier party defeating the evil foes to save the world run by the games AI system.

[Dieover]

Lets put it this way OP, without pause in DAO is like having no communication via Vent in WoW while you're doing an epic dungeon grind with all your super nerdy friends.

Pause in this game has it own merits, because it allow you to enjoy every battle without rushing through it like you would find it in most MMO aka Single player games.

and hey I got ****** when my tank (Alister) just stood there but I just view it as a thing I need to focus on every things and every members around me and not rely on AI to handicap your way through a battle just because you feel like you're doing a micro-managing a squad.

even in Tactical FPS require pausing to deploy set up, game like Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon

[Dark83]

Dungeon Siege 1&2 has pause too, actually.

[Jax Sparrow]

How is it that almost every critic is a computer programming genius that couldn't possibly be more wrong? I believe that pausing is in the game to compensate for immersing into a simulated three dimensional world through a flawed keyboard, and two dimensional screen.

Modifié par Jax Sparrow, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:36 .

[Razh2211]

Of course. If we were in a real battle and had 3 friends with us who we know really well, including their moves and specialties, each of us would probably know what we had to do and would probably adapt to situation fairly quickly. During the pause, we are the avatar of each party member's thoughts and individual and group experiences.

If there wasn't a pause, a party members could just as well be blind retards depending on a moody AI.

[Pompeii69]

The pause and play feature is the primary reason I enjoyed this game, and others that feature it. In fact, I wish more games had this feature... I think Marvel Ultimate Alliance (1 & 2) would have been much much more enjoyable with this type of playstyle, just like the good ole Freedom Force games...

[Pompeii69]

The pause and play feature is the primary reason I enjoyed this game, and others that feature it. In fact, I wish more games had this feature... I think Marvel Ultimate Alliance (1 & 2) would have been much much more enjoyable with this type of playstyle, just like the good ole Freedom Force games...

[Pompeii69]

sorry for the double post, browser is acting a bit wonky today...

[Kourd]

I was gonna reply in this thread, but then I paused and reconsidered.

[Creature 1]

Jensonagain wrote...

Wanna know the real reason there is pausing in the game?

When the crappy companion AI breaks, you have to pause and fix it. There is nothing strategic about that. No one in their right mind would ever make an RPG game that lets you pause combat. That defeats the purpose of the battle in the first place.

Bioware still hasn't learned how to make intelligent companion AI that can follow your tactics without question.

Because the companion AI is still light years behind everyone else, they added "pausing" so you can fix the flaws in the companion AI.  When the AI breaks, you pause and fix it.

Are you smarter than the enemy AI?  I would hope so.  The enemy AI is programmed much more intensively than your companions' default AI and optimizing in the tactics panel, yet it's often quite stupid.  I haven't run into a game yet that is as good at deploying units, choosing attacks, and adapting to changing conditions as a human.  Maybe if you have Deep Blue running the AI you can go without pausing. 

Oh, and pausing live combat or having turn-based combat is historically the way RPGs are played.  That's even how pen-and-paper D&D is played. 

[Creature 1]

Drayth wrote...

I was gonna reply in this thread, but then I paused and reconsidered.

I wish my life had pause.  My AI is just not sufficient to handle it in real-time.  

[EJ42]

OP should try playing PnP DnD.

"OMG keep rolling!!!!"

[kingthrall]

Jensonagain wrote...

Wanna know the real reason there is pausing in the game?

When the crappy companion AI breaks, you have to pause and fix it. There is nothing strategic about that. No one in their right mind would ever make an RPG game that lets you pause combat. That defeats the purpose of the battle in the first place.

Bioware still hasn't learned how to make intelligent companion AI that can follow your tactics without question.

Because the companion AI is still light years behind everyone else, they added "pausing" so you can fix the flaws in the companion AI.  When the AI breaks, you pause and fix it.

As a computer programmer I spent hours trying to understand the "in game tactics" window.  It's flawed.

When you first trigger mobs, they don't all trigger and this fools your companions into thinking there is only 1-2 enemies.  So if their tactics are set to kill "mages and archers first", guess what? Chances are these mobs are in the back so your companions won't know it.

DESPITE this, I still love the game because the story & voice acting is so good. And I like the fact that flanking matters in the game.  These two things make up for the horrible companion AI/tactics.

CHALLENGE: Start a new game right now and play all the way to the tower of ishal upper floor.  I guarantee there is no way you can make a tactics script that will actually target and kill mages first followed by killing archers.  It's broken... You're companions may do it sometimes like 30-50% of the time but the other times it will break.

your an idiot, i dont use tactics ever it is a useless skill. I use pause and manually set up my troops the way i want. Try playing empire total war with full units of souix indians agaist a full stack of line infantry and you can appreciate why games are paused..... idiot

[MerinTB]

Pompeii69 wrote...

The pause and play feature is the primary reason I enjoyed this game, and others that feature it. In fact, I wish more games had this feature... I think Marvel Ultimate Alliance (1 & 2) would have been much much more enjoyable with this type of playstyle, just like the good ole Freedom Force games...

I agree completely.