81 réponses à ce sujet

[gammle]

Im so gona to kill Alistair hes so stupid spoild bastard....it freaks me out at the landsmet...i now starting to se it would be for the best if he died at the battlefield whit duncan....


He puts to much in honor and justice....and then he just want to chop loghains head of well thats not honor or justice..


Spoild bastard from now on he can sit in camp...

[Skellimancer]

No different than a human noble origin character wanting Howe dead.. no difference at all.

[gammle]

yea that means that....i cant stand him anymore...everything you try to do to get the best out of something hes there and whines about duncan bla bla bla and so on....i wish there was a option in camp kill Alistair while he sleeps and dump him in the forest..

I dumped humman race for the dwarfs and city elfs...coldent stand the whining about howe eather

Modifié par gammle, 10 décembre 2009 - 01:21 .

[Pennoyer]

For someone that looked up to Duncan so much, Alistair has nothing in common with Duncan. He is not willing to go anywhere near the lengths Duncan would to stop the blight. He is just a sissy little prince.

[OneBadAssMother]

There should have been an option during landsmeet



"[Persuade] Alistair, ask yourself what would Duncan do?"

[Aedan_Cousland]

gammle wrote...

He puts to much in honor and justice....and then he just want to chop loghains head of well thats not honor or justice..

I disagree.

There isn't anything dishonorable or injust about killing Loghain. Even ignoring the many crimes committed by Loghain, the fact of the matter is that both factions know from the start entering in to the Landsmeet that the loser is unlikely to recieve quarter from the victor. Both sides knew full well that their survival might depend on the outcome of the vote.

The confrontation in the Landmeet is 'winner takes all' and neither faction would be entering it expecting to survive if the votes don't go their way. If the Landsmeet votes against you and Alistair, the first thing Loghain does is order your execution. Alistair can hardly be expected to be merciful to Loghain, considering he'd be excuted for trying to usurp the crown if the votes had gone the other way.

[Saurel]

Skellimancer wrote...

No different than a human noble origin character wanting Howe dead.. no difference at all.

really?........really?

Loghain didn't actively murder Duncan and Cailan. I'm not trying to defend his actions, but what he did and what Howe did are different. And what Howe did was much more personal.

[Skellimancer]

Saurel wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

No different than a human noble origin character wanting Howe dead.. no difference at all.

really?........really?

Loghain didn't actively murder Duncan and Cailan. I'm not trying to defend his actions, but what he did and what Howe did are different. And what Howe did was much more personal.

Don't forget the attempt on the Arl's life and the assassins sent to kill you and Alistair.

[Jisai]

Honour and Justice... yes such things are frightful indeed.

Imagine a man whom ACTUALLY cares about such foolishness... perish the thought.



Oh, and about the Duncan/Cailin // Loghain/Howe snippit...



- Howe killed your entire family

- Howe was under direct orders from Loghain to cut off the supply line and loyalists to Cailin from the Cousland Family



- Loghain sent not only the Jowan to kill Eamon, and take out a possible ursurper to his obtaining the throne, but he also assumed Alistair dead when he allowed the tower in Ostagar to be taken by the darkspawn, cutting off the other potential successor. Loghains grand plan hits a snag when Howe informs him of Alistair's continual existance and send the Crows after him, and the bounty on any other Grey Wardens left in Ferelden.



He also quit the field when he saw the break point in the tower being lit knowing the battle was at its climax and that the king and the Wardens would be overrun.



So yes, is Howe just as much to blame as Loghain?

You bet he is, moreso even since it was part of his coup for the throne.

[Dasim4]

Loghain had the power to prevent their deaths but turned his back and let it happen. He is just as guilty as the darkspawn that did the killing. The plan of the attack was agreed on by Loghain and the King. When Loghain pulls his men out of the battle the Darkspawn, in effect, become his hired assassins. It's a way to get rid of the king he doesn't agree with in a manner that doesn't directly implicate him in the killing other than the fact he withdrew his forces. The fact that he vilified the Grey Wardens, who died honorably fighting beside the king, only makes him into more of a coward and villain. Loghain may love his country but his "I'll have it my way at all costs" attitude has put him on a very dark path.

[Saurel]

Well its not an evil contest. I mean I just don't see it as the same thing as having the guy who killed your family brutally versus the guy who killed a guys surrogate father and almost killed but failed to kill his other surrogate father.

[Brass_Buckles]

Okay, I disliked Alistair for a while after his tantrum and his dumping of my character, too. I got over it after a while. The dumping I understood, though I didn't expect it--Alistair was doing what was best for Ferelden: the good of many over the good of one. The tantrum I at first did not. Why would he not show mercy after so many times encouraging it?



Well, Loghain betrayed the king and the wardens, along with the king's entire army. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people died as a result. Some of the female soldiers were likely turned into Broodmothers. If that's not enough for you, he sent an assassin to kill Eamon, as mentioned above, and agreed to hire Zevran to kill your PC and Alistair. Still not enough? How about his involvement in selling the city elves into slavery? So you say this still isn't enough reason for Alistair to hate the man enough to want him dead rather than offer him the honor of being a Grey Warden? The king happened to be Alistair's brother, Eamon had taken Alistair in, and Alistair seemed to think of Duncan as a father figure. Plus, unless you're a total jerk to him, Alistair tends to be friendly/in love with your PC enough that I'm sure he'd take assassination attempts on said PC personally. That all combines to make his loathing of Loghain very personal.



Does it even make sense to make the man who betrayed the Wardens of Ferelden into a Warden himself? Can he be trusted not to do the same once he actually is a Warden? And let's not forget that even though being a Warden isn't a pleasant experience, it is an honor--you will be a hero of Ferelden, and since this is a Blight you'll likely be remembered for all time as such. Do you really want a traitor like Loghain getting that kind of positive attention? It may set a bad example. From what I've heard, he actually is great as a Warden, but your PC does not know that he will be. So yes, I can see why this is Alistair's breaking point, and all things considered I realized it wasn't as inconsistent with his character as I had thought when I first saw that scene.



Personally, I don't like sparing Loghain because of what he's done, but at some point I will keep him around a couple times for the endings he enables. I might come to like him better if I have my characters chat with him a while. When I had tried to spare him the first time, I hadn't played the game for a couple of days, and the memory of Loghain's treachery was not fresh in my mind. That said, other people probably like Loghain (I've seen some note that he's very useful because he is a tactician, etc.) and those people may think I'm horrible for preferring whiny, not-terribly-bright Alistair--but I'd rather have an ally I know I can trust than one who betrayed my comrades before I got the chance to meet them. Most of my characters would feel the same, especially the elves, who don't appreciate being enslaved, thank you very much.



I think part of the reason that Alistair's tantrum may not make sense to people is that by that point, you've done/seen so many other things going on that it's hard to remember just how horrible Loghain's actions were. While he didn't do the worst things in the game (arguably Branka's actions are the worst), he comes pretty close. The fact that there have been other problems doesn't make Loghain's behavior any less criminal, nor will it weaken Alistair's resolve to see Loghain punished for his actions.

[Decomposey]

OneBadAssMother wrote...

There should have been an option during landsmeet

"[Persuade] Alistair, ask yourself what would Duncan do?"

Not exactly a smart persuade.  All it would have done is make Alistair kill Loghain by stabbage to the gut instead of beheading.

I can't believe so many people had a problem with Als reaction.  Hell, I handed him the sword!

[Medhia Nox]

I liked Alistair up until that moment.



Forcing Loghain to become a Warden.. AND forcing him to live (I chose to die) was the harshest punishment the man could get. He even says so in the dialogue after you tell him that he doesn't get to take the easy way out. He lives the rest of his days recruiting new Wardens and making amends.. death is easy..



Alistair throws a temper tantrum when you don't do what he wants. He demanded to be king JUST so he could have Loghain killed. This whole time he proclaims that he doesn't want to be leader.. proves he's incapable as a leader by letting a recruit tell him what to do.. and even Morrigan confirms constantly that he's just not leader material. That's not a reason to want to be king. Just because you want your way. It's the act of a selfish, infantile, brat.



Then, when you refuse to give him a pony.. he takes his ball and leaves.



THEN, you find out he spends the rest of his days as a drunk loser.



The man is so far from any sort of real hero.. he's hardly even a man.

[gammle]

yea that is what im talking about alistair is just a spoild litel princ that like to act like a idiot....i just cant stand him anymore im on anew game true and i wont use alistar a single minit of that game play..i better bring shale as a scapper..

[Adria Teksuni]

As far as the epilogue that infers that the drunk loser is Alistair, I don't buy it. You cannot just stop being a Warden. The taint prohibits it.



He does whine a bit, and I do not agree with how they have him storm off at the Landsmeet, but I can see it justified better with a little different dialogue.



Overall, despite his flaws, I found him a noble, worthy companion and much easier to deal with than, say, Morrigan.

[Jisai]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Forcing Loghain to become a Warden.. AND forcing him to live (I chose to die) was the harshest punishment the man could get. He even says so in the dialogue after you tell him that he doesn't get to take the easy way out. He lives the rest of his days recruiting new Wardens and making amends.. death is easy.. 

I dont see myself ever recruiting Loghain, regardless of what his dialogue says about it being "worse".
Being a Warden would not be something worthy of him, that just basically says that the Wardens are no better than a mercenary band. I seriously doubt I could ever trust Loghain to watch my back or protect any other Warden in a tough fight. Thats like recruiting Zev or Sten, just give them an opporrtunity to double-cross you when you are weakened. 

I do not find Alistair 'whiney' at all, he doesnt think before he opens his mouth alot, but that could be said for a few people. He also has an uncanny knack for antagonizing Morri which is always good for a laugh.

Modifié par Jisai, 11 décembre 2009 - 03:40 .

[Medhia Nox]

See, I found Morrigan honest.



Yes, she complains endlessly.. but when she presents you with her proposal at the end. I said to myself.. "Lady, you're twisted, selfish, and.. I'd wager.. evil and batsh-t nuts... but, I saw this coming from a mile away. Now.. get gone."



Some people might say that makes her one dimensional.. I think it was simply that she was honest.



Alistair was a liar from the get go. He lies to you about his birth (technically he just witholds the information) - he lies to you by portraying himself as something he isn't.. there's nothing noble, honest, or good about the man. Just naive and ignorant. He tries to dodge every conversation with moronic humor. Maybe I'm one of the only people that tired of his BS real quick. He's full of self-righteousness.. selfishness.. all piled under a veil of stupidity.



Fortunately.. he shows how devoted he is to "the cause" and his friends.. by abandoning them because he doesn't get his way. He walks away from everything Duncan stood for.. because he was too busy pouting. The BIG thing that he claims affected him SO deeply.. the one man that stood up for him.. "saved" him.. and he betrays him in the end because he can't get his way. ((Of course, only the potential for this exists in campaigns where people kill Loghain.))



But the truth is.. given the right circumstances... Alistair.. is pathetic.



----



I don't know if I just missed it.. or never went far enough with some conversations.. but one thing I would have LOVED.. is if you could talk to different party members about others in the group. Get Sten's opinion on Morrigan.. Wrynn's opinion on Zev.. etc.

[Iozeph]

Jisai wrote...
I dont see myself ever recruiting Loghain, regardless of what his dialogue says about it being "worse".
Being a Warden would not be something worthy of him, that just basically says that the Wardens are no better than a mercenary band. I seriously doubt I could ever trust Loghain to watch my back or protect any other Warden in a tough fight. Thats like recruiting Zev or Sten, just give them an opporrtunity to double-cross you when you are weakened. 

I do not find Alistair 'whiney' at all, he doesnt think before he opens his mouth alot, but that could be said for a few people. He also has an uncanny knack for antagonizing Morri which is always good for a laugh.

Go back to the beginning of the game when you're sent to find and talk to Alistair in Ostagar. There's quite a bit of dialogue to be had, including some history and some of his impressions about the Grey Wardens.

You can ask, "So the Grey wardens are knights... Heroes even?"  And you are told point blank, "No. They do whatever it takes to get the job done."

Asking Alistair what Duncan would do is a non starter, though, because Duncan is equally worthless. For someone who has no compunction about ruining lives through conscription, or killing people like Jory to do nothing but make some sort of stupid point, Duncan doesn't have the balls to tell Cailin the reality of the situation concerning the blight. Even when you confront him and tell him that Cailin really seems to respect his counsel, he retires like a shrinking violet and gives up the fight before even trying to convince him. What the hell? Duncan's to blame for the majority of the misery and grief that take place after Ostagar. Why are we venerating him at all?

Loghain may be duplicitous, he may be a zealot, but he is a survivor, and a man of action who fights for what he believes in. He doesn't make apologies for taking whatever measures he feels he needs to in order to get the job done. His one mistake, his Achilles heel, was his undying mistrust of all things Orlesian. Had he allied with Duncan, waited for the reinforcements from Orlais, and left the "King" in a corner to suck his thumb, we'd be looking at a vastly different story here.

People seem to forget that Loghain is not of "noble stock." He was elevated to nobility for service. As an outsider, still looking in, he can see the vast majority of Ferelden's nobility for what they are. Worms fighting over the same rotten apple. They're more concerned with safeguarding their own power and privelege than with doing anything for the people they are charged to protect. So much so that they are willing to spill their subjects blood in petty wars with their fellow Nobles in order to secure even more power. So much for noblesse oblige.

One need only play the Orzammar portion of DA:O to see why Loghaine did the things he did. His compass presented him with two options. Force Ferelden to take the bitter pill and save themselves by fighting for their freedom. Or allow them to participate in the grand old game, wrapping themselves in denial and dying slowly via committee. Not much of a choice, really.

Long story short,  in light of his performace at the landsmeet, Alistair, for all of his humanistic lip service, fits in quite well with the rest of the "Nobility." He really is a royal bastard. Nothing but a hypocrite, and a joke.

[beserker7]

Pennoyer wrote...

For someone that looked up to Duncan so much, Alistair has nothing in common with Duncan. He is not willing to go anywhere near the lengths Duncan would to stop the blight. He is just a sissy little prince.

This.

[Aedan_Cousland]

. As an outsider, still looking in, he can see the vast majority of Ferelden's nobility for what they are. Worms fighting over the same rotten apple. They're more concerned with safeguarding their own power and privelege than with doing anything for the people they are charged to protect. So much so that they are willing to spill their subjects blood in petty wars with their fellow Nobles in order to secure even more power. So much for noblesse oblige.

Ironic then, that by the time the landsmeet is held that would be an apt description of Loghain as well.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 11 décembre 2009 - 07:22 .

[Iozeph]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

. As an outsider, still looking in, he can see the vast majority of Ferelden's nobility for what they are. Worms fighting over the same rotten apple. They're more concerned with safeguarding their own power and privelege than with doing anything for the people they are charged to protect. So much so that they are willing to spill their subjects blood in petty wars with their fellow Nobles in order to secure even more power. So much for noblesse oblige.

Ironic then, that by the time the landsmeet is held that would be an apt description of Loghain as well.

Only to a point. It's sad really. For all that he's been granted a title, Loghaine is still considered an outsider. His daughter is still secretly considered one step away from low-borne trash. Look at Eamon's opinions on her validity. Never mind that Loghaine has actually earned his rank, instead of enjoying the fruits of an accident of birth.

Place yourself in Loghaine's shoes. He's been fighting wars for the independence of Ferelden, the reason there is even a throne to fight over, since before the PC, the current King, or Alistair were borne. By all accounts he worshipped the ground Maric walked upon. He's a true believer. A patriot if ever there was one. For Loghaine to see Cailin contemplate calling in cavalry regiments from Orlais and willingly turn over everything that Loghaine and Maric had fought for? I think I'd go a little insane as well. If there are none so zealous as the converted I would argue that there are none so treacherous as the disillusioned.

Look at the real world- how often does an occupying country willingly leave when it has the technological/military advantage in a region it wants to exploit? With most their soldiery depleted and their coffers nearly empty, how would a state like Ferelden be able to fight off Orlais if it decided to invade/occupy again? As an organisation, the Grey Wardens wouldn't deign to interfere for fear of losing their neutrality.

While I don't condone or agree with Loghaine's methods, I can understand the rationale that brought him to them. If being a Grey Warden is an honour, I'd say, more than anyone in ferelden, Loghaine's earned a chance at redemption through continued service. If a character like Alistair can't see past his hatred and find the grace to see the wisdom in that, then does he truly deserve to rule?

[Medhia Nox]

Loghain is a psychopath.. but I appreciate that he, like Morrigan, is at least honest with the world (and the player) through their actions. When you discuss things with him.. after keeping him alive.. he agrees with you plainly that the two of you are not, and will not, be friends. I agree.. I didn't keep him alive so we could throw back a pint after throwing down the Archdemon. I kept him alive to punish him for all that he did.. for his ignorance, his war mongering, his cruelty, malice, and lack of compassion.

But, for ALL of that.. I still consider him a better man than Alistair.

Alistair tells you that "The wardens need to get the job done." and then he throws his FIRST tantrum after you save Conner through Blood Magic (I haven't done the others yet). Conner needs to be saved.. if I'm going to get Arl Eamon's help.. so this IS for fighting darkspawn. I don't have time to go running up to the wizards... begging for help.. running back.. etc.

His little tantrum was the first time I wanted to run him through with a sword. Duncan had NO problem with blood magic.. even Greagore had less problems with it. When Duncan says: "Greagor, you know there's worse things than blood magic." Greagor says nothing.. implying that he does indeed know.

He doesn't approach the situation with his sister any better. Does he really think that he was the only one suffering? He's so hellbent on doing "What Alistair wants." that he rarely ever gives a damn about other people..

Then, of course.. after everything "I" did for him (Because I decide if we go to his sisters.. I decide to give him his mother's amulet.. I decide to listen to his constant whining and not leave him in a ditch.) he turns his back on me and leaves me to fight the Archdemon by myself...

A failure as a Grey Warden.. a failure as a friend.. and a failure as a man.

((Sorry, I really hate the character of Alistair. NOT how he was written... I think it was brilliant.. but the man the character was presented as.))

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 11 décembre 2009 - 10:37 .

[Fishy]

gammle wrote...

Im so gona to kill Alistair hes so stupid spoild bastard....it freaks me out at the landsmet...i now starting to se it would be for the best if he died at the battlefield whit duncan....


He puts to much in honor and justice....and then he just want to chop loghains head of well thats not honor or justice..


Spoild bastard from now on he can sit in camp...

if i try to kill you for 2 years .. Helped kil lyour entire family .. Told everyone that you killed the King while it's me and tryed to usurp the throne and killed the mentor of your bestfriend .. Than do a landmeet and tell everyone how of a piece of darkspawn poop you're .. You would forgive me?

Loghain deserve death 100th time.Do you even realize he tryed to kill the 2 last remaining Gray Warden and all they wanted to do was saving the world?How can you just sweep that?I kill  Loghain each time and when his head  cut i have a virtual orgasm.
He did a lot of other crap also .. Like the Elf district thing and all the other crap .. It's insane what he did. He deserve death 100000000X time.Even death's to sweet for this guy.

Modifié par Suprez30, 11 décembre 2009 - 11:00 .