81 réponses à ce sujet

[frostajulie]

I think that Alistair was unable to be the man he wanted to be. While he preferred the life of a grey warden to that of a templer, Alistair just never had the stones or commitment to do what was necessary as a grey Warden.



Alistair wanted to be good and noble and honorable. Alistair wanted to be the one to sacrifice all for honor. But in the end Alistair was a bastard that had never known family until Duncan. And in the end he couldn't show mercy or compassion and indeed could not be the honorable champion he always aspired to be when these noble intentions came into conflict with his very human nature and his very human desire to slay the man responsible for the death of the only father he had ever known.



This was Alistairs break from the reality he had created for himself. The moment he walked away from Ferelden because his vengeance was denied he learned the truth of his own nature. Unable to live with the guilt he drowned his sorrows in booze. It probably would have been more merciful to kill him at the landsmeet.



I am so glad that pathetic loser had to live with the knife of his own perfidy twisting in his gut for years while my mage got to save Ferelden by being a better man than Alistair ever had any hope of being. And she was a woman.

[ThraximusZog]

When I was at the end there I was a human noble and saw my brother there at the end (whatever his name was).. I had not found him during the game...guess I got lazy and left him to his fate.. but when I saw him there at the end I was like.. ha! yeah I would have killed Allistar if it woulda let me.

[Medhia Nox]

Well said, frostajulie.

[Raethowyrr]

In Alistair's defence:

- Arl Eamon was the only family Alistair had until he joined the wardens. He wasn't accepted as a templar, and so many of his conversations tell you that he thinks of the wardens (esp. Duncan) as his family now.

- Loghain killed all the wardens Alistair knew, or at least contributed to their deaths, and tried to kill Eamon too. So from Alistair's perspective yes Loghain did murder or attemp to murder his whole family

- you're not just asking him to spare Loghain's life, you want to make him a warden. To Alistair this is like letting Loghain in to his family.

So I think it's completely understandable that when you try to include Loghain as a grey warden Alistair snaps. He's not just throwing a tantrum he seriously can't live with letting the man he sees as destroying everything he loved into what he thinks of as his family. If you go through with it then Alistair is completely broken - I think he ends up as a drunk.

I'm not saying it's 100% rational, but it's certainly understandable.

[A1x2e3l]

Alistair is NOT a prince he is a bustard in the best case
scenario. There are no legal documents that he is a King’s son acknowledged by
the father and clerics. It is a totally crazy idea to promote a bustard on the
Throne.

I kicked this guy (as well as Morrigan) from my party as
soon as I met other available companions. However, this annoying person wearing
a new armor that I did not give him jumped in front of the soldiers with stupid
speeches encouraging them for the final battle. How he is? He was all the time
sleeping in the camp (probably flirting with hag-Morrigan) getting points for
doing nothing. I blocked his pragmatic marriage (another nonsense) selecting
Anora to be a single ruler.

My PC refused to include him in the final party and died
after killing archdaemon (I refused to cooperate with Morrigan and perform her
barbaric rituals). The funny thing is that in the cut-scene during my PC’s
funeral she (my PC was a female) was blinking eyes (being presumably dead) and
after very impressive tragic final game messages she appeared to be pretty
alive with full inventory and ready for DLC quests. That’s very odd.

Alistair was good only for one thing: keeping my PC hands
clean via executing Loghain (she killed criminal-assassin Zevran herself).
These cowards promised to rescue my PC from Loghain’s torture chambers (she
surrendered letting the Queen and others to flee) but did nothing and were
“nicely” surprised when she managed to escape herself.

There should be no new king or queen: Grey Warden should
rule the land like Templars or Teutonic knights and PC should become its
Grandmaster.

Modifié par A1x2e3l, 13 décembre 2009 - 05:56 .

[Yasu88]

Maybe it's just me but to all those that think that Alistair is a pathetic wimp simply refuse to see the big picture. Now imagine yourself with your family. Now imagine that your family has been slaughtered due to a single man lets call that man Bob. Now for the past two years Bob has been trying to kill you as well. Now you finally have your chance for vengeance when a judge says that Bob's punishment is not to die but rather become your new family. I'm sorry but I think a lot of people would flat refuse this punishment and if forced would outright snap.

Now look at Alistair, the grey wardens were his family. He considered being a Grey Warden to be a honor. The cream of the crop.  Now Loghain who killed his family and his adoptive father, Duncan, is supposed to become a Grey Warden and join his family.  I completly understand his reasons for snapping. 

I for one would never allow the killer of my father to live. 

Modifié par Yasu88, 13 décembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[doubledeviant]

Ok...

Duncan and Loghain are similar in that each is willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish his "greater good".

Remember Ser Jory?

If Duncan is a standard for Grey Wardens, then it is plausible that Loghain could serve as a Warden of similar calibur if bent to the same "greater good" (stopping the Blight).

The Grey Wardens are zealots and extremists willing to do whatever it takes to stop the Blight. Evil, if you ask me. :-P

Modifié par doubledeviant, 13 décembre 2009 - 08:59 .

[Yasu88]

doubledeviant wrote...

Ok...

Duncan and Loghain are similar in that each is willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish his "greater good".

Remember Ser Jory?

If Duncan is a standard for Grey Wardens, then it is plausible that Loghain could serve as a Warden of similar calibur if bent to the same "greater good" (stopping the Blight).

The Grey Wardens are zealots and extremists willing to do whatever it takes to stop the Blight. Evil, if you ask me. :-P

I really can't tell if your being serious or not.  If you have been paying attention Dragon Age then you should learn that nothing in it is black and white.  Nothing really can be classified as easily as pure good or pure evil.  On Duncan killing Ser Jory remember you don't volunteer for the Grey Wardens you are recruited.  The Grey Wardens need to keep the joining secret for whatever reason and if Ser Jory was going to wimp out.  Well then he paid the price for being a Grey Warden sooner rather then later.

Also how can you group an entire group based off of the actions of one individual?  Just because Duncan goes to those extremes it doesn't mean that all do.  If you haven't read The Calling yet I recomend you do it brings to light on some aspects of Grey Warden culture and practices.

[Iozeph]

Yasu88 wrote...

I really can't tell if your being serious or not.  If you have been paying attention Dragon Age then you should learn that nothing in it is black and white.  Nothing really can be classified as easily as pure good or pure evil.  On Duncan killing Ser Jory remember you don't volunteer for the Grey Wardens you are recruited.  The Grey Wardens need to keep the joining secret for whatever reason and if Ser Jory was going to wimp out.  Well then he paid the price for being a Grey Warden sooner rather then later.

Also how can you group an entire group based off of the actions of one individual?  Just because Duncan goes to those extremes it doesn't mean that all do.  If you haven't read The Calling yet I recomend you do it brings to light on some aspects of Grey Warden culture and practices.

Right... because we're supposed to shell out even more money for a simulanteous book release, in order to get back story that should have been organic to the game we already paid a solid chunk of cash for. How about no?

So nothing is black or white. Dragon age is such a dark tale bent on turning all the old fantasy tropes on their ears, right? Then where is the option, during the joining, for the PC to band together with Jory, fight off and possibly kill Alistair and Duncan, and then desert? Have them end up in Lothering or Flemeth's camp via a different plot development, for al I care. Where is the option?

Really. I couldn't care less for Alistair's misguided case of hero worship. He's every bit the irresponsible moron that his brother, the king, was. It's all about joining the secret club and sitting around goofing off at the clubhouse- occasionally going out to play soldier and fight things that aren't anywhere as well equipped or able to fight against you, unless they band together under an archdemon. Nevermind all of the lives ruined by Duncan, and those of his ilk, because it's for the "greater good."

Duncan's an honourable man? No. Duncan is travelling the countryside shopping for meat and picking the choicest cuts for his slaughter. Joining gets you a bull'seye on your back, ever-increasing insanity, and a grisly death down in the deeproads. And you do this in exchange for escaping what? A little extra duty as a templar, or a mage, or doing time in jail as a rogue and breaking out on your own or going legit? How is the joining a mercy or an honour to any but the terminally ill or stupid? Duncan knows exactly what price he's forcing people to pay and he does it anyway. So you know what? Screw him.

Daveth is proof enough that there are plenty of true believers and patriots willing to do something as stupid as drinking darkspawn blood for the benefit of Ferelden. So go recruit them and leave people with families to protect alone.

How does Alistair rationalise sticking by the PC after offering a chance for redemption to Sten(a self-confessed CHILD KILLER), and then completly flipping out when you want to offer Loghaine redemption?

Screw Alistair. Best thing the writers could have done would have been to give you the option to slit his throat in camp, or arrange for an "accident" to occur whilst hunting for the blood and the scrolls in the Wilds, before the battle of Ostagar.

The wardens are lawful/evil at best- chaotic/neutral at worst.

Modifié par Iozeph, 13 décembre 2009 - 11:07 .

[Cybercat999]

Yeah, I cant forget how Duncan basically blackmailed my PCs Father in human noble origin, "give me your daughter or I will not save her". And he never mentions the real consequences that come from drinking that yucky blood. Basically he tricks you any way he can into getting your life totally screwed.

And Alistair, tricking my noble girl into tent, and when she asks him "where do you see this thing between us going" he starts to babble about duty and honor and backs off - yeah so very honorable thing to do, imo if he screws a noble girl the only thing he can do as a man of honor is to marry her asap.

(Ok, my girl went around a bit before that but she *could* have been virgin before Alistair and after all as experienced as he was how would he know anyway)

[Lotion Soronarr]

OneBadAssMother wrote...

There should have been an option during landsmeet

"[Persuade] Alistair, ask yourself what would Duncan do?"

Al: Kill Loghain of course! *SLICE*

It never sit well wiht me..that whole scene. But for a completely different reason. Killing Loghain is the politicly proudent thing to do and it is what the law demands.
BUT the fact that he suddenly gives that whole "I can die peacefully knwowing you're in charge" speach that COMPLETELY a W.T.F? moment (it seems so out-of-character. He's defying you to the last, thinking you a orlesian spy, and suddenly, when you defeat him he immediately belives you're good for Ferelden? WTF? How does that prove I'm not a spy? WTF?????)
AND that Anora is watching while he gives the "daughters are allways kids" speech. David I hate you for this. You deliberately want to make the killing scene as "wrong" as possible.

I hated there is no option to throw him in hte dungeon for a trial. Or have the guards execute him. Or to send Anora away so she doens't want. Or to jsut kill him immediatey, without giving him time to talk.

[Lucy Glitter]

This is like a battle between Alistair fangirls/boys and people who hate Carth/Anomen/Kaiden/etc.

[Medhia Nox]

Well, concerning Duncan. Each origin sets it up that your character would die at the end of the Origin were it not for Duncan. Does that make him noble? No.. he never professses to be. He states he is a man with a job. You are an opportunity to fulfill that job.. and, it just so happens that you would be dying at the moment he finds you.



So, he either prolongs your life by a week (?) or 30 years depending on whether or not you survive the Joining. We are all destined to die.. he just provided the character with some more time. I definately have zero problems with Duncan.



----



If Alistair REALLY cared about Duncan.. he would begrudgingly stay.. request to die killing the Archdemon.. and fulfill everything Duncan stand for.



Instead.. he abandon's Duncan's fight.. and goes off to become a drunk. And why?



Because he couldn't practice self-control.



----



Yasu - I have only a rudimentary relationship with my father in real life. I am not "blood blind" as I call it. I don't practice compassion when someone elses father dies(I don't go around kill the murderers of everyone elses fathers).. but suddenly, when it's MY daddy.. then I must kill, kill, kill.



To me.. a person of good character - shows who he/she is under duress. Not when it's easy to "talk" about being noble and good.



Alistair fails completely at friendship, duty and familial love. He betrays me.. he betrays the quest.. and most importantly.. he betrays Duncan (his father).



Seeking revenge on Loghain.. would not make Duncan happy.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Alistair was a liar from the get go. He lies to you about his birth (technically he just witholds the information) - he lies to you by portraying himself as something he isn't.. there's nothing noble, honest, or good about the man. Just naive and ignorant. He tries to dodge every conversation with moronic humor. Maybe I'm one of the only people that tired of his BS real quick. He's full of self-righteousness.. selfishness.. all piled under a veil of stupidity.

Fortunately.. he shows how devoted he is to "the cause" and his friends.. by abandoning them because he doesn't get his way. He walks away from everything Duncan stood for.. because he was too busy pouting. The BIG thing that he claims affected him SO deeply.. the one man that stood up for him.. "saved" him.. and he betrays him in the end because he can't get his way. ((Of course, only the potential for this exists in campaigns where people kill Loghain.))

But the truth is.. given the right circumstances... Alistair.. is pathetic.

Bollocks.

Alistair doens't need to tell you his birthright right away. Why should he? First of all, he is told to keep it for himself, secondly, you're a recruit he's only known a VERY short time.

Secondly, he's not stupid. He makes (for some, bad) jokes, so what? He's a capable leader and warrior.

Thirdly, to describe his storming off as betraying Duncan....that's redicolous...

Loghain may be duplicitous, he may be a zealot, but he is a survivor,
and a man of action who fights for what he believes in. He doesn't make
apologies for taking whatever measures he feels he needs to in order to
get the job done.

Which is a serious flaw, not a virtue. Loghain never doubts his decisions, no matter how horrid. He doens't apologize for doing horrible things. that's not strength of character - that's weakness of character. He prefersto ignore the negative consequences of his action, pretend they aren't there, instead of facing them.

At least Duncan sez he's sorry when he does something more extreeme. He regreat every single life lost. Loghian doesn't care.

People seem to forget that Loghain is not of "noble stock." He was
elevated to nobility for service. As an outsider, still looking in, he
can see the vast majority of Ferelden's nobility for what they are.
Worms fighting over the same rotten apple. They're more concerned with
safeguarding their own power and privelege than with doing anything for
the people they are charged to protect.

Yes, Loghain did a FANTASTIC job of protecting them. Especially the elves in the Alienege...

Alistair tells you that "The wardens need to get the job done." and
then he throws his FIRST tantrum after you save Conner through Blood
Magic

You Sir, are blind.
The man is questioning your action - was it the right decision to take. That isnt' whining. That's the right attitude. Only be reflecting and contemplating ones choices and mistakes can one hope to not repeat them in the future.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 décembre 2009 - 01:25 .

[deadrockstar]

OneBadAssMother wrote...

There should have been an option during landsmeet

"[Persuade] Alistair, ask yourself what would Duncan do?"

That'd be quite interesting. Personally I think Duncan would want to put Loghain through the ritual. Duncan shows through all the origins that he believes the blight to take precedence above all and he is hellbent on recruiting Grey Wardens. I think it is in the city-Elf origin that he throws out the line that "[Grey-Warden recruitment] isn't charity", so I can't see Alistair throwing his toys out the pram going down well with him. Would Alistair still react that way if it were Duncan recruiting?

If so, that throws out another interesting problem. Does Duncan lose one Grey Warden with the risk that Loghain will not see the ritual through? Loghain would be a far handier ally in the final battle, but Alistair is better than nothing, no?

Regardless, Alistair is completely in the wrong and has shown his unworthiness to be a Grey Warden. Blight above all, Alistair! Don't let your personal grievances get in the way - The Grey Wardens aren't  (neccessarily) some shining organisation to be held up to a higher standard, their purpose is to simply stop a blight wherever it may appear.

Modifié par deadrockstar, 13 décembre 2009 - 01:34 .

[Iozeph]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Which is a serious flaw, not a virtue. Loghain never doubts his decisions, no matter how horrid. He doens't apologize for doing horrible things. that's not strength of character - that's weakness of character. He prefersto ignore the negative consequences of his action, pretend they aren't there, instead of facing them.

At least Duncan sez he's sorry when he does something more extreeme. He regreat every single life lost. Loghian doesn't care.

Yeah? Tell that to Jory. Tell it to his unbourne son and his widow. I'm sure they'll understand.

Call it weakness of character. I call it pragmatism. Saying sorry won't
bring the dead back. It won't ease the suffering of the wronged either. Jory could have joined the regular troops at Ostagar but instead Duncan killed him when they were in desperate need of more troops. But no- keeping the club a secret was more important.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes, Loghain did a FANTASTIC job of protecting them. Especially the elves in the Alienege...

I'm not going to justify racism. That it's stupid, is a given. That said, nobody cared about the Elves. Go play a Dalish Elf and address the Landsmeet concerning Loghaine's fleeing the battlefield at Ostagar. Watch as the people practically laugh you out of the hall.

As for the other nobles, Loghaine stated repeatedly that he swore to protect Ferelden, the nation, from all enemies both foreign and domestic. If he saw some of those nobles, or other citizens, as enemies then chances are he'd have acted on that. That none of the nobles, other than Teagan, had the stones to defy Loghaine in the open until Eamon called a landsmeet spoke volumes as well.

What's more, they were willing to honour the results of a trial by combat in the very halls of the landsmeet. One of the results being that you'd have lost  the duel with Loghaine. Yeah, somehow I don't think the nobles of Ferelden are all that concerned about who is morally in the right.

Is that good? Is it just? No, and no, but that's what you get for buying "dark" and "edgy" titles like DA:O.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You Sir, are blind.
The man is questioning your action - was it the right decision to take. That isnt' whining. That's the right attitude. Only be reflecting and contemplating ones choices and mistakes can one hope to not repeat them in the future.

Alistair is a whingebag. He's senior to you as a warden. If he really had a problem with your methods he'd have stopped you from cutting the throat of the wounded soldier in the wilds, and would have been calling the shots from there, through the tower at Ostagar, and onwards. He's a coward. He's content to go along to get along and only after the tough calls have been made, does he actually bother to voice his disapproval.

What's worse? Someone with questionable/zero scruples doing what they feel is necessary to carry out a task, because nobody else will do it? Or someone who professes loudly to be morally in the right, who at best, stands aside and does nothing, and at worst aids and abbets the criminal?

Screw Alistair, and his sanctimonious attitude.

Modifié par Iozeph, 13 décembre 2009 - 02:20 .

[Sabriana]

Whether to execute Loghain or not is a gamer's choice, and both sides make excellent points. What gave me pause was the fact that Riordan suggested it. I am a very involved player, and I pay close attention, as well as do a lot of thinking and theorizing, etc.

My PC-girl is a new Warden recruit, basically without guidance and instructions, because Alistair is also new. I got the impression he was the newest of the Grey Wardens. Riordan is a seasoned Warden with a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge about the Grey Wardens, so that is something to consider.

I also dislike Alistair now, and my disillusionment started slowly with his deceptions, like not telling my PC that he's a royal bastard. That's important news, after all, because as my PC so aptly asks: "Doesn't that make you heir to the throne?" Smart PC-girl, dumb Alistair for keeping it under wraps.

HIs reaction when my PC let Jowran out of the dungeon. Blood magic? What? What is the joining then? I remember seeing my PC drinking blood. Using blood to make it possible for them to sense, fight, and whatnot against the darkspawn. Oh, I see. It's not bad blood magic if the Grey Wardens do it. Ok. Got it.

Flipping his lid completely when my PC agrees to let Isolde sacrifice herself. Screaming at her even. Yah, I understand. Isolde started all of this by hiring an illegal mage in the first place. To hide the fact her son was also a budding mage. Pious Isolde. Going against a strict Chantry law, not once but twice. The same Isolde who was the one and only reason that Alistair ended up at the Chantry at age 10, basically removing him from the only father he'd known for purely selfish reasons.

So, is Alistair upset because my PC let the Arlessa go through with her own choice, or is it solely because he once again decries the Blood Magic? I'm not clear, by now I no longer trust his judgment. Isolde did several things against strict Chantry laws, something also considered highly dangerous, like trying to hide a budding mage. And again, blood is blood, no matter who uses it, and for someone who seems to despise the Chantry, he seems to be sticking by their often strange rules a lot. Well, some of their rules. The ones that serve him the best to get his way, I guess.

But, being a good PC-girl, she forgives all that. Perhaps the guy is just overwhelmed with grief and the whining will stop eventually. Some good scenes follow. My PC is a human mage, btw. We get romantic, my girl gets told that he will love her forever, etc. He's still a bit too self-righteous, and a bit "if I don't get my way, I'll throw a fit", but my PC is an understanding and supportive woman. He loves her truly and forever, right? Right.

We reach the landsmeet. Stuff happens, ending with Riordan suggesting Loghain take the joining. My PC ponders, Loghain is, after all, responsible for incredible death and suffering, many times over. Including the death of Duncan and Cailan by running away. Including sending an assassin after the two remaining Wardens. A fact that turned out well for my PC, Zevran is charming, and she .... ah....well, Alistair was a virgin, and Zevran certainly was not. So she more or less dabbled in Zevran as well. Not to mention Zevran is one hell of a fighter if he's going the 'dual weapon' track.

However, Alistair has the mother of all fits. He won't listen to any reason, not even Riordan's. My PC let him have his way, lovers and all, and she sort of understands his reasoning, even though she wonders why Riordan even suggested such a course of action. Well, long story short, in the end, my PC mage gets dumped. Can't get married to a commoner, sorry, says he (love forever, never leave you, remember?) but you can try to persuade me to be my piece on the side. My PC leaves Alistair the half commoner on the spot, and lo and behold, who is there to pick up the pieces. No one other than Zevran. Imagine that. Had I know that, I'd have dumped Alistair for the Elf the minute the option became available.

I reload, and my PC takes Riordan's offer. Alistair. the "we do whatever it takes" loyal Grey Warden stalks off after having the mother of all hissy fits. He never returns, deserting his fellow Grey Wardens and all of Ferelden, because he didn't get his way. Yeah. That's my boy, just storm off and leave. 

I would've understood taking a huge approval loss, and even being dumped on the spot. I would've understood if Alistair was thoroughly disgusted with my PC. But I can't understand or forgive that he abandons everything and everyone. The Wardens, the whole of Ferelden. That's desertion in my eyes. Duncan would have been so proud.

Sorry, Alistair is my least liked companion, sadly, because in the beginning I liked him a lot.

[Iozeph]

Caladhiel wrote...
If you don't like Alistair's sense of humor, or his hairstyle or whatnot, well, that's up to everyone to decide for themselves. But in a character sense, simply putting Alistair down as being whiny and weak-minded is, in my eyes, making it very easy on oneself.

Feelings, like opinions, aren't wrong. They simply are what they are. From a writing standpoint, Sten is an example of a better written character, than Alistair. He has a problem with your leadership style, and actually challenges you for leadership of the group. Doesn't mean he wins, but he puts his money where his mouth is. The trouble with Alistair is that he has the majority of his "feelings" after the fact. When it's no longer called for. It's not well-written. It's simply annoying, because if anyone is making it easy on themselves, it's Alistair(and the game's writers).

My frustration comes about because as players we aren't given that luxury.

Dragon age isn't much of a roleplaying game. It's more an interactive novel with some action fantasy elements where you're choices are severely limited in the interest of shoehorning you to the conclusion of the narrative. As such, it's hard to do anything that the writer(dungeon master) doesn't want you to do. Good roleplaying games are supposed to allow more freedom for the world and the story to react and evolve to the actions and decisions of the players. And while Dragon Age tries to live up to this, it only does so in ways that have absolutely no real effect on the outcome of the story being told.

You're going to partake in the joining. You're going to enlist another three factions to help you. You're going to unite Ferelden. And you're going to confront and kill the Archdemon. The rest is filler for "leveling up."

Examples of things you're not going to do?

You're not going to refuse the joining, and desert. Possibly finding another way to stop the blight.
You're not going to argue with Duncan to make a better case for caution to the king(whose authority is superceded by the Wardens during a blight). Thus avoiding the betrayal at Ostagar.
You're not going to offer to allow the casteless Dwarves, and the City Elves in the alienage, to settle in the lands surrounding Wardens Keep- so that you can form a new community built around promoting equality through service.
You're not going to appoint someone other than Harrowmont, or Bhelen, king of the dwarves, even though you hold the crown and the final decision as to who is crowned king is yours alone.
You're not going to knock out Tamlen, and drag him back to the village, after he refuses to leave the forest ruins.

Why? Because you're not allowed to.

In the interest of "turning all of the tired RPG tropes on their ears",
most of the freedom of choice and consequence has been stripped from
Dragon Age. That isn't good writing, in my opinion. Good writing would be giving you those choices, even if it means you "lose" in the long run. Does anyone here remember the days where you could actually fail a game? Or at least have an "evil" or a "dark" ending beyond simply "dying" and having to reload?

Believe me, I'd either kill or abandon Alistair at the first opportunity, depending on the moral compass of the chatacter I'm playing at the time. Better than being second guessed and judged at every turn. But anyway, sorry to run on, but these are my impressions.

Modifié par Iozeph, 13 décembre 2009 - 03:53 .

[Anti-villain]

Yasu88 wrote...

Maybe it's just me but to all those that think that Alistair is a pathetic wimp simply refuse to see the big picture. Now imagine yourself with your family. Now imagine that your family has been slaughtered due to a single man lets call that man Bob. Now for the past two years Bob has been trying to kill you as well. Now you finally have your chance for vengeance when a judge says that Bob's punishment is not to die but rather become your new family. I'm sorry but I think a lot of people would flat refuse this punishment and if forced would outright snap.

Now look at Alistair, the grey wardens were his family. He considered being a Grey Warden to be a honor. The cream of the crop.  Now Loghain who killed his family and his adoptive father, Duncan, is supposed to become a Grey Warden and join his family.  I completly understand his reasons for snapping. 

I for one would never allow the killer of my father to live. 

I agree.

Alistair is my favourite companion, after Morrigan. I find characters like Leilanna far more annoying than Alistair could ever be, in addition to being utterly useless in combat. Although reading the stolen throne does soften me towards Loghain somewhat, he still deserves to die for what he did to the grey wardens and his heinous crimes afterwards.

[Skellimancer]

frostajulie wrote...

I think that Alistair was unable to be the man he wanted to be. While he preferred the life of a grey warden to that of a templer, Alistair just never had the stones or commitment to do what was necessary as a grey Warden.

Alistair wanted to be good and noble and honorable. Alistair wanted to be the one to sacrifice all for honor. But in the end Alistair was a bastard that had never known family until Duncan. And in the end he couldn't show mercy or compassion and indeed could not be the honorable champion he always aspired to be when these noble intentions came into conflict with his very human nature and his very human desire to slay the man responsible for the death of the only father he had ever known.

This was Alistairs break from the reality he had created for himself. The moment he walked away from Ferelden because his vengeance was denied he learned the truth of his own nature. Unable to live with the guilt he drowned his sorrows in booze. It probably would have been more merciful to kill him at the landsmeet.

I am so glad that pathetic loser had to live with the knife of his own perfidy twisting in his gut for years while my mage got to save Ferelden by being a better man than Alistair ever had any hope of being. And she was a woman.

Very nicely put. Alistair never did grow up..

[Enoch VG]

I'm with the "he's a petulant selfish child" crowd.

It's kind of weird, the way that Bio did their characters. The game is clearly designed to be the Alistair and Morrigan show. The rules system is designed such that melee tanks and crowd-control mages are the most valuable character designs, and they are the only joinable-NPCs who fill each of those roles. (Shale can tank, but recall that Shale was nearly cut and only added in as last-minute DLC after the delay to a fall release.) They give both characters the kind of agruably-witty dialogue that fanboys like to quote to each other. They make them both arguably hawt, and enable all the "romance"-junkies to get their groove on with them. (To me, they were trying too hard to get the player to like these two. All the attempted cleverness and exposed side-boob put me off both of them.) And then they make both characters do things that make them thoroughly unlikable towards the close of the game. Huh?

I agree with Medhia Nox that Morrigan's big reveal was well set up by her character beforehand-- it was only a matter of time before she let us in on what her angle was all along. And the game did give me an appropriate "are you completely insane?!" dialogue response, so that's nice. But Al's hissy fit wasn't well set up. Sure we knew he hated Loghain, but we had no way of knowing that he cared more about killing him in cold blood than he did about his oaths as a GW and the fate of the entire nation he calls home.

Modifié par Enoch VG, 13 décembre 2009 - 04:03 .

[Chemuel]

He doesn't storm off just because "he doesn't get his way." That is a grossly generalized oversight. He leaves because, in his eyes, he has suffered a particularly brutal betrayal, been publicly humiliated and most importantly, been denied his chance to right grievous wrongs and act in line with his sense of justice. Duncan was, in essence, his father. The Grey Wardens were, in essence, his family. Loghain sent an assassin to Arl Eamon. Loghain killed or attempted to kill his family. Loghain is a complete offense to Alistair's sense of what is right. It is rather sanctimonious of the uninvolved to loftily condemn him for not acting in the name of duty, or of being sanctimonious himself, considering his substantial personal involvement in the affairs discussed. Our idle armchair accusations may bolster us in believing that we would have made the perfect choice in his situation, but who here can honestly say they would spare the murderer of their family, hypocrisies of their family aside? Furthermore, at that point in the game, the Hero does not know why Grey Wardens are needed to defeat the archdemon. It is more pragmatic to dispatch a dangerous enemy, who has support, than give him the benefit of the doubt (after he deserted a thousand or so people to their demise), attempted to assassinate you, and engages you tooth and nail at the Landsmeet itself. You expect through one act of mercy (and it can still be construed as an act of vengeance), that this man will be loyal to you? It's preposterous to expect in that situation, despite that Loghain (if you allow him to live) turns out to not slit your throat while you sleep.

I agree with Iozeph's deft analysis of Duncan being hypocritical, and many others' understanding of Alistair as hypocritical. He is certainly a flawed character, even a little pathetic at his worst, but I don't lambaste him for his reaction at the Landsmeet. It was human, within the limits of one psyche. The player, on the other hand, has access to all information and does not have personal involvement (on the scale that Alistair does) with the portrayed events. This makes it too easy to criticize.

Furthermore, Iozeph, while you argue quite incisively, keep in mind that all of the characters only have one crisis moment. The game is designed this way so that your party members are not leaving you left and right. Thus, while real people might have abandoned you many times over for choices you made that they found irreconcilably reprehensible, such as the killing of Connor or Isolde, the party members in the game only have one crisis moment that the writers chose because it was most emblematic of that character. Alistair cannot take command of you after you slit a soldier's throat because that would turn the entire game system on its ear. The player makes every important plot decision in the game; the player is the leader. I think that you are craving a degree of psychological realism that videogames, in their present state, may not be able to fully deliver. Overall, I think Dragon Age did an excellent job of approaching it.

Frostajulie - You are making a judgment about an individual's overall capacity for mercy and compassion based on one extreme situation. Simply because someone does not show mercy in Alistair's situation does not mean that one is overall unmerciful or globally lacks compassion. He likely drowned his sorrows in booze more because the sense of justice and righteousness that drove him were forever cast down and cheapened by the alignment of all whom he cared about behind injustice- that is, letting Loghain live. Furthermore, his background provides him with a substantive amount of sorrows to begin with. The events of the game add to these, especially if he is betrayed by the PC. I saw no evidence to indicate concretely that he lived in a self-created reality (moreso than any of us do).

Modifié par Chemuel, 13 décembre 2009 - 04:23 .

[Iozeph]

Anti-villain wrote...
 
I agree.

Alistair is my favourite companion, after Morrigan. I find characters like Leilanna far more annoying than Alistair could ever be, in addition to being utterly useless in combat. Although reading the stolen throne does soften me towards Loghain somewhat, he still deserves to die for what he did to the grey wardens and his heinous crimes afterwards.

Don't blame Loghaine. Blame the writers. Loghaine did nothing that the writers/Duncan didn't allow him to do. Regardless of who brought them back to Ferelden, The Grey Wardens are not a House Unit. They aren't the Royal Black Watch. They exist to fight back the blight, period. Duncan, being near the end of his life, sensed the Archdemon, and so knew that the blight was real. Instead of forcing the issue with the King, he backed off and allowed himself to be talked over and disregarded like one of the Elven menials. The King then turned around and did the same to Loghaine. Imagine the effort of will it took for Loghaine not to throttle Cailin on the spot. It's not liek they're discussing a game of cards. It's strategy for a battle which could bdetermine the life or death of everyone else in the country. All I could think while waiting for the "grand strategy" cutscene to conclude was, "Here we go again with the sham storytelling."

What is sad is that because of the king's lackadaisical approach to planning, there was every chance that had Loghaine not abandoned the field- had he actually sounded the charge, that they would all have perished, regardless.

[swk3000]

Iozeph, I see where you're coming from. I really do. In fact, in some ways, I actually agree with you. However, I have to say that Chemuel's statement strikes me as spot-on: You're expecting far too much from the game. Technology can only do so much, and without the sort of computer systems that can make things up on the spot (like a DM can in a pen-and-paper RP), you're alway going to have the sorts of issues you bring up. Of course you can't set up your own country around Warden's Keep. It makes sense to you, but from a technological standpoint, you're not even looking at the sheer amount of time and effort you would need to do to effectively create an entirely new storyline, in addition to the one that they already spent so long creating.



Now, I would love to play the sort of game where you can literally choose whatever you want, and have the game adapt the story to your choices while still guiding you towards the final goal. However, the technology to do that sort of game doesn't exist. You're expecting far too much from a simple computer.



As I said, though, I do see where you're coming from. It always bothered me how much of a connection they tried to make you have with a guy you've never really known. To me, Duncan is just some random guy, but they tried to make it seem like you'd become best buddies without actually showing any of it. All he did was show up wherever you were, and save your life in exchange for your promise to become a Grey Warden. There was no personal connection there, but the writers wrote as if there was one. Then there are the personal motivations for each background. Or, more specifically, the lack thereof. After the lost battle, none of the origins has any real reason to continue on in your task. The only reason they do is because, 'Duncan would have done it'.