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Why are We Forced to Disagree with Illusive Man?


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#51
DaJe

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Because everything at the end is forced on you. You can't ask questions, you can't agree or disagree with anything, you can't offer alternatives.

You are supposed to just be passive and watch how the entire franchise goes down the drain, while you are powerless to stop it.

Just sit back, close your eyes and have the disappointment rammed down your throat, but don't question their artistic integrity. There is no explanation and reasoning, no lube. You probably just don't understand the genius behind it because you are too immature to understand a sad ending....or something like that.

Modifié par DaJe, 19 mai 2012 - 06:17 .


#52
HellbirdIV

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Naughty Bear wrote...

I'd say all those deaths was a necessary sacrifice. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages.


Which puts you on par with the psychopaths who say that AIDS can be "cured" by euthanizing everyone who is HIV positive.

Please stop posting now.

#53
Volus Warlord

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You would be dead without the illusive man...

#54
Naughty Bear

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HellbirdIV wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

I'd say all those deaths was a necessary sacrifice. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages.


Which puts you on par with the psychopaths who say that AIDS can be "cured" by euthanizing everyone who is HIV positive.

Please stop posting now.


I'm a psychopath? I'm far from it.

I care about the majority, not the minority. You need to think about the future,, not about now.

In a Galaxy like Mass Effect, you need to think logically, not emotionally. And if was the Illusive Man, i will make damn sure my species does not get walked over and make our voice loud and heard.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 19 mai 2012 - 06:22 .


#55
Kaiser Arian XVII

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Volus Warlord wrote...

You would be dead without the illusive man...


No one understands this ...

I don't believe that he was indoctrinated at the end of ME3.. he had the will to pursuit 'Control' for the sake of humanity and without being influenced by the reapers.

#56
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This was a confrontation that I hoped was more in line till the TIM's indoctrination.


Cerberus Revealed


Shepard struggles up the ramp to an antechamber, which houses a control panel. Above her head is the giant form of the Crucible and a hum of strange energy fills the air. The Citadel arms are open to the void but its vast atmospheric shield separates the chamber from the vacuum of space. An intense, chaotic battle between the Reapers and the allied fleets plays out in the void above. In the background is the image of the Earth, pockmarked by huge fires from the battles on its surface.

Nearer the console stands the motionless figure of Admiral Anderson. He stands rigid with a look of intense frustration and anger on his face. Shepard moves towards him calling his name, but after a few steps she is unable to proceed, an unknown force renders her immobile. She hears footsteps behind her, but is unable to turn towards them. Suddenly the suave, but chilling form of her nemesis the Illusive Man appears as he announces his presence.

Illusive Man: - “I underestimated you Shepard.”

Shepard: “You're controlling us? Let us go and we can stop this war once and for all.”

Illusive Man “I'm sorry I can't let you do that. This is just a demonstration to emphasis my point and to assure me that I have your attention. Still it is fortunate for us old friends to meet at last face to face. We have much to discuss.”

Shepard: “Respected Colleague, What's he talking about Anderson?”

Anderson: “We don't have time for this. Millions are dying by the second. Earth is dying”

Illusive Man “I know but I have a feeling that this device is somehow able to manipulate time as well as mass. We have certainly enough time to at least consider our options. Let's face it commander, neither you nor Anderson are going anywhere.”

“So to start us off I'll answer your question. You have made many assumptions about my organization’s role and myself. These assumptions were completely understandable. You were never in the loop. At first your opposition was naive and charming. It then became more of a concern the more I failed to stop you as you blundered across the galaxy. On more than one occasion you were willing to sacrifice humanity's interests for your alien friends. Or was there another reason? I was beginning to fear that the process of indoctrination had begun to take its hold on you.”

Shepard: - “I am not the one who is indoctrinated. That's absurd; I am here to destroy the Reapers.”

Illusive Man: - “That may be your intention, but I believe you’re making assumptions based on insufficient Intel. You're the soldier and you are well aware of the consequences of that failure. Let's proceed with a debriefing and bring you up to speed on our position”

“I had always warned you not to assume that you know me or that I am not in the fight against the Reapers. That was understandable of course. My story is an illusive one and we were never really introduced. Let's correct that. Here's a little of my personal history”

“My name was Jack Harper and I was a mercenary soldier on Shanxi fighting the Turians in the First Contact War. Of course Shanxi was one of the defining battles of the First Contact War. What you may not know was the Turians were not only looking to wipe out the colony, they were looking for something as well. They were searching for what turned out to be a reaper artefact.”

“The Turian tactics were brutal but effective. I was on the ground in a mercenary group fighting a resistance battle against the Turian ground forces. My team and I captured the Turian general Desolas Arterius. We managed to infiltrate the cave that was the focus of their search. We discovered the device; Ben touched it and was killed. I had indirect contact but was still knocked into a coma.”

“I awoke with visions of future destruction and impending threat. From that moment I was able to comprehend the magnitude of the reaper threat. I could feel the artefact across space, and also I had understanding of languages and writings of the other species, both ancient and modern.”

“After our fleet reinforcements defeated the Turians and a treaty to end the war was negotiated. I was returned to the Alliance. Desolas faced returning to Palaven a defeated general and we all know how the Turian view military failure. He needed the artefact for political reasons at first. The true horror of his intentions came later. He arranged to recover the artefact from Shanxi. Along with Ben, who had somehow been resurrected and improved with augmentations. There were a number of Turians who had also been augmented. They would not be separated from the artefact.”

“We chased him across the galaxy via Illium and were again captured. Desolas returned the artefact to Palaven. He set it in an ancient temple in an attempt to create an unstoppable Turian army of Meta Turians, as he called them. We know them better as Marauders.”

“He couldn't sense or understand that the artefact served nothing but itself. He wasn't aware of what the process of indoctrination and reaping was truly about. He started the process, but fortunately I was able to convince Saren Arterius of the dangers and we managed to stop the process, and destroy the artefact. Otherwise Palaven would have been a planet of Marauders in a very short time.”

“I recognized how ill prepared humanity was for the Reapers and for the rest of the Galaxy races. My exposure to the Turian and Asari was particularly enlightening as I could sense their duplicity and suspicion of humans. With or without the Reapers humanity was in a precarious position. With no allies and few resources Humanity had stumbled into a galaxy of beings with far superior technology, biology, military and political power. The Alliance couldn't grow as a counter to any aggression and our technological and scientific progress was carefully scrutinized. If humanity’s future were to be anything other than a client race to one of the other races, there would have to be alternatives in place. You consider me the head of Cerberus. You're partly correct. Are you aware of Greek mythology, Shepard?”

Shepard “What does Greek Mythology have to do with anything?”

Illusive Man “Possibly more than you know. Cerberus was the Beast that Guarded Humanity from The Gates of Hell. In description, both in mythology so as in reality, he is a beast of 3 heads. I'll ask Admiral Anderson to carry on the next part of your debriefing. You may be more convinced with his opinion. Anderson?”

Anderson. “I'm sorry I couldn't tell you before. Cerberus was the blackest of black ops, but it was still Alliance. There are 2 other heads to the Cerberus beast other than the Illusive Man. The original 3 were Ashley's father, General Williams, Udina and The Illusive man. General Williams was tasked with Military. He was replaced by Admiral Hackett after his retire, but continued operating in the traverse colonies. Udina was citadel politics. While the Illusive man took it upon himself to engage in the darker side of the operation.”

“I was one of the teeth of the Cerberus beast. It was hoped that in my Spectre role I could further humanity's interests. As you know Saren ensured I was unsuccessful in that goal. I suspect that somehow Saren discovered a slim connection between Cerberus and myself and used this in his report to discredit me. You were chosen to be my protégé. To avoid any connection at all, we chose not to inform even you. You were Alliance Military that was enough. We were able to influence events and let you loose.”

Shepard: “How can you justify the reports of Terrorism, unethical and inhumane experiments on both aliens and humans? Human beings engineered and processed by you under the illusion of Sanctuary. I could identify my enemies pretty easily. They were husks wearing Cerberus badges in many occasions. How could the Alliance allow those types of operations to happen? He's insane and out of control. He should have been stopped years ago.”

Illusive Man: “I had to start the preparation of our defences. We had weaker military strength than any of the other races. No Biotics and vastly inferior scientific understanding and technology. Everything I have done was in preparation of the battles ahead. Also there was the need for every able person to be able to fight effectively against the Reapers. So we improved those suitable and equipped them. Desperate times dictate ruthless measures. It's the nature of the beast in this galaxy Shepard.”

Shepard “You're either indoctrinated or you're insane. I was right on the collector base in saying you would stop at nothing for in your desire to control and dominate.”

Illusive Man “You of all people should know how wrong that assumption is. I rebuilt you without a control chip after all. Although there have been many times I questioned my decision. I questioned myself when you decided to destroy the collector base. Your decision to destroy the only real understanding of how the reapers are able to turn our own people against us forced me to use the only alternative open to me.”

Shepard: It was monstrous, hundreds of thousands of people died in that base.

Illusive Man: “And did your destruction of that base bring a single person back to life? No, it didn't. Instead, your decision made that sacrifice worthless and they died in vain. Your decision to destroy the only real understanding of how the reapers are able to turn our own people against us forced me to use the only alternative open to me. We had to disable that signal somehow. To do so would be of enormous benefit against the reapers. It was possibly the only effective one that we could have. That base was a priceless asset and valuable Intel. Humans appear to have slightly more resistance to Indoctrination. We needed to understand and possibly counteract this.”

Shepard “How can you be so sure that humans have more resistance?”

Illusive Man “From my own personal experience. Both my own and what I have witnessed. My friend, Ben had direct exposure to a Reaper Indoctrination device. He then lived for a lengthy period of time, being augmented and in close proximity to the device. The Turians showed an almost instant conversion and were essentially fully indoctrinated. Despite having all the exposure to the Reaper Device, we were still able to engage with him enough for him to break the devices hold for some moments. Those moments allowed us to escape and destroy the device. Only the love of an Asari Matriarch for her child has ever had the ability to match this feat.”

“Do you consider yourself Indoctrinated Shepard? You've had the most contact with Reaper technology than any other being, after all. There were the missions on the derelict reaper and the Collector Base. Ask yourself how exposed you had been to the Reaper artefact you destroyed along with the mass relay. Ask yourself if I was right to fear the worst.”

Shepard: “No I consider you to be. Your warped ambition to control the galaxy has been warped by the Reapers to their ends. We should be fighting together not each other!

Illusive Man: “I agree. And can you're noble desire to save the galaxy cannot be manipulated in the same way? Shepard, don't insult either of our intelligence with that assumption”

“What if you are indoctrinated? I have a little faith in myself. I took great care to keep a distance between myself and any reaper tech. after all I had other assets to call upon. You, on the other hand. Can you be so sure of yourself? Do you know what happened in those 48 hours you were unconscious after the Object struck you? My recovery from a similar experience was in a shuttle far removed from the effects of indoctrination. Yours, in contrast, was in a science facility in the control of Indoctrinated scientists and a fully operational Reaper Device.”

“So let us continue our debriefing. So either one of us could be indoctrinated. Maybe it all comes down to what we intend to do about the reapers. You believe in destroying the Reapers Shepard. I ask you have you ever thought about the consequences. Is it your sense of honour or your choices in friends still prevent you from seeing the galaxy as it truly is? Perhaps we should go over those, shall we?”

“You see I chose your friends and crewmembers to be special representatives of their species. Maybe we should discuss the matter in more detail.”

“Let us discuss the Turians, since you assume they are at the root of my First Contact paranoia. I hope your experiences with them were more cordial than mine. Pleasant bunch aren't they. That bomb was an especially nice touch. Truly ruthless when the chips are down.”

“I was the first Human ever to land on Palaven and return. I saw first hand how a combination of military tradition and hysteria could be manipulated. I saw what affect that defeat caused on Palaven, Shepard. I witnessed thousands of Turians volunteering themselves, and their children to be improved soldiers. That wasn't due to the Reaper Artefact. It was due to the Turian's own psychology. First Contact left major scars on both sides, Shepard. Humanity inflected the first major victory on a Turian fleet. They haven't forgotten that. Your friend Garrus is not like most Turians. Don't let your sense of comradeship and honour cloud your eyes to the attitudes the majority of Turians have. The sight of one Turian Dreadnought within 50 light years of Sol should give anyone pause. And now there's the whole fleet camped on the doorstep.”

“Now let us discuss the Salarians. I hope your travels with the good Doctor provided you with an insight into the species. He was specifically chosen as an illustration of the almost insane curiosity of the species. Secondary he was STG, regardless of what he told you. Salarian's don't usually retire and live contented and productive lives. Dr Solus was a slightly more extreme example.”

“Do you recall your discovery of the human test subject on Kuchamtka? Miranda was always very efficient in her reporting. You had an interesting conversation with the good doctor on the subject. Also their little retreat in Sur'Kesh with its pleasant views of waterfalls and laboratories all full of biological weapons. Cerberus of course did much the same thing, but without the vistas. We had to hide our research, while the Salarians were able to operate almost at will and with impunity.”

“They have already experimented on humans. The good doctor was quite vocal on his knowledge of human physiology and genetics. They tolerate no challenge to their scientific dominance of other species. They are fatalistic enough to recognize that is their major weapon. Also let us not forget the genophage. Your friend Wrex was no doubt very vocal about Salarian gratitude. I hope you recognize how dangerous and ruthless they are. I wouldn't doubt for a second that there is a human genophage somewhere in development”

“That brings me to the Krogan. Personally would have taken the Dallatrass's offer, but you always put your crews loyalties first. I believe it is unfortunate that your only real exposure to the breed was via a female mystic, a mutant and a clone. Never forget the lessons of history. Krogan may be long-lived but nowhere near long enough to escape evolution. Any hopes of integration lie with your friends Wrex & Eve's continued good health. You only really helped the Krogan. That is a situation that made a dark and dangerous galaxy, a lot more dangerous.”

“We should now discuss the Rachni. There's only one queen at present. Twice you've saved her life, but never forget your Prothean friend's warning. They were specially bred for their cunning and for war. They are a fascinating species, possibly the oldest in the galaxy. They survived the Prothean extinction and have evolved over 50,000 years. Like Saren, I wanted to study and use the Rachni. Cerberus also had major investment in Binary Helix and I was well aware of the research on Noveria. Twice you failed to remove that threat and once you have been burned. It remains to be seen how the second chance you extended them works out.”

“I would like to discuss the Asari & the Protheans together if I may. Fascinating in their beauty, as you will no doubt confess. Please I must inquire. How is the lovely Dr T'Soni?”

Shepard: “She wouldn't care for me to acknowledge your request.”

Illusive Man “Pity she should feel that way about her most recent sponsor. I had to take out her out of her little Shadow Broker Empire and get her into the Mars archive. She was a good information broker, but not good enough. The matriarchs had her under watch the whole time. She was still a baby, but the best Prothean mind in the galaxy until your friend Javik appeared. And it is he and any possible relationship he may have in the Asari's future that really concerns me. You're a colony kid aren't you Shepard?”

Shepard “You already know that, so why ask?”

Illusive Man “You didn't experience the chaos on Earth during First Contact. There had already been an enormous debate when we first discovered the Mass Relays. What would we discover? And what would come through? Curiosity almost killed us. The Turians were bad, but their discovery created an enormous psychic shock all over Earth. Most major religious belief didn't survive and society was on the verge of collapse. It was touch and go, but the ferocity of the Turians galvanized humanity to respond. We can be fast to react to change, possibly a benefit of our relatively short life spans. Asari don't have that adaptability.”

At present Thessia is almost destroyed and Asari civilization almost extinct. They will have to fight to survive, let alone recapture any of their former glory. Shepard, I must ask. Was the temple in Thessia as illuminating for you as it was for me?

Shepard. “Are you asking about the Prothean VI or your pet assassin? The VI confirmed that he was indoctrinated.”

Illusive Man “ Yes I know. His return trips to sanctuary and to my base were confirmation of that. He led you and the Reapers right to me. You know the rest. It was some upgrades used in his reconstruction had hidden reaper tech. Unfortunately we were denied the data from EDI, and you kept your pet Geth so we were not fully aware about the true sophistication of Reaper Indoctrination. Neither you nor I have any of that tech fitted I assure you.”

“But we digress. When major cataclysm hits a civilization, its common for the more primitive beliefs that survive the transition. Sophistication, Art and Philosophy all take second place in a post-apocalyptic landscape. The Asari's Athene belief is their oldest and is essentially Prothean Worship. Now you have Javik a virtual living god. The prospect of him somehow having influence on the Asari is terrifying. That is almost as terrifying a prospect as the reapers.”

“What is his purpose after you destroy the reapers? Does he intend to retire to the graves of his comrades? Or to father a race of Asari to reclaim both races former status? A planet full of willing, blue concubines is enticing isn't it Shepard? Remember how concerned the Asari were about the Ardhat Yakshi. I recruited Samara to introduce you to them, as no Asari would ever admit their existence. For all their culture the Asari are as duplicitous as any society. They have their secrets and their interests. One Ardhat Yakshi is bad enough. A whole army of them would be a force of nature, possibly unstoppable.”

“Now we have the Quarians and the Geth. Whatever possessed you to unite them is something I'll never understand, either one on its own are bad enough. Quarians were regarded as locusts in their travels. Whole sectors would be stripped of resources very efficiently. Also as you have come to discover they can be very aggressive and volatile. Now you've given them control of the largest and most advanced fleet in the galaxy.”

“The Geth will always be an enigma and I believe, like all AI a threat to organics. Remember how relatively easy it was for you to reprogram the heretics. Just a minor check-sum changed the whole programming. It could so easily change again. EMP radiation, programming error or some synthetic evolutionary process we can't imagine might spell disaster for all organic life. Yes the Geth may be the direst threat if it wasn't for your decision to save both races.”

“Had you forgotten Project Overlord or the Reapers themselves when you made your decision? A hybrid AI might have even more dire consequences thank an AI. That was almost Cerberus's most costly mistake and I closed that facility down when I discovered the full story of how close we had come to disaster.”

Shepard: “Dr Archer informed me differently. He said he closed the facility down.”

Illusive Man. “Unless you witnessed him take similar steps to those of your friend Subject Zero on Pragia, then I would doubt his word if I were you. I wanted the work continued, but not on an AI or any hybrid. We wanted to understand Geth communication and how the Reapers were able to hack into them so easily. Dr Archer's ambition, combined with stress drove him to take unnecessary levels of risk and his need for scientific glory drove his experiments in a totally unintended direction.”

“So now we have millions of Quarian and Geth all united. Already the process of augmentation has begun with Geth adapting Quarian physiology. Where will that end is of course uncertain. You could destroy the reapers only to find them replaced with some other hybrid race that may have similar opinions on organic life.”

Shepard. “You make a lot of assumptions. These races are our allies. They recognize the Reapers are the real threat. You don't appear to acknowledge that, as you should.”

Illusive Man “They are allies, but only of convenience. I give them little credit for their decision to ally with us and assist our struggle. Their own survival makes that decision imperative. All the races seemed more concerned with their own essentially petty conflicts to even acknowledge your warnings of the Reapers for too long. I admit I thought the prospect of any of the other races ever uniting was a slim one. It was only through your efforts that this was possible.”

“What you achieved was truly remarkable and only vindicates my decision to bring you back to us. Still you are only human, and one uniting figurehead doesn't make for strong alliances. Have you asked yourself, what happens if you are successful in your goal of destroying the Reapers?”

Shepard “I have no time for speculation or conjecture.”

Illusive Man “Ah it's a pity we didn't involve you in the more strategic or political elements of the equation. You were our spearhead, and your skills were honed for that purpose. Never the less, Let us not forget the lessons of History. The council races have always acted ruthlessly to perceived threats. The Rachni were almost made extinct, the Genophage, even Humanity's not too distant past with the Turians.”

“Humanity is already regarded as being aggressive and ambitious by the council races, regardless of our acknowledged presence on the council. That was nothing but an effort to contain and control us. Anderson will testify to the truth behind that statement. Your decision to appoint a warrior and not a politician to be humanity's first representative wasn't entirely welcomed with open arms and minds.”

Anderson “He's telling the truth to a point Shepard. But this is pointless. The Reapers are the threat, not the council or some future hybrid AI. They have to be stopped “

Illusive Man “I agree wholeheartedly in them being stopped but not destroyed. I've presented my argument as best I can Shepard. These are the fears that have haunted me ever since the discovery of the Charon Relay. Like you Shepard I have had full knowledge of the Reapers and have had to make the sacrifices accordingly. If you must make judgment on me, then judge my motivations. Not my actions. Or rather, take a look at your own actions. If you are successful in destroying the Reaper threat YOU now becomes the de facto most powerful force in the galaxy. With Power comes responsibility and awe, but those without that power could soon lose that awe and learn fear.”

“Yes the other races would be grateful, for a time. But history can quickly forget its heroes after their purpose is served. They can become irrelevant at best. Also, They can just as easily be viewed as a threat. They may follow you Shepard, but after that? Humans have short life spans. To an Asari or a Krogan, we are like Mayflies burning brightly in the night. To an Immortal Geth or AI, a single human lifetime might be too brief to acknowledge.”

“The question what happens when she's gone must surely arise in the near future. I do believe the other races will each formulate their own answers pretty quickly and will act, as they have always done, with ruthless calculated ferocity. All species, should they survive, will hope to capitalize their position as quickly as possible. In a fight for survival, everything alien is a threat to your existence. The perception of possible threats and the fear they bring can be overwhelming and rash decisions made.”

Shepard “I'm sorry but I can't enslave a sentient race to my will.”

Illusive Man “And destruction is a lesser evil? You aren't enslaving another race. They are essentially machines that have one discernible pattern, one of wholesale and repeated extinction. If you can control this process Use their technology to advance humanity and the rest of the galaxy if you can. They are obviously constructs, but we have no clue of who constructed them. That is something that must be answered and you couldn't do that if you destroy the reapers. Are there even larger dangers, as yet unknown in this galaxy, or in the dark reaches beyond? Only the Reapers hold any answer.”

“Shepard in conclusion, if you are still worried that my desire to control the reapers is a desire for dominance, I hope it hasn't escaped your attention that at any time I could have left you and Anderson and used the console myself.”

Shepard: “Why didn't you?”

Illusive Man “Why I didn't is both logical and personal. The logical answer is that if I, as Cerberus Incarnate were to control the Reapers, you can safely assume that a state of war would continue. I would never expect to be accepted by the other races. In light of my actions, you may find it hard to believe that I do believe humanity needs the other races to build this next cycle. All my preparations and machinations were to fight the Reapers and to Protect Humanity. Not dominate the galaxy. I wanted to kick-start the processes that would enable humanity to catch up with the other races.”

“My personal answer is I have fought this fight long enough and have no wish to continue, my soul was damaged by the Reaper Artefact and I've willingly traded it and made countless sacrifices multiple times since then. I had no other choice. Only you can accept what that entails.”

“But you Shepard have done the impossible. You have united the galaxy and brought peace where before there was only conflict. You're an Icon, not only for humanity and the galactic races of today. But for all the countless races that have perished to the Reapers in the past. Only you could control the Reapers and keep the galaxy united. I knew that, and that was why I resurrected you. That was my miracle and contribution to the galaxy. The rest was all your doing. Let us retire to my ship, Admiral. Shepard I believe needs some space to clear her head.”

Shepard “Wait you have a ship. The Normandy's the fastest and quietest ship in the galaxy.”

Illusive man: “Sorry to disappoint you Shepard. I managed to save a few resources for my own use and had a small craft of my own built.”

Shepard “Have you named her? Let me guess Shadow or Wraith or something similar.”

Illusive Man “No Shepard She's called Valkyrie. I always thought there might come a time when I needed to travel on swifter wings than a steed of War. Now Commander, you have a job to do. The reapers must be stopped and you have a choice to make. Now what is that phrase that Miranda always used? Ah Yes No Pressure”

Anderson and the Illusive man walk toward an opening in the wall. Shepard limps towards the console, which glows in a soft light.

The Choice

She reaches out and tries to manipulate the console. She experiences a severe jolt as a chorus of disembodied voices of many races rises in her head. Human, Asari, Salarian, Turian, Krogan, Prothean, Quarian, Geth and countless other unrecognised voices cry out in fear and pain. Her knees buckle as the roar overwhelms her senses. Suddenly the roar subsides as the unmistakable voice of the Reaper Harbinger takes centre stage.

Harbinger: "You have accidentally stumbled onto the means of our destruction, Shepard. You may think your victory is assured. But our fate, and your doom is in your hands."

Shepard cries out: "You're in my head?" She struggles to her feet and manipulates the controls again

Harbinger "Yes Shepard, but I cannot influence you as I wish. The device prevents that and we must answer to it."

Sheppard "What Do you mean?"

Harbinger "You ask questions to which the answers are beyond your reasoning. Organics were a mistake, a random mutation, with no past and no future. You live for the moment with no conception of the consequences for your actions. Your are Chaos and we have stood as sentinels against chaos."

Shepard "But what you cause is Chaos. How can repeated cycles of total destruction be order? I dispute that you have any other reason other than basic survival for your harvesting. We're your prey which you harvest and use as fuel for your own depraved existence, you are demons only and you must be stopped. Your existence exorcised from the galaxy." Shepard braces herself at the controls.

Harbinger: "So be it. You have the choice. You could ascend and join with us where you will find the answers to all your questions and more. Or you choose to attempt to control or destroy us, but you should not assume you will succeed."

Shepard laughs derisively. . "I recognize that tone. Reaper or Not you do know fear. You're bluffing and you're even worse at it than Vega. I think it's time for me to call you."

Her voice rising in a shout of triumph and defiance "I could never join you. Your comrade Nazara tricked Saren with that false promise. The question is destruction or control. I think you fear both equally. Also I believe you may not know the answers I seek. You are right I don't know the consequences or the future. But I do know the past, and your part in it."

She makes her choice and manipulates the control. A ball of energy bursts from the crucible in a light brighter than a star. The Citadel trembles as a violent shock wave of concussive energy pulses from the giant station striking reaper and allied ships alike. The ball coalesces into a beam, which streaks out from the tip of the crucible. Each reaper it strikes falls silent and motionless, all systems knocked instantaneously off-line. Shepard is knocked back from the controls and falls unconscious. Anderson and the Illusive Man are also knocked from their feet. Seeing the prone figure of Shepard, the Illusive Man cries out

Illusive man: "Come on Anderson, quickly we have to get Shepard out of here."

They rush to the Commander's body and gently but with haste lift and carry her to the open portal. Outside the portal there is a Cerberus ship docked, with engines fired up. A couple of Cerberus phantoms run from an open doorway and help the struggling pair to carry the commander into the ship. A strange sensation of pressure causes Anderson to look back and he sees the arms of the citadel start to close.

Anderson "Quick get us out of here the Citadel's arms are closing".

The Illusive man raises his voice. "Set course for Alliance Medical Headquarters all engines maximum power."

The sleek elegant ship surges forward and streaks from the citadel

Anderson "I hope this ship is as fast as it looks. You're flying into a battle zone with Cerberus colours. We'll be spotted for sure."

Illusive Man: "You may be wrong there. Engage full spectrum cloak he calls to the phantom pilot."

Anderson: "She looks familiar. Wait she's not human, she's an AI."

Illusive Man "Yes she may be recognizable to you. She is EDI's younger sister you may say, and she is this ship. Even your fine Mr Morreau would struggle to handle this ship as efficiently."

Anderson: "I wouldn't let him hear you say that. You would hurt his feelings and he's Shepard's crew. She might take badly to that."

Modifié par alleyd, 19 mai 2012 - 09:21 .


#57
Sebby

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For same reasons the Geth and Rachni are "lol indoctrinated", Bioware doesn't give a damn about player choice and wants to cut corners.

#58
Kajan451

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Naughty Bear wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

I'd say all those deaths was a necessary sacrifice. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages.


Which puts you on par with the psychopaths who say that AIDS can be "cured" by euthanizing everyone who is HIV positive.

Please stop posting now.


I'm a psychopath? I'm far from it.

I care about the majority, not the minority. You need to think about the future,, not about now.

In a Galaxy like Mass Effect, you need to think logically, not emotionally. And if was the Illusive Man, i will make damn sure my species does not get walked over and make our voice loud and heard.


Logic =/= Lack of Humanity and Morals
Logic =/= Lack of Human/Species Rights

Sorry, you are a psychopath (if thats your definition for it). Dominate or be Dominated? Thats the most retarded thing i ever heard. And the notion of killing people, tormenting them and experimenting on them to be good for humanity is just sickening.

Its by the way the same Mindset Dr Mengele gave as reason for experimenting on Jews, Political Enemies and Gypsis. The good for the "superior part of mankind" was enough for them to stick people into freezing cold water until they died, in an attempt to find out the effects on the human body.

His research has yielded us with artic survival suits that have saved thousands of life. That does NOT justfy tormenting people to death by freezing them in cold water.

His allies in the NSDAP and Thule Society also believed that if you'd kill everyone with a diability, you can actually eradicate it from the genpool to have people born blind. Natural Selection. Their reason was that it will eventually strengthen the human race.

Cerberus basically did the same thing. They forced people they perceived to be a threat to them, including Admirals of the human Navy, to torture and experiment them to death. They called in refugees and experimented on them for the "common good". Cerberus isn't much different from the members of the Thule Society. Actually not different at all. The differance between Thule and Cerberus would be that Thule was about superiority of Blue Eyes, Blond people.. while Cerberus simply replaced that with "All humans", since they got Aliens to "dominate".

Modifié par Kajan451, 19 mai 2012 - 07:03 .


#59
Naughty Bear

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Kajan451 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

I'd say all those deaths was a necessary sacrifice. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages.


Which puts you on par with the psychopaths who say that AIDS can be "cured" by euthanizing everyone who is HIV positive.

Please stop posting now.


I'm a psychopath? I'm far from it.

I care about the majority, not the minority. You need to think about the future,, not about now.

In a Galaxy like Mass Effect, you need to think logically, not emotionally. And if was the Illusive Man, i will make damn sure my species does not get walked over and make our voice loud and heard.


Logic =/= Lack of Humanity and Morals
Logic =/= Lack of Human/Species Rights

Sorry, you are a psychopath (if thats your definition for it). Dominate or be Dominated? Thats the most retarded thing i ever heard. And the notion of killing people, tormenting them and experimenting on them to be good for humanity is just sickening.

Its by the way the same Mindset Dr Mengele gave as reason for experimenting on Jews, Political Enemies and Gypsis. The good for the "superior part of mankind" was enough for them to stick people into freezing cold water until they died, in an attempt to find out the effects on the human body.

His research has yielded us with artic survival suits that have saved thousands of life. That does NOT justfy tormenting people to death by freezing them in cold water.

His allies in the NSDAP and Thule Society also believed that if you'd kill everyone with a diability, you can actually eradicate it from the genpool to have people born blind. Natural Selection. Their reason was that it will eventually strengthen the human race.

Cerberus basically did the same thing. They forced people they perceived to be a threat to them, including Admirals of the human Navy, to torture and experiment them to death. They called in refugees and experimented on them for the "common good". Cerberus isn't much different from the members of the Thule Society. Actually not different at all. The differance between Thule and Cerberus would be that Thule was about superiority of Blue Eyes, Blond people.. while Cerberus simply replaced that with "All humans", since they got Aliens to "dominate".


Yeah, ok. I'm a psychopath sure.

I just love drop kicking puppies. Can't get enough of it, i enjoy competing with others on how far we can punt one.

10 points if the puppy hits a car. 50 points if it's moving.

I am just as capable of showing genuine emotion, altruism, guilt and empathy just like you.  And just like everyone else, i have my weaknessess, i have my fears and i have my limitations.

If i saw puppies being thrown into a river i would cry, if my dog died in front of me, i would cry, if my family dies before me i would cry.

If i saw someone injured i would help, if i saw someone drowning in a frozen lake i would risk my life to save the victim. I am far from a psychopath.

And unlike Cerberus, i actually disagreed with using refugees as soldiers, luring good soldiers into a Thresher Maw nest and using biotics kids for test subjects.

The ****'s were monsters. Torturing innocents just because they have different religious views, sexual preferences, race, age and gender. I want Humanity to be together, not agaisnt each other, diversity is good.

Don't you even dare to compare me to the ****'s, You know nothing of me, don't presume you do.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 19 mai 2012 - 07:36 .


#60
Red Panda

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It's so Shepard can play devil's advocate.

#61
chengthao

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Kajan451 wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

I'd say all those deaths was a necessary sacrifice. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages.


Which puts you on par with the psychopaths who say that AIDS can be "cured" by euthanizing everyone who is HIV positive.

Please stop posting now.


I'm a psychopath? I'm far from it.

I care about the majority, not the minority. You need to think about the future,, not about now.

In a Galaxy like Mass Effect, you need to think logically, not emotionally. And if was the Illusive Man, i will make damn sure my species does not get walked over and make our voice loud and heard.


Logic =/= Lack of Humanity and Morals
Logic =/= Lack of Human/Species Rights

Sorry, you are a psychopath (if thats your definition for it). Dominate or be Dominated? Thats the most retarded thing i ever heard. And the notion of killing people, tormenting them and experimenting on them to be good for humanity is just sickening.

Its by the way the same Mindset Dr Mengele gave as reason for experimenting on Jews, Political Enemies and Gypsis. The good for the "superior part of mankind" was enough for them to stick people into freezing cold water until they died, in an attempt to find out the effects on the human body.

His research has yielded us with artic survival suits that have saved thousands of life. That does NOT justfy tormenting people to death by freezing them in cold water.

His allies in the NSDAP and Thule Society also believed that if you'd kill everyone with a diability, you can actually eradicate it from the genpool to have people born blind. Natural Selection. Their reason was that it will eventually strengthen the human race.

Cerberus basically did the same thing. They forced people they perceived to be a threat to them, including Admirals of the human Navy, to torture and experiment them to death. They called in refugees and experimented on them for the "common good". Cerberus isn't much different from the members of the Thule Society. Actually not different at all. The differance between Thule and Cerberus would be that Thule was about superiority of Blue Eyes, Blond people.. while Cerberus simply replaced that with "All humans", since they got Aliens to "dominate".


i don't think you understand his/her's arguement

BW wrote/made Cerberus into pure evil villians but in ME2 this counters the arguement (Miranda tells Shepard what they did and that they stopped after they found out how "evil" their plans were)

BW essentially retconned Cerberus from being pro-human to being all-around evil

Cerberus is simply a casualty of BW's bad writing

#62
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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Probably something to do with the fact that Cerberus/TIM were the worst-written part of ME3 after the ending, I suspect.

Seboist wrote...

For same reasons the Geth and Rachni are "lol indoctrinated", Bioware doesn't give a damn about player choice and wants to cut corners.

You know, if they'd just not separated the geth between "heretics" and "true geth" in ME2, making them all being under Reaper control in ME3 would have made a lot more sense. They screwed themselves over for ME3 in ME2 in a lot of ways (like introducing so many new characters when they should have known it would be impossible to write substantial parts for all of them in the next game).

Modifié par Cthulhu42, 19 mai 2012 - 08:14 .


#63
napushenko

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No it isnt. You think they didnt plan for Ceberus to be the enemy from game 1 ? That just like, happened out of the blue ?

They never stoped torturing people when you worked for / with them too. You didnt saw it, and what you did saw was couple of "rogue" (yeah..ofcourse) projects which responeded to cerberus. Why doesnt anyone take reapers into account and that they are unstoppable.  Invasion of galaxy is in full swing. 
Illusive Man had to hurry up his projects which were in plan from ME 1. Thus the killings and disregard for regulations and ramifications. All or nothing.

Remember the disapointment or satisfaction when you gave  the human reaper to Illusive Man ? What do you think he used it for ? pet ? 
Did someone listened to logs and journals of Mirandas dad. CONTROLing husks on their own. They actually managed to reverse engineer reaper tech. Something that nobody ever done before. They could maybe control reapers. 


Do someones remember reputation Cerberus had even before ME 2 ? And what about Miranda.


"BW wrote/made Cerberus into pure evil villians but in ME2 this counters the arguement (Miranda tells Shepard what they did and that they stopped after they found out how "evil" their plans were)"

This doesnt counter anything. Please explain.. if you want

And i love how the story about Cerberus unfolded throughout all 3 parts. Its stupid to assume the cerberus in ME 3 was completely different and had different motivations then Cerberus in 2 or 1 

Modifié par napushenko, 19 mai 2012 - 08:11 .


#64
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napushenko wrote...

No it isnt. You think they didnt plan for Ceberus to be the enemy from game 1 ? That just like, happened out of the blue ?

That's exactly what I think. I don't have a source for you, but I've heard that Cerberus was not originally intended to be a major factor in future games when ME1 was made.

#65
napushenko

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alleyd wrote...

This was a confrontation that I hoped was more in line till the TIM's indoctrination.


Cerberus Revealed




Cool Fan-Fic. Liked the first part, especially about Turian dreads in sol system. Gotta read it all later when i have time 

#66
napushenko

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

napushenko wrote...

No it isnt. You think they didnt plan for Ceberus to be the enemy from game 1 ? That just like, happened out of the blue ?

That's exactly what I think. I don't have a source for you, but I've heard that Cerberus was not originally intended to be a major factor in future games when ME1 was made.


Think what youve heard is wrong considering how much of prime time they gave to Cerberus in ME 1 and subsequent comics till the ME 2 

And what exactly you didnt like about Cerberus in ME 3. That they were a villains ? Sorry, but seems they were "the villains" all along. Or maybe not ? Remember what Shepard says at the end. 
The Illusive Man was right  

#67
HellbirdIV

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Far as I can tell, they didn't know where Mass Effect would go when they completed the first game - it's what we call a "surprise hit", meaning that they had to come up with a whole new story for Mass Effect 2 to lead into 3.

So, they took Cerberus, a break-out group that caught fan's attention and made them interested - a villainous group of extreme "Renegade" characters with a very pro-Human attitude that, if viewed a certain way, could seem respectable enough for Shepard to work with them. They retconned Cerberus from a failed Alliance Black Op into something much bigger (and older, almost as old as the Alliance itself) and forced you to cooperate with them wether you liked to or not - because that, sadly, was Shepard's predicament in that game.

With Pragia and the character of Jack, they made a point to show that while Cerberus plays nice with you, they're still evil bastards. The books especially show this, and it culminates in the Illusive Man's outburst at Shepard if you choose to destroy the Collector base - hinting that for all his speeches about how Cerberus is misunderstood, patriotic and secretly heroic, he's actually just full of sh*t.

I have no problems with Cerberus being evil in ME3, because it is a rough wake-up call to anyone who sympathized with them because of ME2 - They tricked you, and they screwed you, and they tried to use you. They've shown their true colors and its time to put 'em down hard like the mad dog Cerberus has always been.

#68
napushenko

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Maybe youre right about the first part, but story was largely in play even before ME 2. Dont understand why people act so surprised really.

"
 They tricked you, and they screwed you, and they tried to use you " 
Maybe its this ? People dont like to be tricked. So it must be that bioware sucks. 


Agree with all what you said. . But i wouldnt just put them on a evil side. They had a goal which could be viewed as betterment for humanity and salvation for the galaxy. Precise point is that no one beside him would either have means or will to try it. Reapers are killing millions day by day. To the machiavellistic man as tim, whats one more million to go by his hand if it can save the galaxy and all its races from extinction.

Controlling reapers was a plus.

Still not clear if he was actually indoctrinated. If what we saw with starchild is all what we sawed, meaning, it was no secret ploy by king of the reapers to screw with out mind, then actually, he was right and it was maybe the best possible way to save the galaxy.

Im not saying Shepard, either Paragon / Renegade would go along with TIM after he saw the methods they use. He has his goal. We have ours. We even tried to make up with him but you cant make peace between two diametrically opposed groups.  
Thats why youre forced to disagree with Illusive Man, because Shepard simply isnt about killing millions to save billions. 

And thats why i have such a problem with DLC "Arrival" 

Modifié par napushenko, 19 mai 2012 - 08:40 .


#69
Mr.House

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Same reason you where forced to join Cerberus in ME2 right at the start instead of going right to the Council. ME series has always been linear and never giving true you freedom at all. You want that, go play a Bethesda game.

#70
HellbirdIV

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napushenko wrote...

Thats why youre forced to disagree with Illusive Man, because Shepard simply isnt about killing millions to save billions. 

And thats why i have such a problem with DLC "Arrival" 


To be fair, in Arrival you are given the option to protest against the plan and even to try and warn the colony that sh*t is about to go down, but your communications are blocked. Maybe I only saw that because I'm naturally predisposed towards Paragoning everything I touch, but I got the impression Shepard was really against the plan because the plan was kind of terrible.

#71
chengthao

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napushenko wrote...

"BW wrote/made Cerberus into pure evil villians but in ME2 this counters the arguement (Miranda tells Shepard what they did and that they stopped after they found out how "evil" their plans were)"

This doesnt counter anything. Please explain.. if you want


you do know ME2 came out before ME3, right?

your entire arguement is based on what Cerberus did in ME3 which came out after ME2 . . . . they became the main villians and all these evil experiments were added in to ME3 not continued from ME2

from the experiments on Jack to trying to control the Rachni, all of it was stopped by TIM when he found out how "evil" these operations were

#72
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Just like Synthesis is Saren idea and Shepard was railroad againts the idea in ME1.

#73
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Katamariguy wrote...

I mean, he sounded like he had some good ideas. Not ethical ideas, but good ones. I didn't immediately shout "Indoctrinated!" when he proposed to control the reapers. But no, instead I have to deny him, and instantly assume he's indoctrinated, even though it sounds like a perfectly valid idea.

To add insult to injury, Shepard has the option to control the reapers, right after insisting to TIM that the reapers cannot be controlled! <_<


If you find the answer to that then.. check this out:

The AI  claims that he created the Reapers billions of years ago as a means of solving the problem of synthetic life forms killing their organic creators.
The Reaper’s whole purpose is to save Organics by  killing them, and turning them into synthetics. So that Organics won’t  make synthetics who will then kill organics.

^What does that mean?:
1)killing you is for you're own good? 
2) you have to die for us to save you from someone like us?? 

am I getting dumb or  is this the effect of taking too much of artistic integrity?

Modifié par Huntress, 19 mai 2012 - 10:34 .


#74
Cainne Chapel

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Michale_Jackson wrote...

napushenko wrote...

Michale_Jackson wrote...

napushenko wrote...

Michale_Jackson wrote...

Because
any more choices would have broke the game's linear direction, and
required the dev team to add several more months of work to the game and
miss their planned vacation with the earnings they could make if they
release the game as-is unpolished, poorly written and broken.


tell me which things were not linear in me1 and me 2 
i dare you 


ME1 plays nothing like ME2 or ME3.  There's numerous non-linear avenues you can take in the original Mass Effect


numerous meh meh, tell me at least one of them ? all you could do is choose in which order you would finish the missions. and there were limitations to that too.
sleight of hand. but i do agree that it gives you more options then me 2 and me 3 but you people make it sound like everything you do in them branches out different story paths. like hell it does.


I'll tell you two. 

If I didn't want to do Novera or Ilos, I could freely just go to a different galaxy and explore the various explorable planets via the Mako, or better yet go out and explore old school on foot, and walk unkown explorable planets in search for treasures, salvageable items, metal, and other quests available for when exploring planets.  Sure some planets were barren of any life, yet plenty of others weren't, you could freely do whatever you wanted and spend hours in the game till you met your personal goal.

With a fully managible inventory system the original game had I could deviated from the main game and simply became a space merchant, collect, buy and sell items and weapons and play the game with a goal of getting rich till my heart content, or collecting or buying some of the most advanced items, armor and weaponry.  It's very possible to do this with the original, you can't do this in ME2 or ME3 because Bioware became lazy on the inventory system, to the point you couldn't even freely change weapons or armor without having to be on the Normandy.


While I do get what you're saying and I do miss the "free form" nature of ME1.  The heavier emphasis on the story structure makes sense for ME2 and 3 because of the path they want the story to progress I reckon.

You really couldnt spend hours doign whatever you wanted though, it wasn't an open world sandbox game.  You oculd only land on planets with missions or with "something" to do on them.  and even then they were really just random geometry with the same copy/pasted dungeons (that people hate so much in DA2, etc).  So you were either killing something or collecting something, sure it was at your leisure but it wasn't really "freedom".

and while the inventory was fully manageable, outside of the armors, the weapons wre really just copy/pasted as well with maybe 2 or 3 different skins. and you couldn't really become a "space merchant" as it was VERY easy by mid game to have topped off at 999999 credits and you couldnt go any hgher so you would just omnigel or destroy most items and since certain items were CLEARLY better, there was no need to keep the garbage.  Sure there were a "variety" of items but not nearly as many weapons as 2 and 3, and while the armor was more maneageable it got to a point where there was stuff that was CLEARLY better unless you just liked the look.

But either way you still had to go forward in the game to get more weapons and level up etc, so I dont get how you can become a space merchant in ME1 more than you could in any of the other ME games.  Its not like there was a storyline path or anything to indicate you could do so except in your own imagination.  Which I guess is fine... but hardly constitutes as "freedom" in the game as ME1 is STILL as linear as ME2 and 3.  you just had more of a chance choose your order of missions between Noveria, Feros,etc.  But you STILL had to do them before you could progress.

the planet side missions I dont think really count as "Freedom" anymore than the Side missions in ME2 and 3 though.  You just had a different scale in ME1 rather than 2 and 3.

Modifié par Cainne Chapel, 19 mai 2012 - 10:44 .


#75
Blacklash93

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Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...
I don't believe that he was indoctrinated at the end of ME3.. he had the will to pursuit 'Control' for the sake of humanity and without being influenced by the reapers.

Perhaps you overlooked his face rusting and the fact that the Reapers had him doing everything they wanted at that point and he was completely unaware of it.