139 réponses à ce sujet

[napushenko]

chengthao wrote...

napushenko wrote...

"BW wrote/made Cerberus into pure evil villians but in ME2 this counters the arguement (Miranda tells Shepard what they did and that they stopped after they found out how "evil" their plans were)"

This doesnt counter anything. Please explain.. if you want

you do know ME2 came out before ME3, right?

your entire arguement is based on what Cerberus did in ME3 which came out after ME2 . . . . they became the main villians and all these evil experiments were added in to ME3 not continued from ME2

from the experiments on Jack to trying to control the Rachni, all of it was stopped by TIM when he found out how "evil" these operations were

lol, yeah, hes so honest person and has so trusting eyes, i dont know how you can not trust him. 

btw, for your information, all of those evil experiments started in me 1 which by my count came out before me 2. you would know it if you played it. 

Modifié par napushenko, 19 mai 2012 - 11:01 .

[napushenko]

[quote]napushenko wrote...

[quote]chengthao wrote...

[quote]napushenko wrote...

"BW wrote/made Cerberus into pure evil villians but in ME2 this counters the arguement (Miranda tells Shepard what they did and that they stopped after they found out how "evil" their plans were)"

This doesnt counter anything. Please explain.. if you want

[/quote]

you do know ME2 came out before ME3, right?

your entire arguement is based on what Cerberus did in ME3 which came out after ME2 . . . . they became the main villians and all these evil experiments were added in to ME3 not continued from ME2

from the experiments on Jack to trying to control the Rachni, all of it was stopped by TIM when he found out how "evil" these operations were[/quote]

lol, yeah, hes so honest person and has so trusting eyes, i dont know how you can not trust him. 


btw, for your information, all of those evil experiments started in me 1 which by my count came out before me 2. you would know it if you played it. 

Modifié par napushenko, 19 mai 2012 - 10:59 .

[Blacklash93]

His goals were noble, for us Humans anyway but his methods were ruthless but i believed some of those were justified in what he wanted to achieve.

I don't find his goals noble at all, just like how I find nationalist countries who only interact with others to get what they want one of the furthest things from noble. It might give off the illusion of nobility in the context of what you're trying to benefit, but in the bigger picture it's being unable to think beyond yourself. Your moral horizons have basically hit a brick wall if you ascribe yourself to this ideology.

And I don't believe poisoning unborn children and torturing and drugging those who survive that justified by anything. Nor brainwashing sentient life to be shock troopers. Nor processing innocent people into monsters.

[Tim_H]

His goals were noble, for us Humans anyway but his methods were ruthless but i believed some of those were justified in what he wanted to achieve.

You mean well, but Cerberus is basically doing the same thing that **** Germany did during WWII.  

I wonder if TIM justifies his most barbaric research by pulling "undesireables" as a test subjects.  I doubt he would put the likes of Miranda into an experiment to turn her into a husk with a high likelihood of failure and death.  

And, supporting my point, the game already shows us that TIM abducts non-Cereberus colonists for his husk research.  The game doesn't go into this, but TIM probably also categorizes humanity into his own idea of superiors and inferiors.  And, we've also seen he does not tolerate dissent or defections (RE: Jacob and the group of scientists that fled TIM).

In other words, Cerberus's depiction as an extremist "terrorist" group has been stated to us in clear terms since ME1.  I'm certain TIM sees himself as noble, if the definition of nobility is a strong feeling of righteousness and superiority.  By the end of the game, we see that TIM doesn't even care about humanity particularly much.  Humanity was just his "noble justification" for his pursuit of power.   

[Bigdoser]

My renegade shep got sick of TIM making her play janitor for his messed up projects. Lets not forget that project that threatened the galaxy since TIM was pressing them for results. No way I am going to trust them if they can't handle their own stuff.

Plus I was not impressed with cerb after doing Jack's loyalty mission making kids fight each other like that and filling them up with drugs when they kill each another. Oh and don't get me started on sanctuary. 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 19 mai 2012 - 11:44 .

[SynheKatze]

I'll tell you the real non-ingame reason so as to why you were opossing Cerbie without even tryin': you needed generic mooks to shoot at. That's it. Cerberus was included in some kind of contrived attempt to make the game's gameplay varied. Fat chance since they dominated the game. Durrr.

[Sebby]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Probably something to do with the fact that Cerberus/TIM were the worst-written part of ME3 after the ending, I suspect.

Seboist wrote...

For same reasons the Geth and Rachni are "lol indoctrinated", Bioware doesn't give a damn about player choice and wants to cut corners.

You know, if they'd just not separated the geth between "heretics" and "true geth" in ME2, making them all being under Reaper control in ME3 would have made a lot more sense. They screwed themselves over for ME3 in ME2 in a lot of ways (like introducing so many new characters when they should have known it would be impossible to write substantial parts for all of them in the next game).

I've played through the Rannoch sections with imports where I had sold Legion to Cerberus and one where I hadn't and I must say the former is more fitting. Geth VI/Legion being the sole "Heretic" makes more sense continuity wise.

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Tim_H wrote...

You mean well, but Cerberus is basically doing the same thing that **** Germany did during WWII. 

Godwin's Law comes true again...

Is it really Godwin's law when the game itself enacts it? The leak had a not so subtle comparison between TIM and Hitler, not to mention ME2's script calling them space notsees(you destroy the base for "great justice"! LOL!"

I was actually surprised by how tame Sanctuary was. Based on that leaked line and their prior hack attempts at shock value in ME2 and the ME3 intro I was expecting some over the top notsee concentration camp parody.

Modifié par Seboist, 20 mai 2012 - 01:13 .

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

Should have been an option consider ing one of the jelly bean ending is control. They spend the whole game yelling no to this option then giving it to you in the end and say yeah forget the first 99%.

[chengthao]

napushenko wrote...

chengthao wrote...

napushenko wrote...

"BW wrote/made Cerberus into pure evil villians but in ME2 this counters the arguement (Miranda tells Shepard what they did and that they stopped after they found out how "evil" their plans were)"

This doesnt counter anything. Please explain.. if you want

you do know ME2 came out before ME3, right?

your entire arguement is based on what Cerberus did in ME3 which came out after ME2 . . . . they became the main villians and all these evil experiments were added in to ME3 not continued from ME2

from the experiments on Jack to trying to control the Rachni, all of it was stopped by TIM when he found out how "evil" these operations were

lol, yeah, hes so honest person and has so trusting eyes, i dont know how you can not trust him. 

a renegade Shepard does trust and believe in what TIM is doing

napushenko wrote...

btw, for your information, all of those evil experiments started in me 1 which by my count came out before me 2. you would know it if you played it. 

play ME2 and Miranda explains it to you

you would know if you played it

[Katamariguy]

alleyd wrote...

This was a confrontation that I hoped was more in line till the TIM's indoctrination.


Cerberus Revealed

Shepard struggles up the ramp to an antechamber, which houses a control panel. Above her head is the giant form of the Crucible and a hum of strange energy fills the air. The Citadel arms are open to the void but its vast atmospheric shield separates the chamber from the vacuum of space. An intense, chaotic battle between the Reapers and the allied fleets plays out in the void above. In the background is the image of the Earth, pockmarked by huge fires from the battles on its surface.

*snip*

Damn. That was amazing.

[feliciano2040]

ZombieGambit wrote...

Why are we forced to fight the Reapers or become a Spectre in the first place? Because you can't have a proper plot if you leave every choice open to players.

HAHA ! THIS HUMAN ! HE UNDERSTANDS !

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...
I don't believe that he was indoctrinated at the end of ME3.. he had the will to pursuit 'Control' for the sake of humanity and without being influenced by the reapers.

Perhaps you overlooked his face rusting and the fact that the Reapers had him doing everything they wanted at that point and he was completely unaware of it.

It's plain BS .. *threatening with lowering ME3 score by 1*!

Mr.House wrote...

Same reason you where forced to join Cerberus in ME2 right at the start instead of going right to the Council. ME series has always been linear and never giving true you freedom at all. You want that, go play a Bethesda game.

True, but Fallout is better.

Modifié par Imperial Sentinel Arian, 20 mai 2012 - 05:27 .

[Homebound]

actually, if u have enough renegade in mass3, u can tell illusive man to stfu and let you handle things. he wont let you, but this does tell us renegadeshep agrees with tim and not only does he or she agree, but believes can do better. And with a trackrecord like tim's, its hard not to agree with renegadeshep..

[GodWood]

Kajan451 wrote...
His research has yielded us with artic survival suits that have saved thousands of life. That does NOT justfy tormenting people to death by freezing them in cold water.

Well actually it does.

Just because you don't like something that doesn't mean it can't be justified.

Anyways, please, kiddies, stop with the Godwinning.

EDIT: Wait, they censor **** as well?

EDIT EDIT: Haha, they actually do censor Biodrone. That's just lol.

Modifié par GodWood, 20 mai 2012 - 06:30 .

[FFinfinity1]

because you'd have to be indoctrinated to believe hi-...


oh i see what Bioware did there

Modifié par FFinfinity1, 20 mai 2012 - 06:27 .

[Elk Cloner]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Which puts you on par with the psychopaths who say that AIDS can be "cured" by euthanizing everyone who is HIV positive.

Please stop posting now.

Euthanisation is a strong word and extreme measure. Quarantine would suffice. It happened in the past and it worked.

[Sierra 264]

Icemix wrote...

napushenko wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

I think it is because joining TIM would have required a new path in the game, much like in the witcher 2, and the devs weren´t willing to put that effort in.

The game is just too linear to account for such things, even renegade shepard feels awkard many times, because paragon shepard just fits better in how the story folds.

TIM was also made a obvious villain from the start, by making him use reaper tech on his own troops, making them husk-like. Yet they could have simply had certain prototype implants (based on reaper tech if you like) that enhanced their abilities, linking to the ME1 idea of searching for super soldiers. But i guess making them brainless mooks makes them works better as your enemy.

If you compare the codex entry of ME2 and ME3 about cerberus, you will see a change: in ME3 it says that cerberus wants to advance human interests, regarding the costs to non humans AND humans. In ME2 it was just to non humans. So TIM went from an organization that values humanity but is ruthless about the way they go, to another that doesn´t even care about his own cerberus members (remember in ME2 "cerberus is humanity" line?). It´s just sad

do you remember experiments on admiral kahoku and his team in me 1 ? 
yeah, they were allways about rainbows and butterflies 

and why should they put that effort when none of the previous games had such feature in any way. whats so different now that you all are bashing for linearity and so appreciate me 1 & 2 which were so "non linear" only in your dreams. 

They can't even if they want to, there is no space on the limited ****box 360. Maybe on PC and PS3, but since its main market is the 360, we all have to suffer.

No space? What are you talking about?

[Skyhawk02]

I agree 100% with the OP. It didn't make any sense that you had to do a 180 on shepard's cerberus relationship. In my second playthrough I was planning on siding with cerberus and was shocked when the renegade options led to the exact same outcomes.

[Pandaman102]

Remember one of the first missions you get in the Citadel in Mass Effect 1? Choose to either help Bhatia recover his wife's body or allow tests that can potentially save countless Alliance soldiers from Geth weapons? That's what I thought Cerberus was going to be by the end of ME2: that question of whether your Shepard would turn a blind eye to atrocities for quick results that can potentially save countless others, or something your Shepard will absolutely not stand for, even if it means the fight will be that much harder.

And it needn't be a whole new plot line either. Rather than make Cerberus an entire faction to rival the Alliance command, they could have stayed a black ops organization. At certain missions (if Shepard chose to ally with Cerberus), TIM can inject additional mission objectives or even alternate mission objectives. For example, Hackett wants you to take out a damaged Reaper before it completes repairs, but TIM wants you to launch an experimental probe into it instead. You can either go with Hackett for the obvious benefit, or with TIM and further his research on controlling/pacifying the Reapers (and later find out the Reaper you didn't destroy shot down several convoys of civilians).

Snub TIM too much, or snub him in key objectives, and you lose his support (if you ever asked for it, that is). Help TIM too much... well, there really shouldn't be any consequences to that other than the massive piles of dead innocents that will accrue. TIM runs a secret organization, he should know well enough not to have Shepard invite too much suspicion.

[Sebby]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Yeah, it would have been interesting if Legion was the only geth who wasn't working for the Reapers the whole time. It would only require minor changes to the writing and would have made far more sense.

As it was, Bioware spent too much time trying to make people sympathize with the geth (don't even get me started on that awful "geth consensus" mission) and not enough trying to make them coherent. Same problem with Cerberus, only their attempts at player manipulation went in the opposite direction, with them trying to force us to hate rather than love them.

BIoware goes from one extreme to the other, if it's not having the Rachni and Geth be cute and cuddly beings who only do bad because of "lol indoctrination" it's having mercs and Cerberus do atrocities for the lulz(ex killing students even though their orders were to capture them alive).

Hmm, I don't recall this leaked line (although I'm not doubting its existence). Still, I'm tired of seeing the Nazis  (still don't know why that word's censored; that's almost as ridiculous as the fact that they censor "Biodrone") being pulled out in every argument, even when it is a proper comparison. A little more variety in racist murderers held up as examples would be nice once in a while.

It was something along the lines of "While your species has the likes of the Illusive Man yours is also the same one who produced Churchill".

That of course, doesn't top the other deleted bit where Shepard and Joker are wondering if they'd get TIM's sloppy seconds from banging the EDI sex robot. I was disapointed they got rid of that one, not only would have it been LOL funny but it would have shown what idiots these ITers were for believing these hacks with this mindset were capable of anything subtle(as if the game in it's current form isn't enough).

Modifié par Seboist, 20 mai 2012 - 11:24 .

[Unpleasant Implications]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

I'd say all those deaths was a necessary sacrifice. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Which puts you on par with the psychopaths who say that AIDS can be "cured" by euthanizing everyone who is HIV positive.

Please stop posting now.

That is a COMPLETELYdifferent argument that in no way is within the same context as what NB was talking about.