122 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

More what? The dialogue wheel is structured to accomodate 3 dominant personalities: subtle, humorous and aggresive. 

You are being too kind, they were more like: ****, douchebag and a moron.

[robertthebard]

Ukki wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

More what? The dialogue wheel is structured to accomodate 3 dominant personalities: subtle, humorous and aggresive. 

You are being too kind, they were more like: ****, douchebag and a moron.

Were the choices in Origins any different?  So because they're voiced now, it's worse?  I seem to recall pages upon pages of discussion about this very issue in Origins, way back when it was new.  In fact, I seem to recall the same conversation about Baldur's Gate, Ice Wind Dale, and Neverwinter Nights.  Yet this discussion is full of how "limited" the dialog was.  I've even had one person tell me that you can say whatever you want to NPC's in MMO's.  Of course, that boat might float if I'd never played any, but since I have, sorry to burst bubbles.  Dialogs are always limited because there is no possible way to accomodate everything somebody might want to say to an NPC/Companion.  Again, if somebody can point me to a game with truly open dialog with NPC's, I'll accept the discussion here as more than "I'm mad because the game wasn't a continuation of how great my warden was".  Until then, it's nitpicking things to hate because somebody was mad.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

robertthebard wrote...
Were the choices in Origins any different?

Yes they are. And I have given you example of choices, effect and consequences which is reflected at the end game. You don't side Harrowmont only to kill both Bhelen and Harrowmont in the end. DA 2 did that with mage-templar conflict. You don't kill Isolde only to have both Isolde and Connor died as a result. DA 2 did that with Wayward's Son Quest. Check  NPCS A's stubborness to go to X location despite you tell him not to. Or Magister B's reaction despite everything you do. Or companions I leaving despite having high friendship with you - Luckily I already anticipated her move the moment I heard the phrase, "Pirate with the golden heart" in ACT 1. So I wasn't furios compare to Zevran's betrayal at Denerim.   

robertthebard wrote...

So because they're voiced now, it's worse?

The voice itself is not a problem. The implementation, however, need to be worked out. If David Gaider's himself already admit that more clarity is needed then there is a problem with VA. So who are you to claim otherwise? Your ideal character may be generic diplomatic or generic humorous or generic aggresive character. But what about those who want to play snarky or bitter or anything else? Are those people not mattered too? What if there is no dialogue option at all? Will you accept that as limtation as well? It's easy for you to accept since it's not you who suffered the pain of roleplaying the character that keep disconnecting or breaking from your creation.
 

robertthebard wrote...
Dialogs are always limited because there is no possible way to accomodate everything somebody might want to say to an NPC/Companion.

Dialogue is limited because you allow yourself to be limited by design. In other word, you refuse to use your imagination when imagination was the most powerful tools back then in 1990s. Roleplaying itself has no limitation. Because without imgination there wont be any fantasy creation. Without fantasy there won't be any roleplaying. Without roleplaying there wont be any actors. Without actors there wont be any movies or novels. Without actors there won't be any players at all roleplaying video games.

The point is DAO or NW or Baldur Gate or Skyim or all classic WRPG dialogue's can be expressed or RP in limtless possibilities which you simply refuse to acknowledge because you only see the text displayed in front you and not how those texts are supposed to be expressed. And don't give me bull**** that NPC cannot understand your imagination or misunderstand you. NPCs is not your concern. You don't RP NPC. You only RP your character. Just because you only see 3 dialogue lines, doesn't mean you have to surrender your character humanity to be the dumb robot the NPCs are.

robertthebard wrote...

Again, if somebody can point me to a game with truly open dialog with NPC's, I'll accept the discussion here as more than "I'm mad because the game wasn't a continuation of how great my warden was".  Until then, it's nitpicking things to hate because somebody was mad.

Every dialogue lines with silent protagonist is open for interpretation and expression. But like I said, some people just refuse to use their imagination because they want to watch movie instead of roleplaying. It's much easier to leave RP to movie's character and only direct that character in combat and movement from outside the story aka JRPG, than assuming the role of a created character in the story aka WRPG. I wonder why even bother with dialogue lines when everything is required to be explicitly spoon feed. You may as well just scrap dialogue options and let it play out by itself like Darksiders or Final Fantasy..

Anyway, The Warden was truly great. His/her story ended in epic. And most important of all the warden can be my avatar or my created character. That alone is enough for me.

Hawke, on the hand is not my character. His story is not my story. His role is not my role and his view is irrelevant to DA 2 because it's all about Cassandra wanting to know what Hawke been up to for the course of 10 years. That's the only thing that matter in the end. Hawke is nothing but an idiot passive looser who cannot do anything right. I wonder how on earth can someone like him become the most important person in Thedas when all he did was watching the events unfold before him. I mean I saw an NPC with blocky face near the Chantry who stand there days and nights for 10 years. He's one of the witnesses too. Does that mean he also become the most important person in Thedas? Why not Aveline, the Captain of Kirkwall's Guard?

So until PC is truly PC - and not the abomination of preset and created character  - who actually act like a hero - and not dumb passive character, the only character that remain the greatest in Thedas is the warden. MY Warden. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 27 mai 2012 - 04:04 .

[jbrand2002uk]

@Sacred: The Wardens story ended in epic ? are you serious oh wait he is my god he's even more far gone than i thought he's gone and adopted the mythbusters adage ( When reality contradicts with my fantasy reality doesn't exist) it was the most generic dull story story thats been done ad nauseum since storys were first written and quite frankly its a worn out broken record.

As for Hawke been passive, Well thats the same DAO Purist Double standard BS thats a regular feature of that group. Again in DAO the PC is forced to become a Warden, is forced to travel to the Circle of magi,Redcliffe,Circle of Magi and that smelly dark dwarven Cesspit to recruit an army because until you visit all of them you cant go to Denerim for the landsmeet.and regardless of the choices you make your still forced to fight Loghain 1v1 and and then you fight your way to the Archdemon with that so called faux choice of who dies when the archdemon is is slain or whooptydo you or one of your companions doesnt have to die if you/they bonk Morrigan oh how original, not.The Warden is just as passive but yet again the Double Standards or because its DAO its acceptable/ignored but in DA2 its the mother of all sins

[jbrand2002uk]

oh and please sacred the warden isnt your character its BW's your purely get to decide on its gender, species and whether his like Bows and arrows, pointy things of varying length or to shoot magic out of his or her stick/butthole aside from those everything else is pre written by someone else and that is not creating a character

[Welsh Inferno]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

@Sacred: The Wardens story ended in epic ? are you serious oh wait he is my god he's even more far gone than i thought he's gone and adopted the mythbusters adage ( When reality contradicts with my fantasy reality doesn't exist) it was the most generic dull story story thats been done ad nauseum since storys were first written and quite frankly its a worn out broken record.

As for Hawke been passive, Well thats the same DAO Purist Double standard BS thats a regular feature of that group. Again in DAO the PC is forced to become a Warden, is forced to travel to the Circle of magi,Redcliffe,Circle of Magi and that smelly dark dwarven Cesspit to recruit an army because until you visit all of them you cant go to Denerim for the landsmeet.and regardless of the choices you make your still forced to fight Loghain 1v1 and and then you fight your way to the Archdemon with that so called faux choice of who dies when the archdemon is is slain or whooptydo you or one of your companions doesnt have to die if you/they bonk Morrigan oh how original, not.The Warden is just as passive but yet again the Double Standards or because its DAO its acceptable/ignored but in DA2 its the mother of all sins

Is this a troll post or what..?

How in the hell can you not see DAO has a humungous amount of freedom compared to DA2..

[robertthebard]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
 

robertthebard wrote...
Dialogs are always limited because there is no possible way to accomodate everything somebody might want to say to an NPC/Companion.

Dialogue is limited because you allow yourself to be limited by design. In other word, you refuse to use your imagination when imagination was the most powerful tools back then in 1990s. Roleplaying itself has no limitation. Because without imgination there wont be any fantasy creation. Without fantasy there won't be any roleplaying. Without roleplaying there wont be any actors. Without actors there wont be any movies or novels. Without actors there won't be any players at all roleplaying video games.

The point is DAO or NW or Baldur Gate or Skyim or all classic WRPG dialogue's can be expressed or RP in limtless possibilities which you simply refuse to acknowledge because you only see the text displayed in front you and not how those texts are supposed to be expressed. And don't give me bull**** that NPC cannot understand your imagination or misunderstand you. NPCs is not your concern. You don't RP NPC. You only RP your character. Just because you only see 3 dialogue lines, doesn't mean you have to surrender your character humanity to be the dumb robot the NPCs are.

So why are we having this discussion again?  Since the highlighted portion above is what I've been saying the entire time? 

robertthebard wrote...

Again, if somebody can point me to a game with truly open dialog with NPC's, I'll accept the discussion here as more than "I'm mad because the game wasn't a continuation of how great my warden was".  Until then, it's nitpicking things to hate because somebody was mad.

Every dialogue lines with silent protagonist is open for interpretation and expression. But like I said, some people just refuse to use their imagination because they want to watch movie instead of roleplaying. It's much easier to leave RP to movie's character and only direct that character in combat and movement from outside the story aka JRPG, than assuming the role of a created character in the story aka WRPG. I wonder why even bother with dialogue lines when everything is required to be explicitly spoon feed. You may as well just scrap dialogue options and let it play out by itself like Darksiders or Final Fantasy..

Anyway, The Warden was truly great. His/her story ended in epic. And most important of all the warden can be my avatar or my created character. That alone is enough for me.

Hawke, on the hand is not my character. His story is not my story. His role is not my role and his view is irrelevant to DA 2 because it's all about Cassandra wanting to know what Hawke been up to for the course of 10 years. That's the only thing that matter in the end. Hawke is nothing but an idiot passive looser who cannot do anything right. I wonder how on earth can someone like him become the most important person in Thedas when all he did was watching the events unfold before him. I mean I saw an NPC with blocky face near the Chantry who stand there days and nights for 10 years. He's one of the witnesses too. Does that mean he also become the most important person in Thedas? Why not Aveline, the Captain of Kirkwall's Guard?

So until PC is truly PC - and not the abomination of preset and created character  - who actually act like a hero - and not dumb passive character, the only character that remain the greatest in Thedas is the warden. MY Warden. 

It's funny you say that Origins ended in epic, since I've read a lot of posts to the contrary.  All the "head canons" for Wardens that didn't do the Ultimate Sacrifice ending, or that did Morrigan's ritual.  So I believe we've hit an empasse, because you seem to be arguing from a negative position.  After all, if Hawke disappearing at the end disappoints you, how disappointing is it to know that the Warden did too?  It's also obvious from your tirade that you are indeed mad that you didn't get to be the Warden again, and are indeed nitpicking w/out even the courtesy of being consistent with it.

Modifié par robertthebard, 27 mai 2012 - 06:32 .

[robertthebard]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

@Sacred: The Wardens story ended in epic ? are you serious oh wait he is my god he's even more far gone than i thought he's gone and adopted the mythbusters adage ( When reality contradicts with my fantasy reality doesn't exist) it was the most generic dull story story thats been done ad nauseum since storys were first written and quite frankly its a worn out broken record.

As for Hawke been passive, Well thats the same DAO Purist Double standard BS thats a regular feature of that group. Again in DAO the PC is forced to become a Warden, is forced to travel to the Circle of magi,Redcliffe,Circle of Magi and that smelly dark dwarven Cesspit to recruit an army because until you visit all of them you cant go to Denerim for the landsmeet.and regardless of the choices you make your still forced to fight Loghain 1v1 and and then you fight your way to the Archdemon with that so called faux choice of who dies when the archdemon is is slain or whooptydo you or one of your companions doesnt have to die if you/they bonk Morrigan oh how original, not.The Warden is just as passive but yet again the Double Standards or because its DAO its acceptable/ignored but in DA2 its the mother of all sins

Is this a troll post or what..?

How in the hell can you not see DAO has a humungous amount of freedom compared to DA2..

While I'm not going to go on a rant, it's not much different at all.  You can choose to go to one of 4 places first, and then do them in whatever order, plus you can do side quests.  What's so different?  In the end, you are railroaded to a predetermined ending where, depending on what you do, you may well find yourself simply disappearing into the aether.  In the end, it's not that different.

[wsandista]

robertthebard wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

@Sacred: The Wardens story ended in epic ? are you serious oh wait he is my god he's even more far gone than i thought he's gone and adopted the mythbusters adage ( When reality contradicts with my fantasy reality doesn't exist) it was the most generic dull story story thats been done ad nauseum since storys were first written and quite frankly its a worn out broken record.

As for Hawke been passive, Well thats the same DAO Purist Double standard BS thats a regular feature of that group. Again in DAO the PC is forced to become a Warden, is forced to travel to the Circle of magi,Redcliffe,Circle of Magi and that smelly dark dwarven Cesspit to recruit an army because until you visit all of them you cant go to Denerim for the landsmeet.and regardless of the choices you make your still forced to fight Loghain 1v1 and and then you fight your way to the Archdemon with that so called faux choice of who dies when the archdemon is is slain or whooptydo you or one of your companions doesnt have to die if you/they bonk Morrigan oh how original, not.The Warden is just as passive but yet again the Double Standards or because its DAO its acceptable/ignored but in DA2 its the mother of all sins

Is this a troll post or what..?

How in the hell can you not see DAO has a humungous amount of freedom compared to DA2..

While I'm not going to go on a rant, it's not much different at all.  You can choose to go to one of 4 places first, and then do them in whatever order, plus you can do side quests.  What's so different?  In the end, you are railroaded to a predetermined ending where, depending on what you do, you may well find yourself simply disappearing into the aether.  In the end, it's not that different.

Equipment options for one. Player can interpet the PC's lines however they wish.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

robertthebard wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
 

robertthebard wrote...
Dialogs are always limited because there is no possible way to accomodate everything somebody might want to say to an NPC/Companion.

Dialogue is limited because you allow yourself to be limited by design.

 

So why are we having this discussion again?  Since the highlighted portion above is what I've been saying the entire time?

Because that's your problem. I was fine with how the dialogue was done in NW, NW 2 and DAO until you guys come up with your briliant ideas to see a more limited-than-ever responsive interaction with a 3 sound tones system that is so painful to mold into a unique character. Did you guys ever find a way to make it more flexible? Nope. Instead you guys defended it like it's some kind of holy grail. But then again why should you be bothered with other people's problem when you're perfectly content with the generic 3 dominant personalities.
 
 

robertthebard wrote...
It's funny you say that Origins ended in epic, since I've read a lot of posts to the contrary.  All the "head canons" for Wardens that didn't do the Ultimate Sacrifice ending, or that did Morrigan's ritual.

But the Ultimate Sacrifice ending is there whether you choose it or not. Therefore the epic ending exist. 

robertthebard wrote..

So I believe we've hit an empasse, because you seem to be arguing from a negative position. 

 No. Your argument is irrelevant because  headcanon is irrelevant when the option for the epic ending does exist. 

robertthebard wrote..


After all, if Hawke disappearing at the end disappoints you, how disappointing is it to know that the Warden did too?

I wasn't disappointed with My warden's "disappearance". I know exactly where my warden is. Both Leliana and Cassandra know nothing about my warden. As a matter of fact, it's silly for Leliana for not knowing where my warden is when she was the last one who travel with one of my wardens in the end of DAO. Therefore it's either Leliana really loose her head that she cannot remember anything about it  ( another problem with BioWare's writing ) or the entire DA 2's ending  is as ridiculous as Hawke's disapperance from PC's point of view. But then again some people cannot see that they only "imagine" their Hawke during the entire interrogation and not play the real one. The real Hawke however, remain a mystery that no one knows right from the begining. Which is Hawke is Hawke - and nobody.
   

robertthebard wrote..



It's also obvious from your tirade that you are indeed mad that you didn't get to be the Warden again, and are indeed nitpicking w/out even the courtesy of being consistent with it.

Well then, let me tell you this. I have zero confidence that BioWare could ever bring back my warden. Do you know why? Because BioWare has no clue how I shape my warden's personalities. They can't import face sliders with their new graphic engine and I'm pretty much happy with my warden's ending. The only thing I look forward is Morrigan. If it isn't for Morrigan's reappearance in future DA series, I would have abandon DA already.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 27 mai 2012 - 07:42 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

@Sacred: The Wardens story ended in epic ? are you serious oh wait he is my god he's even more far gone than i thought he's gone and adopted the mythbusters adage ( When reality contradicts with my fantasy reality doesn't exist) it was the most generic dull story story thats been done ad nauseum since storys were first written and quite frankly its a worn out broken record.

As for Hawke been passive, Well thats the same DAO Purist Double standard BS thats a regular feature of that group. Again in DAO the PC is forced to become a Warden, is forced to travel to the Circle of magi,Redcliffe,Circle of Magi and that smelly dark dwarven Cesspit to recruit an army because until you visit all of them you cant go to Denerim for the landsmeet.and regardless of the choices you make your still forced to fight Loghain 1v1 and and then you fight your way to the Archdemon with that so called faux choice of who dies when the archdemon is is slain or whooptydo you or one of your companions doesnt have to die if you/they bonk Morrigan oh how original, not.The Warden is just as passive but yet again the Double Standards or because its DAO its acceptable/ignored but in DA2 its the mother of all sins

1. The Warden prevented the blight, Hawke didn't prevent the war.
2. The Warden successful avenged his/her family's death by killing Rendon Howe, Hawke failed to protect his own family because he so idiot, he eagerly do anything to be recognized by everyone including the Templars ,completely forgotten who he supposed to hide.
3. The Warden manage to persuade every leader's faction to join his side eventhough all those leaders have their own internal problem. Hawke cannot persuade anyone despite being a diplomat and a viscount's representative and as the result the entire city was razed and many people died. .
4. The Warden accomplish what he was meant to do. Hawke acomplish nothing and leave nothing except bad name for himself for associating with a terrorist.

Hawke is a looser who doesn't deserve a story to be told. And the reason why he become the least favorable of all PCs in BioWare games. Hawke is a mistake that shouldn't exist in the first place.

The Warden is mine because I shape his/her character exactly how I want. A blank slate character which I fill in myself. BioWare doesn't own a blank slate character. They own a cinematic predefined character like Shepard and Hawke whose personalities are already determined by them through paragon/renegade system or diplomatic/humorous/aggressive system which never exist before.

 

[robertthebard]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
 

robertthebard wrote...
Dialogs are always limited because there is no possible way to accomodate everything somebody might want to say to an NPC/Companion.

Dialogue is limited because you allow yourself to be limited by design.

 

So why are we having this discussion again?  Since the highlighted portion above is what I've been saying the entire time?

Because that's your problem. I was fine with how the dialogue was done in NW, NW 2 and DAO until you guys come up with your briliant ideas to see a more limited-than-ever responsive interaction with a 3 sound tones system that is so painful to mold into a unique character. Did you guys ever find a way to make it more flexible? Nope. Instead you guys defended it like it's some kind of holy grail. But then again why should you be bothered with other people's problem when you're perfectly content with the generic 3 dominant personalities.

Again, you are going on and on and on claiming the high ground by complaining about what you accuse me of both complaining about, and being complacent, or lap dog about.  Again, the highlighted portion of your previous quote is you attempting to say I'm the one with the problem, and then, in your next post, you accuse me of being BioWare's lapdog about it.  Frankly, until you can make up your mind what side of the fence you're on, please stop trying to insinuate what side I'm on?

[robertthebard]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

1. The Warden prevented the blight, Hawke didn't prevent the war.

What?  Did you play the same game I did, because the Warden didn't prevent anything.  Preventing the blight would have meant that the darkspawn never got past Ostagar.  Seems to me like they not only got past Ostagar, but they made a mess of Ferelden before they were finally defeated, in Denerim.

2. The Warden successful avenged his/her family's death by killing Rendon Howe, Hawke failed to protect his own family because he so idiot, he eagerly do anything to be recognized by everyone including the Templars ,completely forgotten who he supposed to hide.

You want to hear a funny?  My dwarven Wardens, of either origin, and my Elven Wardens did exactly the same things.  How is that not linear?  What was unique about your Warden?  Did you kill Howe before you did the treaties?  Did you have Daveth or Jory survive the Joining, w/out a mod?  No?  So you did the exact same things as everybody else, but you were unique?

3. The Warden manage to persuade every leader's faction to join his side eventhough all those leaders have their own internal problem. Hawke cannot persuade anyone despite being a diplomat and a viscount's representative and as the result the entire city was razed and many people died.

So how many people died in Ferelden?  How many dwarves died in Orzamar?  How many elves died in the alienage, or the Brecelian forest?  Wait, because you claimed your Warden prevented the blight, that must mean that noone died.  I can understand why you're having issues then, what I can't understand is how you got around the railroaded defeat at Ostagar.

4. The Warden accomplish what he was meant to do. Hawke acomplish nothing and leave nothing except bad name for himself for associating with a terrorist.

The Warden did exactly what the story laid out for him to do, just as Hawke did.  Before you go screaming "No he didn't", or "it's not the same", did you really prevent the blight, or are you just trying to be overdramatic.  If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bull excrement, right?

Hawke is a looser who doesn't deserve a story to be told. And the reason why he become the least favorable of all PCs in BioWare games. Hawke is a mistake that shouldn't exist in the first place.

The Warden is mine because I shape his/her character exactly how I want. A blank slate character which I fill in myself. BioWare doesn't own a blank slate character. They own a cinematic predefined character like Shepard and Hawke whose personalities are already determined by them through paragon/renegade system or diplomatic/humorous/aggressive system which never exist before.

 

So I take it you skipped treaties you didn't want to do?  Of course you did, since you claim you prevented the blight.  Yet, despite the claim of preventing the blight, you still allowed the archdemon to trash Denerim?  Considering the destruction brought on by the blight, what happened in Kirkwall pales in comparison.  However, both games played out exactly how they were supposed to.  You couldn't have the Landsmeet w/out all the treaties finished, in one way or another, you couldn't not save Arl Eamon if you thought it was a waste of time.  You couldn't not deal with the werewolves, or the golems if you thought it was a waste of time either.  All of that had to be done, so your blank slate doesn't really apply, does it?  Especially since, with the exception of the order you do the quests, everybody else that played the game did the exact same things, at one time or another.  So no, your Warden wasn't something special, or unique, it was just one of many other Wardens.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

robertthebard wrote...
Again, you are going on and on and on claiming the high ground by complaining about what you accuse me of both complaining about, and being complacent, or lap dog about.  Again, the highlighted portion of your previous quote is you attempting to say I'm the one with the problem, and then, in your next post, you accuse me of being BioWare's lapdog about it.

 Then why do you bring up dialague when my intial post was spesifically about Hawke's emotion? Why are you justiying game limitation to back up your claim? And why are you trying to justify railroaded decision done by BioWare by claiming DAO did the same thing?

TBH, I rather not talk about dialogue,  NPC response and  voiced vs silent protagonist because we already debated the issue to death and BioWare already hinted that some part of dialogue wheels like clarity will be improvised - which is a positive sign to me. PLUS a lot of people who have problem with voice protagonist had propose some middle ground solution like Sylvius the Mad and I'm sure BioWare are listening. I have no longer concern for dialogue. But Hawke's emotion or facial expression and lack of proper introduction to connect the player with their character they suppose to roleplay, still bother me. This is one area that BioWare remain silent.  

robertthebard wrote...

Frankly, until you can make up your mind what side of the fence you're on, please stop trying to insinuate what side I'm on?

What side of the fence I'm on? Isn't it obvious already what side of the fence I'm on? I'm on Pro-DAO's camp. And you are a DA2 pro-camp judging by how much passion you put into defending DA 2. Am I right?  

[wsandista]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

TBH, I rather not talk about dialogue,  NPC response and  voiced vs silent protagonist because we already debated the issue to death and BioWare already hinted that some part of dialogue wheels like clarity will be improvised - which is a positive sign to me. PLUS a lot of people who have problem with voice protagonist had propose some middle ground solution like Sylvius the Mad and I'm sure BioWare are listening. I have no longer concern for dialogue. But Hawke's emotion or facial expression and lack of proper introduction to connect the player with their character they suppose to roleplay, still bother me. This is one area that BioWare remain silent.  

While I think I agree with you on most aspects, I disagree with you on dialogue. The weaknesses of the voiced PC in role-playing games must be pointed out until the voiced PC stops appearing in them, or until an option to turn off the voiced PC is readily available.

Modifié par wsandista, 28 mai 2012 - 02:16 .

[Issala]

wsandista wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

TBH, I rather not talk about dialogue,  NPC response and  voiced vs silent protagonist because we already debated the issue to death and BioWare already hinted that some part of dialogue wheels like clarity will be improvised - which is a positive sign to me. PLUS a lot of people who have problem with voice protagonist had propose some middle ground solution like Sylvius the Mad and I'm sure BioWare are listening. I have no longer concern for dialogue. But Hawke's emotion or facial expression and lack of proper introduction to connect the player with their character they suppose to roleplay, still bother me. This is one area that BioWare remain silent.  

While I think I agree with you on most aspects, I disagree with you on dialogue. The weaknesses of the voiced PC in role-playing games must be pointed out until the voiced PC stops appearing in them, or until an option to turn off the voiced PC is readily available.

As appealing as the return to a silent protagonist would be, with the direction games are currently going in, it's highly unlikely that there will ever be anything other than a voiced PC. And the closest thing to "turning off" the voiced PC will just continue to be turning off the sound.

[wsandista]

Semhaine wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

TBH, I rather not talk about dialogue,  NPC response and  voiced vs silent protagonist because we already debated the issue to death and BioWare already hinted that some part of dialogue wheels like clarity will be improvised - which is a positive sign to me. PLUS a lot of people who have problem with voice protagonist had propose some middle ground solution like Sylvius the Mad and I'm sure BioWare are listening. I have no longer concern for dialogue. But Hawke's emotion or facial expression and lack of proper introduction to connect the player with their character they suppose to roleplay, still bother me. This is one area that BioWare remain silent.  

While I think I agree with you on most aspects, I disagree with you on dialogue. The weaknesses of the voiced PC in role-playing games must be pointed out until the voiced PC stops appearing in them, or until an option to turn off the voiced PC is readily available.

As appealing as the return to a silent protagonist would be, with the direction games are currently going in, it's highly unlikely that there will ever be anything other than a voiced PC. And the closest thing to "turning off" the voiced PC will just continue to be turning off the sound.

Skyrim or KoA didn't have voiced PCs and they did just great, better than DA2 which did have one.
Then there is the revival of old-school RPGs, like BG, Wasteland2, and Shadowrun Returns.
Finally, there are a good chunk of folks here who keep pushing for the silentPC.
Take all of those factors into account, there will be some outlet for the silent PC to appear in. If DA wants to appeal to that group, then they should find a way to accommodate that group.

[Issala]

wsandista wrote...

Semhaine wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

TBH, I rather not talk about dialogue,  NPC response and  voiced vs silent protagonist because we already debated the issue to death and BioWare already hinted that some part of dialogue wheels like clarity will be improvised - which is a positive sign to me. PLUS a lot of people who have problem with voice protagonist had propose some middle ground solution like Sylvius the Mad and I'm sure BioWare are listening. I have no longer concern for dialogue. But Hawke's emotion or facial expression and lack of proper introduction to connect the player with their character they suppose to roleplay, still bother me. This is one area that BioWare remain silent.  

While I think I agree with you on most aspects, I disagree with you on dialogue. The weaknesses of the voiced PC in role-playing games must be pointed out until the voiced PC stops appearing in them, or until an option to turn off the voiced PC is readily available.

As appealing as the return to a silent protagonist would be, with the direction games are currently going in, it's highly unlikely that there will ever be anything other than a voiced PC. And the closest thing to "turning off" the voiced PC will just continue to be turning off the sound.

Skyrim or KoA didn't have voiced PCs and they did just great, better than DA2 which did have one.
Then there is the revival of old-school RPGs, like BG, Wasteland2, and Shadowrun Returns.
Finally, there are a good chunk of folks here who keep pushing for the silentPC.
Take all of those factors into account, there will be some outlet for the silent PC to appear in. If DA wants to appeal to that group, then they should find a way to accommodate that group.

The facts are indeed undeniable -- excepting for KoA, because 38 Studios is now officially out of business. But BioWare has already stated that they're keeping the voiced protagonist for the next installment in the Dragon Age series. They could go back on that, sure, but I can't really see it happening.
Plus, BioWare's pretty big on trying to cater to everybody all at the same time.

[Paul E Dangerously]

While silent protagonists give more options occasionally (occasionally being the key word) most of the time you get the same stock phrases as you do with every other character.

Where Origins really bothered me in that respect is that your character came off like such a dimwit so much of the time because you ARE silent. He does little to nothing but stand there slack-jawed during conversations or big events. There's a particular part where an NPC gives a big speech and it really should have been you doing it - but because of the lack of voice it's a no go.

I loved Fallout 1-2, the Baldur's Gate series and the rest as much as anyone, but it was a lot easier to get away with a character that never spoke because the most you saw was a static character portrait or a blob of pixels.

But really, if you want a silent protagonist that badly, I'm sure Bioware could just toss in a menu on the option that mutes any player VA. You'd still look like a goon, but it would be an option.

And need I remind all the people harping about the "return of old-school RPGs" thanks to e-begging - sorry, Kickstarter - none of them have been released yet.

Modifié par Sopa de Gato, 28 mai 2012 - 03:16 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

robertthebard wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

1. The Warden prevented the blight, Hawke didn't prevent the war.

What?  Did you play the same game I did, because the Warden didn't prevent anything.  Preventing the blight would have meant that the darkspawn never got past Ostagar.  Seems to me like they not only got past Ostagar, but they made a mess of Ferelden before they were finally defeated, in Denerim.

The blight is not limited to one country like Ferelden. It's a worldwide conflict. For the past 4 blights, none ever manage to contain the blights. Every blights took hundred years and destroy most part of the world. .So yes The warden prevent the 5th blights from escalating into global disaster. So successful that some people didn't realize that the 5th blights happened. 

Hawke didn't prevent a global conflict as hinted by Cassandra , "The world is at brink of war."
 

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

You want to hear a funny?  My dwarven Wardens, of either origin, and my Elven Wardens did exactly the same things.  How is that not linear?  What was unique about your Warden?  Did you kill Howe before you did the treaties?  Did you have Daveth or Jory survive the Joining, w/out a mod?  No?  So you did the exact same things as everybody else, but you were unique?

Wow! You're completely blind to see what makes a pc unique. Or you simply ignorant?  What is your dwarven warden or elven warden had in common with my cousland that require him/her to avenge his/her family's death? Your dwarven warden was either a casted dwarven prince/princess punishable to death or an ex thug  who was sentenced to death for murdering his/her employer . Your elven warden was either sick and abandoned by his/her clan or an escapist city elf who was accused for murdering a human noble. None of this characters had any personal vendetta against Howe. Did Howe accuse your dwarven or elven warden for being an Orlesian traitor? Did Howe even bother to explain why he attacked Highever Castle to your dwarven or elven warden or Amell, before you slay him?

 I don't even bother to explain the differences for every wardens to you. It's so obvious you're stuck in creating your own warden  that you need to explicitly spoon fed by main plot. And no I never claim DAO to be non linear. I recognize the linearity in Ostagar and the warden's joining. But even with it's linearity it allows me to choose either to sacrifce my warden or take DR or become the ruler or travel with Leliana or to track down Morrigan etc.. I get to decide all that and it was shown to me before the epilogue. My Cousland's death body was honored and it was the most difficult consequences I had ever exprience. Alistair responsed to my Amber Cousland's death in the most  heart-broken manner when he said, "I thought we'll be together forever.."  Even after more than 2 years I still remember that one dialogue line. That's how strong DAO's emotional affect me as the player and the creator of Amber Cousland.

DA 2 and Hawke's dumb story is way too subpar to even mentioned at all. It's funny tho when DA 2 was suppose to be more personal and yet it's empty and meaningless.

 

robertthebard wrote...
So how many people died in Ferelden?  How many dwarves died in Orzamar?  How many elves died in the alienage, or the Brecelian forest?  Wait, because you claimed your Warden prevented the blight, that must mean that noone died.  I can understand why you're having issues then, what I can't understand is how you got around the railroaded defeat at Ostagar

Refer to my reply in 1. It's not the matter of prevent a local disassater. It's a matter of preventing a global disaster. I don't care for defeat in Ostagar. My character has no influence whatsoever over Ostagar. It's was Loghain's plan and treachery who.is responsible for the defeat. The same thing cannot be said with Hawke since he has the position and charisma to be a diplomat from the eyes of Arishok. Otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to enter Qunari's compound. Hawke's failure was intentional for no apparent reason other than to reflect such as looser character he was. And that is unacceptable. 

 

robertthebard wrote...

The Warden did exactly what the story laid out for him to do, just as Hawke did.  Before you go screaming "No he didn't", or "it's not the same", did you really prevent the blight, or are you just trying to be overdramatic.  If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bull excrement, right?

The Warden did it in positive and satisfying manner. Hawke did it in negative and outrageous manner. That's different. I'm not happy with everything Hawke did from protecting his family, to protecting the citizen to deal with both templar-mage conflict. If Hawke was so powerless than why the heck do we even bother to follow his story? You may as well tell me a story about Little Red Riding Hood. At least Little Red Riding Hood isn't stressful with idiot looser PC like Hawke. It's realy annoy me to play such an idiot and completely useless character like Hawke. 

 

robertthebard wrote... 
So I take it you skipped treaties you didn't want to do?  Of course you did, since you claim you prevented the blight.  Yet, despite the claim of preventing the blight, you still allowed the archdemon to trash Denerim?  Considering the destruction brought on by the blight, what happened in Kirkwall pales in comparison.

Refer to my above post.  

robertthebard wrote..

However, both games played out exactly how they were supposed to. 

Of course they do. One is sucessful main protagonist while the other is useless main protagonist. They serve their role accordingly. One is cherishable and memorable while the other is despised and forgettable. A true 180 degree turn just like Mike Laidlaw's claim. Well, at any rate I'm glad.I won't be seeing useless PC again because BioWare hinted at Pax that they will pay more attention to character agency and player agency. That's good enough enough to me. At least I could make a more useful PC than BioWare's Hawke.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 28 mai 2012 - 03:31 .

[Issala]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

While silent protagonists give more options occasionally (occasionally being the key word) most of the time you get the same stock phrases as you do with every other character.

Where Origins really bothered me in that respect is that your character came off like such a dimwit so much of the time because you ARE silent. He does little to nothing but stand there slack-jawed during conversations or big events. There's a particular part where an NPC gives a big speech and it really should have been you doing it - but because of the lack of voice it's a no go.

I loved Fallout 1-2, the Baldur's Gate series and the rest as much as anyone, but it was a lot easier to get away with a character that never spoke because the most you saw was a static character portrait or a blob of pixels.

But really, if you want a silent protagonist that badly, I'm sure Bioware could just toss in a menu on the option that mutes any player VA. You'd still look like a goon, but it would be an option.

And need I remind all the people harping about the "return of old-school RPGs" thanks to e-begging - sorry, Kickstarter - none of them have been released yet.

That was one thing that bothered me about DA:A. In DA:O, you'd usually have about three to five options, but then suddenly in Awakening there were only ever three, with the exception of a few cases. That drove me insane.

Back on topic, there are definitely advantages that come with a voiced protagonist. And, honestly, I had fun with my Hawke. I never felt like she wasn't my character, and I had plenty of backstory and personality for her that wasn't dictated by the game. Some of the lines she delivered were priceless. With older games, the silent protagonist did shine because the graphics were more limited and more imagination was necessary.

But at the same time, I have to say that I prefer the silent PC. I have a nifty little bond with Hawke. But I loved my Warden more. Hawke was my character. But the Warden I made was myself. The true argument for silent versus voiced is imagination. That's why people harp on about Baldur's Gate and Skyrim. And Dragon's Dogma. There's a special creator/character bond. A sort of ownership.

Edit: Plus, I always got a kick out of my character just standing there with a totally blank expression on her face while Alistair poured out his heart and soul in DA:O. Fun times.

Modifié par Semhaine, 28 mai 2012 - 03:34 .

[wsandista]

Semhaine wrote...
The facts are indeed undeniable -- excepting for KoA, because 38 Studios is now officially out of business. But BioWare has already stated that they're keeping the voiced protagonist for the next installment in the Dragon Age series. They could go back on that, sure, but I can't really see it happening.
Plus, BioWare's pretty big on trying to cater to everybody all at the same time.

To be fair, I think 38 Studios failed because of trying to over-extend themselves, not because of KoA(which I didn't really like, just used as an example of a AAA with a silent PC)

To the point about catering to everyone, that is the point of having an option to turn off the voiced PC.
Some of us want to dictate our PCs emotions, and others want the PC to be a fleshed-out character that requires less input from the player. the problem with wanting to cater to everyone in a single game is that over-extension can happen, which results in a lower quality game for everyone.