156 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

Addai67 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...
If you are fine with that, than more power to you, but I'm not fine with that. I rather play a game that puts more effort into telling a deep story from multiple perspectives and angles. And I don't give a flying f*ck what David Jaffe has to say about games not being meant to tell stories. Just because games aren't "meant to tell stories" doesn't mean they can't be used to tell great stories. Artistic freedom and everything, you'll figure it out.

I'm more interested in a game that prompts me to tell my own stories.  Watching other people's stories, that's something I can get much more cheaply through Netflix.

Gimmie a break. Besides, you aren't really telling a story in Skyrim. The devs are. You're creating a history for a blank slate character. A story involves structure.

Modifié par slimgrin, 19 mai 2012 - 08:13 .

[Addai]

Luc0s wrote...

Perfect! If Skyrim helps you in writing your own stories then that's awesome! Be sure to share your stories with us, okay? I'm really curious what kind of stories Skyrim allowed you to come up with (and I'm super serious about this, I truly do want to read your stories that you wrote).

I haven't written them down and it's none of your damn business anyway.  That's why it's called a single player game.

[Il Divo]

Luc0s wrote...


While this is correct, I have to ask you: Why do you think the former is better than the latter?

I should elaborate more on this: I don't, which my post did a very bad job of conveying. One limitation of the Half-Life approach (for example) is that you limit the ability to show anything outside the player's POV. So take something like Star Wars, all those sequences where we're shown what the Emperor/Vader/Empire is up to; those are difficult, if not impossible to handle since the only method of interaction for the player is to be present during such a sequence. The limited POV in this case becomes a hindrance.

Sure, sometimes the former is better than the latter, but sometimes a cutscene is needed if the developer wants to show something to the player that cannot be shown without a cutscene. A good example is the finale of Mass Effect 1. You are rushing for the Conduit in the pursuit of Saren, meanwhile Sovereign is already at the Citadel trying to hijack it. This can only be shown in a cutscene. Because Shepard is still on Ilos while Sovereign is at the Citadel. So to show what Sovereign is up to, we cut to a scene, e.g. cutscene. This is a good thing, because when BioWare showed us Sovereign hijacking the Citadel, it gave us a sense of urgency. We knew that sh*t has hit the fan and we need to hurry because now we saw with our own eyes what is at stake. Such a sense of urgency and knowing what is at stake could, at that moment, not be achieved without the use of a cutscene.

So obviously cutscenes have some merits that can't just simply be dismissed. Cutscenes can do thing that gameplay can't.

Cut-scenes are great for conveying information. The primary complaint (that I see), is that at its core, a cut-scene is a movie, a cinematic, etc, even if a short one. It's not so much that the Half-Life approach is better, but that it's far less common to observe in the gaming world, so it's refreshing and much more immersive. Only games that I've really played that felt like they had an emphasis on this sort of story-telling are Half-Life 2, Bioshock, The Darkness, and Modern Warfare 1. And they all did it spectacularly.

But I love cut-scenes as well; the Halo series remains one of my favorites to this day with how Bungie goes about its narratives.

Modifié par Il Divo, 19 mai 2012 - 08:40 .

[Il Divo]

naughty99 wrote...

In games, the story can be "shown" in pre-planned narrative cut scenes, similar to films, but I find it to be more enjoyable when experienced first hand by the player actively interacting with NPCs and the world, taking actions and making choices in the course of playing the game instead of a "time out" to watch a movie.

Still, given this approach, I find Jaffe's arguments odd, especially since he points out Batman: Arkham CIty's introduction where Bruce Wayne is restrained as an example where the game should have avoided this kind of approach.

I kind of thought that should be what we're after, since it blends gameplay/narrative by letting the player experience the first brutal view of Arkham City as a "helpless" prisoner.

[Melca36]

I con mind cutscenes but I dont like overly long ones. And I still want to play an actual game .

[DahliaLynn]

Luc0s wrote...

I see, thanks for enlightening me Il Divo.

I also see that there is a general consensus among us gamers. All of us who are in favor of cutscenes seem to acknowledge the same thing: cutscenes can provide information that cannot be provide in any other way without cutting away from the gameplay. Because of this, cutscenes are a great tool and can, when properly done, be a real positive addition to the video-game.

I think the key issue here is "when properly done". So, what's "properly done"?
I would say,
1. When the player becomes accustomed to the feature
2. When length doesn't become overbearing:
2a The occasion when the length of the cutscene is equivelent to how hard the player worked for it in the "story reward" sense.
2b. When cutscene length is just long enough to convery the message according to how important it is for the player to see it, be it badass rare move, to important story moments
3. When the player expects it to come, be it by clicking on something (like a conversation) or entering a new area or perhaps completing some story strong mission. 

Feel free to add more, as these are off the top of my head.  

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 19 mai 2012 - 09:00 .

[slimgrin]

Il Divo wrote...

naughty99 wrote...

In games, the story can be "shown" in pre-planned narrative cut scenes, similar to films, but I find it to be more enjoyable when experienced first hand by the player actively interacting with NPCs and the world, taking actions and making choices in the course of playing the game instead of a "time out" to watch a movie.

Still, given this approach, I find Jaffe's arguments odd, especially since he points out Batman: Arkham CIty's introduction where Bruce Wayne is restrained as an example where the game should have avoided this kind of approach.

I kind of thought that should be what we're after, since it blends gameplay/narrative by letting the player experience the first brutal view of Arkham City as a "helpless" prisoner.

Exactly. The beginning of Arkham City is what he's arguing for. But Jaffe's message is muddled in that talk anyway, and he comes across as a narrow minded baffoon.

Modifié par slimgrin, 19 mai 2012 - 09:05 .

[Megaton_Hope]

I generally like cutscenes, when there's a reason for them. They usually serve the same purpose as an 'establishing shot' in a movie, for example. Telling the player where and when the action is taking place, and what kind of action it is. Showing the scope and grandeur of the surroundings, usually in more detail than you'll be seeing otherwise. Establishing characters.

Throwing them around willy-nilly can get irritating and boring easily. It really depends on how clever the creative team is at story-telling, and how carefully they slap the graphics together.

[TheChris92]

Being a fan of MGS pretty much puts me in the "yay" section. They are integral in some games and less in others.

[Addai]

Luc0s wrote...

Ah, so you create stories for the sake of not to tell them. And when someone asks you about your stories, trying to be friendly and sincerely curious, you tell them it's none of their damn business. Yeah, that make total sense...  I thought stories are meant to be told? That's the very definition and purpose of a story anyway. 


Pffft, get over yourself.

You're not being friendly and curious, you're being an ****.  And a single player game experience is meant for the player.

[CrazyRah]

Cutscenes is a big yay for me. Been growing up with quality stuff from Blizzard mostly and a good cutscene can change my opinion so much about a game or developer

[AmstradHero]

Cutscenes are one story telling tool in a designer's bag of tricks. They are neither inherently good nor bad. Let's take a genre no-one has mentioned yet, survival horror, and use it to demonstrate the strength and weakness.

Imagine the player is exploring a house - it's a normal, regular house. It's empty, and the player had expected to meet someone there. They move around the rooms - everything is in order, nothing is disturbed, the lights work, everything is in it's regular place... then finally they reach the bedroom. They open the closed door and *bam* bloodstained walls, dismember corpse, etc. For the specific tension building purposes and the reveal of having that person dead, the gameplay and level design are the best way to convey that information. A cutscene wouldn't really do a good job here, because it removes player control and the ability for them to experience it. A cutscene would force a specific version of that experience upon the player.

As a counterpoint, consider there is a reveal where the player finds out one of their supposed allies was responsible for killing someone. A reveal via dialogue would clumsy. A reveal via the player walking in on the scene would be one option, but it means they're walking in on a murder and have no means to prevent it, which means taking control away from the player in a more galling way. In this case, a cutscene allows for specific camera angles and development to heighten the tension of the scene and allow for a reveal with the most impact.

Like any design option within a game, used well, it can be excellent. Chosen poorly, or used merely as the crutch of the default option, then of course it is not going to be a good story telling mechanism.

[bEVEsthda]

NAY

[bEVEsthda]

Luc0s wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

NAY

Wow, this must be the most insightful and constructive post I've ever seen. And such good argumentation too!

Thankyou.

[termokanden]

Did someone mention LA Noire yet? It's an OK interactive movie, but it is in my opinion very far from being a good game. I think this is a prime example that you can take cutscenes too far.

Modifié par termokanden, 20 mai 2012 - 01:42 .

[Sajji]

How many copies did Skyrim sell, anyways?

Oh no, I went there.

Modifié par Sajji, 20 mai 2012 - 01:56 .

[Sajji]

Call of Duty is the odd enigma in gaming that transcends all argumentation. Most of CoD's popularity stems from multiplayer...how are the cutscenes and storytelling in that?

[termokanden]

Sajji wrote...

Call of Duty is the odd enigma in gaming that transcends all argumentation. Most of CoD's popularity stems from multiplayer...how are the cutscenes and storytelling in that?

Yep. Everyone I knows who plays CoD plays it for the multiplayer. The last few games we didn't even finish in singleplayer. I think I was the only one who even tried.

[Rockworm503]

CrustyBot wrote..

For the record I agree with Crusty.
I had more a connection with Alyx in Half-Life 2 than anything a cutscene could do.
I'm not against cutscenes but over done and I feel like I'm better off putting in a movie.
Metal Gear Solid 4 is the worst with this ruined the entire series for me worse than ME3's endings ruined ME for me