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[DahliaLynn]

Luc0s wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

It seems you don't have an answer to what you mean by "Properly done" ...any reason?

Huh, is this comment directed towards me? What did I forget to answer what I should have answered according to you? Point it out for me and I'll try to answer it to the best of my capabilities! 

Certainly
Note the question: "Since you are pro cutscenes, how would you describe 'Properly done'? " The entire post was directed at you (the OP)

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 20 mai 2012 - 04:04 .

[Dominus]

DominusVita, what is your stance on Heavy Rain? Just curious after reading your post. Have you ever played it?

It's one of my favorite games of all time. The concept was built to be very cinematic, but it works to its merit. It's hardly more cinematic than many adventure games a la Tim Schafer's work(Monkey Island, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango), or The Longest Journey. Was there something specific you wanted to know, or just my personal feelings on its quantity of cinematics?

[DahliaLynn]

@Luc0s Indeed. Cutscenes are basically mini films -all rules apply. So basically you are expanding on the list I wrote which is excellent. I think this thread needs more of that, i.e. determining how and why cutscenes could be an important positive addition to story based games, and where they are in fact, inappropriate. 

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 20 mai 2012 - 04:20 .

[DahliaLynn]

Allacia wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...
I think it would be really cool to have a cutscene design criticism thread! 

Sorry to go off topic but just thought I'd say that a cutscene design critique thread would be most welcome.  I'd imagine such a discussion would be really helpful for people starting out making their own cutscenes in the toolset. Although I have noticed some fascinating articles linked regarding cinematic technique (the 180 degree rule for example) which has been extremely helpful ... yet an active debate with examples of cutscenes that "worked" and "why" they did or didn't work according to people's opinions would be like icing on the cake. 

...Right I'll go back to being a lurker.... (apologies to the OP!)

Tbh I really would have liked such a thread. Sadly, I doubt it would really kick off, quickly ending in the internet abyss since there aren't that many people visibly active in toolset cutscene design and film rules  

Edit: Ok, I might start one in the toolset forums ...we'll see how that pans out ...

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 20 mai 2012 - 04:28 .

[naughty99]

Cut scenes can be well written, well produced, entertaining, even emotionally engaging. However, even the best cut scenes are still a sort of "time out" from actually playing the game.

Certain kinds of more linear stories with a predefined protagonist are easier to express by producing a series of cut scenes and alternating these with gameplay levels, telling the cinematic story of this protagonist in stages (with minor variations depending on character customization or choices made by the player during gameplay).

Producing a cinematic is also hard work, of course; however, epic set pieces and dramatic moments are more challenging to implement in live gameplay. When implemented this way, the result is exhilarating because it's part of a unique story that you created through your choices. When you first climb the peak at High Hrothgar in Skyrim and meet the greybeards, having lost a companion during the long trek, for example, or when you come across a stranger in DayZ and must decide whether you can trust him, having narrowly escaped a pack of zombies and in desperate need of a blood transfusion, etc., these moments hearken back to the original pen and paper role playing games. These are the kinds of unique, player-authored narratives people have an urge to share with each other.

Due to tech limitations, videogames are obviously never going to compare to the infinite choices offered up in pen and paper RPGs, but non-linear sandbox games come closer to the heart of this experience. In a PnP game, the GM may have carefully crafted a specific adventure and the broad strokes of a campaign, but the narrative is driven by player choices and actions, with the GM usually improvising on the fly to accommodate unexpected choices. Can you imagine a PnP game comprised of sitting around listening to the GM talk for hours on end like a sequence of audio cut scenes?

Most modern RPGs express at least part of the narrative through the active gameplay, when the player talks with NPCs or interacts with the environment to solve a mystery quest, for example. In my case, the more I'm actively participating, the more I'm going to enjoy the game and the better the replay value.

I don't typically watch movies or television episodes multiple times, or read books I've read previously. Even the most entertaining cut scene loses its charm during subsequent playthroughs, so if you must include cut scenes in a game, please make them skippable.

Modifié par naughty99, 20 mai 2012 - 04:47 .

[Ghost Lightning]

Yay. For the love of god Yay.

[DahliaLynn]

Luc0s wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

Allacia wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...
I think it would be really cool to have a cutscene design criticism thread! 

Sorry to go off topic but just thought I'd say that a cutscene design critique thread would be most welcome.  I'd imagine such a discussion would be really helpful for people starting out making their own cutscenes in the toolset. Although I have noticed some fascinating articles linked regarding cinematic technique (the 180 degree rule for example) which has been extremely helpful ... yet an active debate with examples of cutscenes that "worked" and "why" they did or didn't work according to people's opinions would be like icing on the cake. 

...Right I'll go back to being a lurker.... (apologies to the OP!)

Tbh I really would have liked such a thread. Sadly, I doubt it would really kick off, quickly ending in the internet abyss since there aren't that many people visibly active in toolset cutscene design and film rules  

Edit: Ok, I might start one in the toolset forums ...we'll see how that pans out ...

I normally never post in the toolset forum, but i'd gladly share everyhing I've learned about game design and audio-visual media design.

I've studied audio-visual media for 4 years and I've studied game-design for 2 years (and still counting). I'm not an expert, but I've certainly learned a lot about this subject over the past 6 years of my life and I gladly share my knowledge with those who think they can use my knowledge for modding or creating their own cutscenes.

I'm always looking for more people to share their knowledge in film design experience and their use in games. If you would like to get some experience  in actual implemenation I highly recommend using the DA toolset cutscene editor. It will teach you a lot with regards to actually implementing cutscenes within a game, (if that is your goal) will give you hands on experience in creating actual scenes with full control of cameras, lighting, settings, voice overs, music, etc,  and specifically you will need to make important choices as to how to actually implement them once you become a proficient cutscene designer.
You are more than welcome to join us in our jouney. Feel free to join my Cutscene editor group   as well  
I'll be working on creating a Cutscene design rules and criticism thread as soon as I can in the main forums. I'll link it once I do, so feel free to join in

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 20 mai 2012 - 05:21 .

[TheMufflon]

Luc0s wrote...

Everyone who actually has played The Witcher 2, agrees with me that the cutscene I have as an example was a really powerful moment in the game.

I've played The Witcher 2, and all in all I rather liked it. But I think that cutscene is on par with what you might see in a Michael Bay film. It's nothing but a foregone conclusion slathered in melodrama. It's about as subtle as the developers beating you over the head with a sign that says "DRAMATIC TENSION AND SADNESS!!!!!".

So in the future, please do not pretend to speak for anyone but yourself. It's rude and presumptuous.

[TheMufflon]

Luc0s wrote...

No sorry. That's not true.

As a game-design student I've learned [...]

A handful of years in a college program does not make you the sole arbiter of truth, as is clearly evinced by the multitude of inept game designers out there.

These kinds of appeals to personal authority only serve to hinder meaningful discussion, and quite frankly make you come off as a buffoon.

[AmstradHero]

Luc0s wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

Force isn't really the right word for it. You might want to replace that with evoke.

Good point. English is not my first language so sometimes my choice of words might be a bit odd. But you're right, "evoke" is the word I was looking for, not "force".

Exactly.

When a scene subtly manipulates me to evoke certain feelings, it can work. When it tries to bludgeon me over the head and force me to feeling something - I find it rarely works. Or sometimes, it can work once, but after that it doesn't.

For example, take one of the early cutscenes in Mass Effect 3. You're taking off from earth, and you see a small child get on board a shuttle. Tragic, mournful piano plays, and the shuttle carrying the child is blown up by the laser. The first time you see it, this first time I saw this, in pre-release promo material, it felt quite powerful. When I played it in the game, it felt flat. I'd met this kid for a few seconds, hundreds and thousands of other people had died, but the game was forcing me to feel sad for this one child amid those casualties.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 20 mai 2012 - 08:49 .

[DahliaLynn]

AmstradHero wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

Force isn't really the right word for it. You might want to replace that with evoke.

Good point. English is not my first language so sometimes my choice of words might be a bit odd. But you're right, "evoke" is the word I was looking for, not "force".

Exactly.

When a scene subtlely manipulates me to evoke certain feelings, it can work. When it tries to bludgeon me over the head and force me to feeling something - I find it rarely works. Or sometimes, it can work once, but after that it doesn't.

For example, take one of the early cutscenes in Mass Effect 3. You're taking off from earth, and you see a small child get on board a shuttle. Tragic, mournful piano plays, and the shuttle carrying the child is blown up by the laser. The first time you see it, this first time I saw this, in pre-release promo material, it felt quite powerful. When I played it in the game, it felt flat. I'd met this kid for a few seconds, hundreds and thousands of other people had died, but the game was forcing me to feel sad for this one child amid those casualties.

Haven't played it but it sounds to me like it was either  poorly done, or poor choice of implementation

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 20 mai 2012 - 08:55 .

[DahliaLynn]

Luc0s wrote...

I'll join your group and I'll hope yo see your thread soon.

Here is is  

[Leinadi]

I think the cutscene of Foltest's death actually commits some of the most serious "crimes" (if we can be overdramatic for a second) in roleplaying games, and whatever I might've felt as to how it was composed (I do think it's waaay overdramatic when viewing it now though) was completely ruined because the game took control over Geralt away from me, and forced him to stand by like an idiot while I was literally screaming at my screen going "DON'T LET THE KING GET NEAR THAT MYSTERIOUS MONK WITH THE WEIRD ACCENT BECAUSE HE WILL SUR...ah, well, that's that then."
It also does a similar thing in the first act when you fight Letho, where you can be fighting extremely bad-ass, owning this guy and then... wham, cutscene takes over and Letho owns poor Geralt all of a sudden instead. Absolutely terrible.

I can certainly enjoy well made cutscenes. But most of my problems with "storytelling" in games is that it often makes you passive as a player. For example, Skyrim doesn't have cutscenes, sure... But it still have parts of the main story where you, as the player, just stand around listening/watching NPCs do things with no way to affect it whatsoever. Even this can be acceptable if the story is even remotely interesting, but if it's not... I can't think of anything more boring.

So I guess I just feel that any cutscenes, or scenes where the player is largely inactive, should be very carefully thought through by the developers before they put them in there. Same goes for the actual length of the things.

Modifié par Leinadi, 20 mai 2012 - 10:47 .

[Beocat]

I think this is a subject that could go either way.  From what I have been reading, people have many examples of cutscenes that work and those that don't (e.g. killcams). 

I'd say that for me, there's a handful of criteria that will bore me and irritate me with cutscenes.

1.  Too long in length.
            The number one offender on this one in my opinion are Japanese games.  I love playing Japanese games but cutscenes are heavily used to move a story and unfortunately, I have had to sit through cutscenes that were more than 20 minutes long (I think it was actually around 40 minutes -- I eventually got up and left  -  Star Ocean:  The Last Hope) in the middle of a game.  While some may call it art, when you are sitting there, unable to save your game and leave without having to skip the cutscene (which may hold some important information 29 more minutes into it).  It is frustrating, boring and more often than not, unnecessary.  My time is important and valuable to me.  Five minutes should be more than enough for a cutscene with ten minutes in unusual extraordinary circumstances.  The 20+ minute cutscenes are inexcusable.

2.  Focuses on other characters in other places  -  usually the villian
            When a cutscene is placed solely to allow for villian monologuing or foreshadowing because the developers are simply too lazy to integrate appropriate foreshading into the game, it breaks immersion because you now know something important that your protagonist may know nothing about (and usually when the big reveal happens, your protagonist is shocked while you are yawning in the background - emotionally invested?  I think not).  Occasionally, we see this used to tell how other characters feel about a certain action (usually a loved one when the hero leaves to pursue his/her quest) but those scenes tend to be more the candy than the meat of the story and thus simply add to the story rather than obliterating immersion.

Now, cutscenes can be a useful tool when you have no real other option for what you need to do.  For instance, if a special plane is flying over you and lands to abduct your friends, it might help to garner your attention to use a short cutscene to show your protagonist looking over in horror to see an attempted abduction of friends and family.  This obviously helps you prioritize things (and avoids someone later thinking, "when did this happen?").  Romance scenes, scenes of party member interaction, and introductory/closing scenes add to games in general and help flesh out bits of the game that otherwise might not be 100% initiated or controlled by the player.  It's a good use of scenes that actually add to the emotional investment of the player.  In general, most scenes don't hurt a game, but it only takes one to really break the experience.

[Joy Divison]

Luc0s wrote...

Everyone who actually has played The Witcher 2, agrees with me that the cutscene I have as an example was a really powerful moment in the game. You might not like it, you might not be into those kind of dramatic cutscenes, but you can't deny that it's a very well executed scene that is properly done according to all the film-making rules and guidelines.

The way you keep assuming "everyone" must be beholden to same perspective as you is quite amusing.