176 réponses à ce sujet

[VampireSoap]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

The guy who wrote "Curing the Genophage is Wrong"
Claimed He would kill a dog if it didn't jump for him,
and his mother if she told him what to do

Crap, I didn't cure the genophage on my first playthrough, I hope that doesn't mean I have some kind of extremely violent and disturbing urges I'm repressing.

No, I don't think he meant it that way.....

[TheClonesLegacy]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

The guy who wrote "Curing the Genophage is Wrong"
Claimed He would kill a dog if it didn't jump for him,
and his mother if she told him what to do

Crap, I didn't cure the genophage on my first playthrough, I hope that doesn't mean I have some kind of extremely violent and disturbing urges I'm repressing.

Probably not...

[Bazedragon]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

The guy who wrote "Curing the Genophage is Wrong"
Claimed He would kill a dog if it didn't jump for him,
and his mother if she told him what to do

Crap, I didn't cure the genophage on my first playthrough, I hope that doesn't mean I have some kind of extremely violent and disturbing urges I'm repressing.

Don't worry. There's a combat system to express them on! Take advantage of it! 

[Skyhawk02]

Bazedragon wrote...

To be honest, the bioware games I've played - and I'd like to assume I've played most of them - the combat and exploration are equally important tools in getting from convo A to convo B.
Now, unless you're playing some epic Jedi character in a Star Wars game who just mind tricks everyone "You will put down your weapons and surrender yourselves" *wave of hand*... you're always going to have combat in these styles of games, and I don't see Bioware changing the style of game they make.

That said, you could always ask for some more fleshed-out versions of the Mass Effect Genesis interactive comic. That would probably do it for you.

Good point, I would at least like to play a game where violence is like a last resort.  A game that made taking a life seem like a big deal, instead of just throwing countless nameless enemies at you.  

[Skyhawk02]

Bazedragon wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

Crap, I didn't cure the genophage on my first playthrough, I hope that doesn't mean I have some kind of extremely violent and disturbing urges I'm repressing.

Don't worry. There's a combat system to express them on! Take advantage of it! 

You're right!  I take back everything I said!  I now see why combat is necessary in games!

[Bazedragon]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

Bazedragon wrote...

To be honest, the bioware games I've played - and I'd like to assume I've played most of them - the combat and exploration are equally important tools in getting from convo A to convo B.
Now, unless you're playing some epic Jedi character in a Star Wars game who just mind tricks everyone "You will put down your weapons and surrender yourselves" *wave of hand*... you're always going to have combat in these styles of games, and I don't see Bioware changing the style of game they make.

That said, you could always ask for some more fleshed-out versions of the Mass Effect Genesis interactive comic. That would probably do it for you.

Good point, I would at least like to play a game where violence is like a last resort.  A game that made taking a life seem like a big deal, instead of just throwing countless nameless enemies at you.  

I admit, I found it unusual in Mass Effect 2 - where these merc gangs had seemingly endless numbers of people (eclipse were the worst - Omega, Illium, a number of random planets and Hock's guard?).
And how many scientists did Cerberus send to the Derelict Reaper? Way too many Husks there, considering I doubt it would have been collecting humans in its state, and there were no Collectors on board.

Fewer enemies in each fight, but more challenging, would probably have worked better than throwing no end of cannonfodder. And probably made the combat more meaningful in the long term. And more chances to negotiate with certain individuals would have been nice

[Vubica]

While i agree that ME's Primary strength has always been its story, it also had interesting gameplay, combat mechanics, from the weapon skill Retro throwback of ME1, to the action packed stop and pop GOW kinda fighting of ME3. I enjoyed gamplay more and more with each passing game, especially due to the dry market of third person and or/cover shooters... ill just leave u with something i found to be interesting. A buddy of mine laughed once when he tried ME3 over at my place(the man is a retired cpt.Naval infantry,) and he basicly said he found combat to feel more realistic than most modern day games...

[Bazedragon]

In all honest, Vubica - I found ME1 combat (at least, Eden Prime mission before you have your weapon skills up) made no sense - I'm playing a SpecOps soldier (generally I play sniper - so I had it worse) who can barely hold a gun.

Thank god I had the console and could put my weapon skills up a bit so that the rifle wasn't waving halfway around the planet.

[Skyhawk02]

Vubica wrote...

While i agree that ME's Primary strength has always been its story, it also had interesting gameplay, combat mechanics, from the weapon skill Retro throwback of ME1, to the action packed stop and pop GOW kinda fighting of ME3. I enjoyed gamplay more and more with each passing game, especially due to the dry market of third person and or/cover shooters... ill just leave u with something i found to be interesting. A buddy of mine laughed once when he tried ME3 over at my place(the man is a retired cpt.Naval infantry,) and he basicly said he found combat to feel more realistic than most modern day games...

It definitely sounds like Mass Effect has hit that sweet spot with balancing Gameplay and Narrative for a lot of people.  I guess I just don't want bioware's next game to be just like Mass Effect, I want them to take big risks, and create a really different kind of experience instead of just churning out the same kind of stuff.  I feel like since KOTOR, bioware has mainly been refining what they started with KOTOR.  And they have now reached the culmination of that so its time to move on IMO.

ooh, that reminds me of this awesome article that I reference a lot, and it's the basis for most of my thoughts in this thread, it's an excellent read: 
http://frictionalgam...ll-meaning.html

[bubbaboyd]

VampireSoap wrote...

Planescape torment was mostly about conversations, but it was AWESOME! Nowadays, the games just lack substance. Too much action and too little storytelling. But I guess the young people right now just care about shooting monsters and setting off the explosives..

I beg to differ my friend,(young people) is a huge generalization. I'm in my 40's and love shooting monsters and setting off explosions. If I want a good story I read a BOOK..And If I want conversations I talk to others.  

Modifié par bubbaboyd, 20 mai 2012 - 08:52 .

[Skyhawk02]

Bazedragon wrote...

In all honest, Vubica - I found ME1 combat (at least, Eden Prime mission before you have your weapon skills up) made no sense - I'm playing a SpecOps soldier (generally I play sniper - so I had it worse) who can barely hold a gun.

Thank god I had the console and could put my weapon skills up a bit so that the rifle wasn't waving halfway around the planet.

Yeah, the sniper rifle was terrible in ME1 since it was so hard to aim.

[Feanor_II]

xsdob wrote...

Why not both? Why is it never both?

This.

A conversational "game"? No thanks, I'm not interested in that kind of experience (But I didn't like either how the cut down conversation in ME3).

Modifié par Feanor_II, 20 mai 2012 - 08:54 .

[Bazedragon]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

Bazedragon wrote...

In all honest, Vubica - I found ME1 combat (at least, Eden Prime mission before you have your weapon skills up) made no sense - I'm playing a SpecOps soldier (generally I play sniper - so I had it worse) who can barely hold a gun.

Thank god I had the console and could put my weapon skills up a bit so that the rifle wasn't waving halfway around the planet.

Yeah, the sniper rifle was terrible in ME1 since it was so hard to aim.

My advice - HE rounds, and kinetic coils. That way if you miss, you normally kill anyway. [/offtopic]

[Skyhawk02]

bubbaboyd wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Planescape torment was mostly about conversations, but it was AWESOME! Nowadays, the games just lack substance. Too much action and too little storytelling. But I guess the young people right now just care about shooting monsters and setting off the explosives..

I beg to differ my friend,(young people) is a huge generalization. I'm in my 40's and love shooting monsters and setting off explosions. If I want a good story I read a BOOK..You can google that if your not familiar with the term.  

Good point, MOST people right now just care about shooting monsters and setting off the explosives.  I hope that there is room in video games for good stories too, I think video games are potentially the greatest medium for storytelling, but they have a long way to go, developer's are going to need to take chances and really try to break the mold before we will see what video games can really accomplish with storytelling.  

Thomas Grip from Frictional Games had a great presentation about this where he made this point:

In order to make the scariest game ever made they made 3 design decisions:  No Weapons, No Death, No Competitive Mechanics.

This is the kind of innovation the industry needs, doing this was totally counter-intuitive yet now his game, Amnesia, is considered by many to be the scariest game ever made.  If bioware was willing to take risks like these they could make an amazing game, but they probably never will because they care about the bottom line first.

[ShadowBrumby]

The combat in Mass Effect are a part of the storytelling and are contextual, by removing the combat you're removing part of the drama and the action. If you don't like the combat then just don't play it.

[Sierra 264]

It would cease to be a game and just be an interactive story.  Combat is a crucial part of gameplay. Go, seriously, talk the Reapers to death.

Modifié par Sierra 264, 20 mai 2012 - 09:10 .

[Skyhawk02]

Feanor_II wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Why not both? Why is it never both?

This.

A conversational "game"? No thanks, I'm not interested in that kind of experience (But I didn't like either how the cut down conversation in ME3).

Please don't be condescending with the quotation marks.  A game where you have interactive conversations with people is still a game.  Obviously this won't be everyone's cup of tea but for me I think it would be awesome, especially if Bioware made it.  To me the combat section's are just work, I don't even find those parts very entertaining.

 I think bioware put too much focus on trying to make Mass Effect "fun".  I don't playing Mass Effect because it's "fun".  I play it because it's mentally stimulating, it gets me thinking about how I would act in these situations, it makes me think about my own morality.  It allows me to experience emotions that I wouldn't get to otherwise.  I get to meet aliens that couldn't exist in real life.  That's just some of the things.

I would have liked ME3 better with more conversations too, we agree on that at least.

[Skyhawk02]

Sierra 264 wrote...

It would cease to be a game and just an interactive story.

Semantics, whether it is a "game" or not has nothing to do with whether it is worth experiencing.

[Icinix]

The combat has always been tertiary in Mass Effect for me to the point where I would happily fork out my $80 or whatever for it if the combat weren't in it.

What I like about it is the exploration, the conversations, the choices. They were things very cut out in ME3 - but were there in ME1 very strongly and still somewhat in ME2.

My best memories of all three games are the moments when I see a choice play out or I stumble across something the game didn't direct me through as part of its story.

Combat in ME3 is fun for sure, but its one part of the series that wouldn't phase me if it was out.

You take the dialogue choices and decisions out of it though - then I wouldn't buy it.

Modifié par Icinix, 20 mai 2012 - 09:15 .

[Bazedragon]

Sierra 264 wrote...

It would cease to be a game and just be an interactive story.  Combat is a crucial part of gameplay. Go, seriously, talk the Reapers to death.

The sims say Hi.
Wait, they have combat now. ARGH! And no story.

But seriously, not all games have combat. Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy had a game which was a command prompt in which you told Arthur Dent what to do (was really fun getting repeatedly killed by them dang bulldozers.)
Not sure if it can still be found anywhere. Then again, if you know the story there's probably little challenge in the game.
Then there's Lemmings. (did that have a story?)

[Icinix]

Bazedragon wrote...

Sierra 264 wrote...

It would cease to be a game and just be an interactive story.  Combat is a crucial part of gameplay. Go, seriously, talk the Reapers to death.

The sims say Hi.
Wait, they have combat now. ARGH! And no story.

But seriously, not all games have combat. Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy had a game which was a command prompt in which you told Arthur Dent what to do (was really fun getting repeatedly killed by them dang bulldozers.)
Not sure if it can still be found anywhere. Then again, if you know the story there's probably little challenge in the game.
Then there's Lemmings. (did that have a story?)

Also how many point and click games were made through the 90's? How many adventure games in various forms have been made that don't have combat - things like Myst as well.

They're still games - don't get me wrong, I like action, combat etc - but I take issue with people saying without it they are not games.

[Bazedragon]

Icinix wrote...

The combat has always been tertiary in Mass Effect for me to the point where I would happily fork out my $80 or whatever for it if the combat weren't in it.

What I like about it is the exploration, the conversations, the choices. They were things very cut out in ME3 - but were there in ME1 very strongly and still somewhat in ME2.

My best memories of all three games are the moments when I see a choice play out or I stumble across something the game didn't direct me through as part of its story.

Combat in ME3 is fun for sure, but its one part of the series that wouldn't phase me if it was out.

You take the dialogue choices and decisions out of it though - then I wouldn't buy it.

I would have liked some more exploration in ME3. But then the Reapers would have won while I was busy picking daisies with Tali on some planet at the edge of the galaxy.

ADDED: Admittedly. I'd have probably preferred that ending. Just saying. 

Modifié par Bazedragon, 20 mai 2012 - 09:22 .

[Sierra 264]

Icinix wrote...

Bazedragon wrote...

Sierra 264 wrote...

It would cease to be a game and just be an interactive story.  Combat is a crucial part of gameplay. Go, seriously, talk the Reapers to death.

The sims say Hi.
Wait, they have combat now. ARGH! And no story.

But seriously, not all games have combat. Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy had a game which was a command prompt in which you told Arthur Dent what to do (was really fun getting repeatedly killed by them dang bulldozers.)
Not sure if it can still be found anywhere. Then again, if you know the story there's probably little challenge in the game.
Then there's Lemmings. (did that have a story?)

Also how many point and click games were made through the 90's? How many adventure games in various forms have been made that don't have combat - things like Myst as well.

They're still games - don't get me wrong, I like action, combat etc - but I take issue with people saying without it they are not games.

You have obviously misunderstood what I said. What would be the aim in a game that has millions of people dying and you're a Commander who's not even going to fight them?

EDIT: What would be your aim?

Modifié par Sierra 264, 20 mai 2012 - 09:27 .

[Skyhawk02]

Sierra 264 wrote...

You have obviously misunderstood what I said. What would be the aim in a game that has millions of people dying and you're a Commander who's not even going to fight them?

Even with all the fighting that happens in the Mass Effect games I seriously doubt Shepard put much of a dent in the Reaper Population.  Fighting with ships would be cool though, I think they should have let you make decisions during the ship battles about what tactics you want to use.

[Icinix]

Bazedragon wrote...

Icinix wrote...

The combat has always been tertiary in Mass Effect for me to the point where I would happily fork out my $80 or whatever for it if the combat weren't in it.

What I like about it is the exploration, the conversations, the choices. They were things very cut out in ME3 - but were there in ME1 very strongly and still somewhat in ME2.

My best memories of all three games are the moments when I see a choice play out or I stumble across something the game didn't direct me through as part of its story.

Combat in ME3 is fun for sure, but its one part of the series that wouldn't phase me if it was out.

You take the dialogue choices and decisions out of it though - then I wouldn't buy it.

I would have liked some more exploration in ME3. But then the Reapers would have won while I was busy picking daisies with Tali on some planet at the edge of the galaxy.

ADDED: Admittedly. I'd have probably preferred that ending. Just saying. 

lol - look for sure.

But where do you draw the lines with it being a game? Should you remove save games and force people to play it in one sitting? Should you elimate romances and fun side variations because they're not direct conflict with the Reapers?

How much of the game do you remove so that there can be an imaginary time line - do you put a timer on the top of the screen and make everything happen at certain events?

I can only speak for myself - but a game that has 30 hours of non-stop war in your face does not sound like fun to me. Not being able to explore the game world in my own time is a huge put off of the game - and those things are certainly there for people who want those things. If you don't like them because the Reapers well win, they're totally optional and you don't have to touch them.